Tinto Maps #19 - 20th of September 2024 - India

[Ispil]

Kabul and Ghazna should probably be low on the development side of things:

 

[wkscrombie]

Narwhal

Yes. What I meant to ask was will they be their own trade good?

 

[Ekyman]

Yes. What I meant to ask was will they be their own trade good?

Iceland and Greenland both have ivory-producing locations.

 

[yoohhethesn]

It would definitely be great if an hindu Indian tag conquers back the provinces from isalmic tags in the subcontinents the provinces name that are islamic or persian in origin should change back to pre-invasion hindu ones, which doesn't happen in EU4 currently.
It would make sense historically.

 

[yoohhethesn]

Also the names of the locations are also important to check, as a lot of Indian history research happened either in the colonial period or happens in english, province names change too for example according to me Kanauj (as in the location map thats been presented) shouldn't be called that, as it was the british in the 19th century who called it that, if we look at the time period it has only been a 300 years or a little more since the fall of the city of kanyakabuja, which has often beeen reffered to as the great imperial capital by visiting scholars so i propose that either it should be called that or Kannoj as thats what alberuni called so it would make ense for the delhi sultans to do that too, but any hindu nation of the subcontinent especially the ones from north india and deccan should call it kankyabuja( as it its written in CK3) considering onc3 3 empires from these regions were fighting for control of this city for multiple decades

This ofcourse is just one example there many many more and i think an indepth check has to be done for all the province names.
I would love to do that but sadly i myself am not aware of south or deccan history to that extent to give every single province.


ALSO The development of Dalutabad should match delhi's as ibn batuta compares the city and call them equal in population the city was also chosen as the capital by muhmmad bin tughluq for some time

Therefore the dev should be far higher than it is being showed in the map mode
and whenever a non islamic or non christian tag conquers Dalautabad especially in the first 200 years of the game the name should revert to devagiri as it Devagiri had only been renamed to Dalutabad in 1329, it would make historical sense that the hindu tags, especially from the region ,would rechange the name.

 

[yoohhethesn]

Another point Mewar( oh my glorious mewar) is the vassal of delhi in the maps, if i don't have the timeline start date wrong that shouldn't be the case as Maharana Hammir Singh took back chittor and mewar back from delhi in 1326 and while doing so put on so many defeats on the sultans of delhi that all of Rajputana was liberated from Tughluq influence and got mewar the influence and position which would allow it to be a major player in North India during the medival times( EU4's timeframe)

Hope this gets changed.

 

[Bishweshwar]

Another point Mewar( oh my glorious mewar) is the vassal of delhi in the maps, if i don't have the timeline start date wrong that shouldn't be the case as Maharana Hammir Singh took back chittor and mewar back from delhi in 1326 and while doing so put on so many defeats on the sultans of delhi that all of Rajputana was liberated from Tughluq influence and got mewar the influence and position which would allow it to be a major player in North India during the medival times( EU4's timeframe)

Hope this gets changed.

This is true, I agree. Mewar should also control Ajmer, Rathambore, and Nagaur, as they won all of those from Delhi after their victory at Singoli in 1336. I believe Mewar's borders in 1337 should look something like this:

 

[Ru8bin]

Follow-up to Limbuwan post (w/ Visualization):

As I explained in my last post, the area of Limbuwan is quite poorly depicted in this TM, with many inaccuracies and odd choices for locations, as well as massive demographic inaccuracies. Given the location density of surrounding areas (mainly Upper Kosi), I felt that it was good for Limbuwan to have an additional location, which will be explained below:

1. I can’t find any historical record of Phakphok during this period, even then it would be overshadowed, as a village, by the kingdoms that often ruled it: Ilam and Jhapa. Either Ilam or Jhapa would work for this location, but Ilam would be better since Jhapa is commonly thought of as being part of Morang (essentially a historical kingdom that would usually span south of the mountains of Limbuwan)
2. Rajanari is an orchard lake that has quite a bit of cultural importance, but not much in the way of actual substance, especially when Terhathum/Terhthum was present in the same area, being one of the many kingdoms that has historically inhabited that region of Limbuwan.
3. Ranibas falls under the same umbrella that Phakphok does, that being it has few to no records prior to the 1800s and it was irrelevant when compared to a kingdom of Limbuwan that has historically existed in its place, here that kingdom is Dhankuta.
4. The Kuchenjunga mountains lie here which consist of some of the highest mountains in the world (Kuchenjunga is itself #3) and is by no means passable, hence it should be impassable.
5. Phedap has been added because it would not make sense for it to extend into Terhathum, and instead has been added as a separate location. Phedap was the historical kingdom that existed in this portion of Limbuwan, but more than that, it was the most important kingdom in the east and later became the most important kingdom in Limbuwan as they proceeded to conquer all of Morang, causing the dissolution of a united Limbuwan in 1609. Given current goods produced in Phedap, taken from Nepalarchives.com, I’d say that livestock would be the best fit as an RGO.

It should also be noted:

• Vijayapur should be renamed to Bijayapur, as it was the name in use during PC’s time period and only changed to Vijayapur in 1774.
• Halesi could be replaced with Khotang, but I don’t think it's necessary as the Halesi-Maratika caves had extreme cultural importance as far back as the 12th century, while Khotang gained importance later into the game cycle.
• If need be, an additional location could be added between Chainpur and Dudhakunda called Sankhuwashava (a large traditional kingdom in Limbuwan in this area), although I don't recommend it solely due to location density concerns, although it would certainly fit within the pixel count.
• Rename Lower Kosi province to Limbuwan, as that is essentially what it is while Upper Kosi was ruled over by Limbuwan, it wasn’t Limbuwan proper.
• Development should be lowered across both Upper Kosi and Lower Kosi.

Demographics:

Currently the demographics of Limbuwan are incorrect, with the Newar culture being the majority and Hindu also being the majority. This is incorrect as the migration that brought both the Newari people and Hindu pops occurred in the 1790s, according to Mahesh Regmi in his “Land Tenure and Taxation in Nepal” (1965), at not before the start date. This changes the current setup in the Province of Lower Kosi where there should be few, if any, Hindu and Newar pops. Instead, Limbu should be the majority culture (except in Chaudandi), potentially with Yakkha minorities (although I’m assuming they’ll be wrapped into some sort of combined culture like Khasa, credit to Ru8bin). Similarly, Hindu should barely be present (except in Chaudandi), being replaced by Mundhum Kiratism with a small minority in general shamanism (as is currently represented).

Chaudandi is generally not considered to be a part of the Limbuwan area now, but during the start date it was (until it got taken by the Gorkha Kingdom), but it should be noted that it had consistent contact with Hinduism because of the relatively easily navigable terrain (compared with the rest of Limbuwan). Still, it was hard to reach and out of the way, and ruled by non-Indo European groups not too far related from the Limbu, so either Shamanism or Mundhum Kiratism. As for culture, that depends on whether or not Limbu is combined with others similar to it, if it is, it should have a ~15% minority, if it isn’t then it should only barely be present.

Halesi is also odd, as it lies at the boundary between the Limbu and other groups, so it should receive a minority as Dhankuta, in reality, cut into the shape of Halesi slightly.

Edit: Also, how will the Kipat land tenure system be represented? as it was massively important to Limbuwan throughout the games life cycle. I understand the scope of the game, but this was large enough that it should be represented in some way (Law, Cultural aspect, etc).
Edit 2: The borders drawn for Phedap are approximate, not exact, and likely need some refining based on local geography. This would likely mean taking less off of Phakphok (Hopefully to become Ilam or Jhapa) and taking more off of Rajanari (Hopefully to become Terhathum) to better coincide with geography and historical borders of both Panthar and Phedap when compared to Terhathum. In a similar manner, Taplejung's southern half of its western border should probably be extended a little further west (not enough to hit Ranibas, hopefully to be Dhankuta). None of these location border changes should affect roads or pathfinding (other than the addition of Phedap which should border Taplejung, Ilam, Dhankuta, and Yuksom), its almost solely for cosmetics rather than gameplay.

I think that Limbuwan was more of a loose confederation rather than a unified kingdom in 1337. The ten kingdoms were part of the Yakthung Chumlung.

Moreover, Limbuwan was situated to the east of the Dudhkoshi River, extending to the Teesta River in the south and bordered by Tibet in the north and purnia in south. The regions of Dudkunda and Okhaldhunga lie west of the Dudhkoshi. Some literature I’ve encountered suggests that these areas were ruled by the Kirats but does not mention a unified Limbuwan kingdom. Perhaps IO would be a more accurate representation than a unified kingdom.

I may be missing some facts, or there may be historical evidence indicating a unified Limbuwan. However, given the granularity of the maps I have seen, it seems reasonable to question why the ten independent kingdoms cannot be represented separately.

​

 

[King_Potat]

I think that Limbuwan was more of a loose confederation rather than a unified kingdom in 1337. The ten kingdoms were part of the Yakthung Chumlung.

Moreover, Limbuwan was situated to the east of the Dudhkoshi River, extending to the Teesta River in the south and bordered by Tibet in the north and purnia in south. The regions of Dudkunda and Okhaldhunga lie west of the Dudhkoshi. Some literature I’ve encountered suggests that these areas were ruled by the Kirats but does not mention a unified Limbuwan kingdom. Perhaps IO would be a more accurate representation than a unified kingdom.

I may be missing some facts, or there may be historical evidence indicating a unified Limbuwan. However, given the granularity of the maps I have seen, it seems reasonable to question why the ten independent kingdoms cannot be represented separately.

​

Agreed, but the locations aren't quite granular enough to represent most of the dynamics between the individual kingdoms (which changed quite a lot despite the ten kingdoms name). Besides, they tend act as one polity when dealing with foreign powers outside Limbuwan, so having them be one tag is not the worst idea. Although certainly not the most accurate, its an abstraction I can accept given the scope of PC and the relative unimportance of Limbuwan during the games time span, especially if it is represented as an extremely decentralized nation through some law or system of decentralization I assume exists as decentralized tribes in Central Arabia are represented as polities.

The idea of a unified Limbuwan is mostly just the individual kingdoms of Limbuwan not completely fighting w/ each other while maintaining a good degree of freedom from outside states, hence why I used that wording. Sorry if that was confusing.

 

[akshitgaur1239]

Hey, @Pavía, could you please provide a feedback if doing nearly 40 kingdoms is even possible for Garhwal, because if it is not, I will move to Kumaon now, you know if it turns out I pour all that sweat into determining what was the raw resource of some small province of Garhwal-Tibet border only for it to turn out that the entire border area has been represented as just impassable terrain. (PS: You have done more density in northern Italy though)

 

[Bishweshwar]

I've already talked about the religious and cultural situations in Sindh, so now I'll touch on the political situation. I only really have two real comments for now:

- Change Sindh's dynasty from Muhammad Tur to Soomra
- Add the Sodhas of Amerkot as a one-location-minor in Nagarparkar, and give them cores on the rest of the Tharparkar province (given that they only lost those lands to the Soomras in 1330). The Sodhas should be ruled by Rana Aasrao Sodha

 

[Ispil]

Hey, @Pavía, could you please provide a feedback if doing nearly 40 kingdoms is even possible for Garhwal, because if it is not, I will move to Kumaon now, you know if it turns out I pour all that sweat into determining what was the raw resource of some small province of Garhwal-Tibet border only for it to turn out that the entire border area has been represented as just impassable terrain. (PS: You have done more density in northern Italy though)

Pavia's going on vacation soon, so honestly just go for it.

 

[akshitgaur1239]

Pavia's going on vacation soon, so honestly just go for it.

To heck with it then, let's go!!

 

[PerhapsItsChondoLal]

SATGAON SULTANATE

First, a new province I'm proposing to add is in black. It's Bandel, a major mint town under the Bengal Sultanate (see Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier) as well as a Portuguese factory in the 18th century. Pandua looks too big and weird.

Renamings: Husaynabad is definitely wrong. It referred to either Gaur-Lakhnauti itself or a suburb of it. You can use Basirhat, which was a major mint city, or Kalikata, one of the villages that made up the area later called Kolkata.
Pipli is a minor village, so using it seems odd. You can use Chakdah - which is another village, yeah, but was a mint town under the Sultanate.
Nadia is fine? But it's short for Nabadwip - so that can be used, I suppose. Nabadwip was the centre of Sanskrit scholarship in Sultanate Bengal. (Husain Shahi Bengal)
Baragram is also a village AFAIK. You can replace it with the pilgrimage centre of Tarapith, a site flocked to by tantriks of all stripes since ancient times.
Chandrabad is also weird. Firstly, if it's referring to the apocryphal birthplace of Alauddin Husain Shah, that's Chandpara. Chandrabad was in Cumilla. You can use mint cities of Mahalbari or Margram.
I have no idea how old Sreepur is - probably not old enough. You can use Naohata or Wazir-Beldanga.
Jhenaidah is a new name. You can use Barobazar, or it's older name of Champanagar

Several Sufi dervishes started to propagate Islam in Jessore after this period including Syed Shahadat Ali. In the mid-15th century, the Sultan of Bengal appointed Khan Jahan Ali as the ruler of Khalifatabad, which included the greater Jessore region.[8] Ali resided in Champanagar (renamed Baro Bazar after his 12 disciples), which served as a centre of medieval Bengali civilisation.

For Khulna, a British-era city, you can use Iswaripur the capital of Pratapditya, one of the Baro-Bhuiyans.
Qasba is actually the old name of Jessore, and not Barisal as you have depicted it as, so you can replace Barisal with Bakla, it's older name and Jessore with Qasba.
Kulpi is also a village which you can replace with Gangasagar, another major centre of pilgrimage for Hindus.

RGOs: Once again, having wheat is quite odd for Bengal. You can replace it with more rice.
It is mentioned that long pepper grew in the Mahmudabad tract (North Nadia, North Jessore and West Faridpur), so spices seem like a fitting RGO there.
Khalifatabad/Bagerhat (South Jessore and West Bakarganj) possessed herds of wild elephant - so elephants, ivory and lumber as a good seem ideal. Well, these goods should only be in the jungle/forest provinces and not the urban/farmland ones.

Misc: Jungles should be added to the Sunderbans (suprised they aren't already). Please give the very important port city of Satgaon a port connection.

 

[Flower_Marlin]

Noted a few issues/mistakes:

The province in Baramahal in the south - is mistakenly named as Barahamal.
The borders of the Hoysala lands doesn't seem the include the prospective location of the city of Tiruvannamalai, which at the time was the Hoysala capital. The Hoysalas were stationed there so as to more succesfully deal with the Delhi/Ma'bar invasion.

 

[Rajputs]

@Trin Tragula I'm so happy for you that you're getting to work on your favourite region for a second time and this time in even more detail! So very much looking forward to this game when it comes out.

Some suggestions below:
Gujarat:
1) Nagnes (renamed Nagna), Chhaya, Bhanwad and Morbi shoudl be under the Jethwas. Even though an invasion by Jam Bamaniyo had reduced the city of Ghumli to ruins, it wasn't until the rise of Jam Rawal in the 1500s that the Jadejas obtained control over these areas.

2) Dwarka should be under the Vadhel dynasty and independent, or under Kutch or Jethwa for simplicity.

3) Palitana renamed Talaja, Lathi renamed Palitana and with Talaja under a the Vala dynasty and Palitana under the Gohils.

4) More ports - Khambhat, Mandvi (Kutch), Somnath, DIu, Chhaya, Nagnah, Dwarka, Surat etc. almost every province can be a port of some stature.

5) Saurashtra region should be represented by the Saurashtrian or Kathiawari or Sorathi cultures, distinct from Gujarati. GIven Rajasthan's subcultures are represented there's no need to classify Saurashtra and Gujarat together. This would also include Eastern Kutch.

6) Saurashtra as a minority culture in Tamil provinces (this should probably be distinct from the culture in Saurashtra).

7) Diu as Jungle and Island and more farmland provinces such as Chhaya, Bhanwad, Junagadh, Somnath etc. I think India could do with more farmlands in general - even where the climate may be arid, India's fertile soils and the monsoon means that even these areas are often good for agriculture.

8) Northern Gujarat can be represented under the Vaghela dynasty as vassals of Delhi. These Vaghela's ruled as tributaries even after the end of the Vaghela kingdom and would later re-establish princely states in the 1700s.

9) Bhanwad, Dwarka, Chhaya and Gondal can be part of the Barda province.

10) Lata province can have a separate culture as well, as Gujarati really refers to Gujarat proper.

11) Radhanpur -> Lunawada
Dhangadhra -> Halvad - Split into Thangadh and Halvad
Morvi -> Dheldinagar or Morbi
Broach -> Bharuch
Deodar - Split into Tharad, Deodar
Patan - Split into Siddhpur, Mehsana, Anhilwad Patan
Dholka - Split into Patdi, Viramgam, Dholka
Gondal - Split into Dhank, Jetpur and Atkot
Somnath - extended to the East and Western portions becoming part of Madhavpur
Junagadh - Split into Vamansthali and Junagadh
Sihor - Split into Ghogha, Sihor and Vallabhipur
Modasa Split into Prantij, Modasa
Surat/Daman - Split into Navsari, Valsad, Surat, Daman

Rajasthan:
1) Bundi and Kota should be under the Hada Chauhan's who have been ruling there since the 1200s not the Meenas.

2) Kiradu and Gudmalani should be ruled by the Rathores

3) Bijnot and Nawakot should be under Jaisalmer

4) Cholistan should be Marwari culture

5) Mewar under Rana Hammir had become independent of the Delhi Sultanate by this point in time, following the Batlle of Singoli. The rural lands of Ajmer, Ranthambore and Nagaur would find themselves back under Rajput control, while the Sultanate authority was limited to the urban areas of Ajmer and Nagaur.

Sindh:
1) No evidence to suggest any Buddhists still remained in SIndh by that point and almost all primary and secondary sources seem to point to a large a large Muslim minority and a Hindu majority.

EDIT: 2) Soomras can be shown ruling Tharparkar except the location of Nagarparkar which would be under the Sodhas.

3) Wanga Bazar -> Mithi
Vingar -> Diplo
Islamgarh -> Ratokot
Islamkot -> Burdiano
Umarkot -> Amarkot

4) Sibi should be Sindhi culture

Punjab:
1) Punjabi - Seraiki culture split

2) Pahadi/Pahari culture shown in Pothwar and Dogri in Punjabi Hills.

Overall it seems location density in India could be improved as there are fewer locations in comparison to places in Europe.

 

[Bishweshwar]

2) Soomras can be shown ruling Tharparkar except the location of Amarkot which would be under the Sodhas.

Amarkot was retaken by the Soomras in 1330, with the Sodhas only being left with Nagarparkar until they finally reconquered Amarkot in 1439

 

[Ru8bin]

Agreed, but the locations aren't quite granular enough to represent most of the dynamics between the individual kingdoms (which changed quite a lot despite the ten kingdoms name). Besides, they tend act as one polity when dealing with foreign powers outside Limbuwan, so having them be one tag is not the worst idea. Although certainly not the most accurate, its an abstraction I can accept given the scope of PC and the relative unimportance of Limbuwan during the games time span, especially if it is represented as an extremely decentralized nation through some law or system of decentralization I assume exists as decentralized tribes in Central Arabia are represented as polities.

The idea of a unified Limbuwan is mostly just the individual kingdoms of Limbuwan not completely fighting w/ each other while maintaining a good degree of freedom from outside states, hence why I used that wording. Sorry if that was confusing.

The simplification of Limbuwan as a single polity presents several critical issues. First, reducing the Kirats to one tag overlooks the unique governance structures and internal rivalries that defined them, erasing essential political and cultural nuances. While the Limbus were allied, representing them as a unified entity misrepresents the distinct autonomy of each kingdom. Additionally, the Wallo (near) and Majh (middle) Kirat regions must be distinguished from Limbuwan; when the Gorkha Kingdom launched its campaign, it first annexed Khambuwan before confronting the united forces of Pallo Kirat (Limbuwan), highlighting the separate identities and alliances within these areas. Moreover, the rise of a new king in Limbuwan typically signified the addition of an overlord rather than the removal of existing rulers. Even the Gorkha rulers maintained the kipat system and the subbas until the reign of King Mahendra.

The concept of relative importance is highly subjective; the significance of any kingdom or region can vary greatly based on context and perspective. Furthermore, the granularity of representation could be improved; countries like France and Italy have three to four times the location density, making it feasible to add a few more locations to accurately depict Limbuwan's complexity(india only has 1000 locations or so, so far). A more nuanced representation, such as a confederation model or recognition of individual kingdoms with shared diplomatic ties, would better reflect Limbuwan’s decentralized nature and historical significance.

If this approach is applied to Limbuwan, a similar methodology could extend to other regions in Nepal, including the latter: Chaubise and Baisse Rajya. Consequently, these areas might be reduced to mere tags, similar to representations in EU4. Moreover, distinguishing between separate kingdoms would simulate the power dynamics experienced during the Gorkha-Limbuwan War, enriching the historical and political context of the region.

Edit:Just wanted to add that Sikkim being a separate kingdom makes zero sense. It should be under limbuwan if following the perspective of same tag since the area till Teesta was part of limbuwan .

 

[Bishweshwar]

If this approach is applied to Limbuwan, a similar methodology could extend to other regions in Nepal, including the latter: Chaubise and Baisse Rajya. Consequently, these areas might be reduced to mere tags, similar to representations in EU4. Moreover, distinguishing between separate kingdoms would simulate the power dynamics experienced during the Gorkha-Limbuwan War, enriching the historical and political context of the region.

Perhaps Limbuwan can be represented as an IO, composing of ten separate kingdoms. The mechanics to represent a confederation already exist in game, so might as well use them.

 

[theEXPERTpt]

I come here to request that Thana location (nowadays close to Bombay) is renamed Salsette or atleast made an island. There was singificant land reclamation that made it a peninsula like today.