Tinto Maps #23 - 18th of October 2024 - China

[blue0china]

This level of granularity is really exciting! It's just that the historical accuracy of the names is still a big issue, and I hope it can be improved with the help of the community.

Here are some of my previous comments on the naming of some locations and provinces.

Regarding the suggestions on dynamic place names, perhaps I should wait until you publish the map of that region, but since Beijing was mentioned, I would like to share some thoughts for your consideration.

Firstly, the name “Beijing” itself. As many people know, “Beijing” means the capital of the north, and this name was not the official name of that city for a long time. For example, about sixty years before the start of the game during the Song dynasty, Beijing referred to another city (the same goes for Nanjing), and the Jurchen Jin dynasty of the same period also had its own Beijing. Therefore, I believe that if the capital of the Chinese regime that replaces the Yuan dynasty in the game is not in Dadu, then calling that place “Beijing” is meaningless. A possible alternative name is 北平（Beiping or Peiping） which was not only the official name used by the government of the Republic of China in Taipei until 2005 but also the name of the city from the time the Ming dynasty occupied Dadu until the capital was moved there (1368-1402). Another possible name is 燕山（Yanshan）, which was the name during the brief Han Chinese restoration of the area from the khitan at the end of the Northern Song dynasty (1122-1125). There is also 幽州（Youzhou）, an ancient name used by the Tang dynasty and earlier dynasties.

Furthermore, considering that in Project Caesar, we have a level of division finer than province, namely location, it is worth discussing at which level “Beijing” or its alternative names should be applied. Looking at the map near Shandong that Johan showed to us a few weeks ago, the size of 府（Fu） or 路（Lu） during the Yuan, Ming, and Ch’ing dynasties is closer to that of a province, while 縣（Hsien, counties） are closer to locations. However, a tricky issue is that at that time in China, some Fu’s capital like Beijing or Xi’an were governed by two to three counties. In terms of the game’s concept, this means that the capital of some provinces is not in one location but at the junction of two to three locations. Obviously, this is not feasible in the game. Therefore, either merge those two/three counties into one location or carve out a new location named after the province where the capital is located. I personally prefer the latter because I like finer granularity. Speaking of which, the Fu where Beijing was located was called 順天（Shuntian, means “Obedience to the heaven） during the Ming and Qing dynasties, a name reserved for the imperial capital, just like 應天（Yingtian, means “Responding to the heaven”） for Nanjing during the Ming dynasty. So perhaps these names should also be avoided as generic names in the game.

My English is very poor, and this was written with the help of translation software. I hope it is not unclear or offensive in any way.

I don't have any good ideas about East Asian religions. However, in ancient and modern times, if we call a Buddhist a worshipper of Confucius, generally speaking, the other person will not feel offended. For a long period of time, if we called a Confucian a believer in Buddha, he would take it as an accusation of superstition. Therefore, I personally feel that if there is no good way, it is better to call it Confucianism than Buddhism.

 

[Jia Xu]

Now, before closing off, let me turn back once again to the subject of religion, as it has already been pointed out that having a single Mahayana religion covering both China and Tibet (and parts of India) may not be the best both for accuracy and gameplay reasons, and we basically agree with it so we are planning on reworking a bit but it hasn’t been done in time for this Tinto Maps. However, as we are aware that you are not able to provide proper feedback unless we present you something, let me now share with you what are our plans with it. Please keep in mind that I will NOT go into details about their mechanics, and only talk about their distribution.

First of all, Tibetan Buddhism will be split and turned into its own religion. Although it “technically” is part of the Mahayana branch, it is true that its practices have distinguished it from Chinese Buddhism enough to represent it as its own religion, starting from the fact that they do not follow the same canon. The Mahayana that was present in India was already an outlier from start, so it will be made into its own religion.

That leaves out that the current “Mahayana” remaining in game will be Chinese Buddhism, that is, those following the Chinese Buddhist canon, and it will be present in China, Korea, and Vietnam. The question remains on what to call the religion, and several things have to be considered for that:

1. The religion will already include blended into it Confucianism and Daoism besides Buddhism, so all three religions are included. That means it can’t be named either Confucianism or Daoism, as they have been bundled in. Buddhism was taken as the base name because, from the three, it was considered as the one mostly oriented towards the “religious” (Confucianism being more focused on administration and Daoism on rituals), and the most similar to what an organized religion would be outside of China.
   1. As a subpoint on that, and I can’t go into details for it yet, but there will also be options inside it to favor Buddhism over Confucianism or the opposite, so that is already covered too.
2. As mentioned, it will be present not only in China but also in Korea and Vietnam (and any other country that may convert too, like for example Japan), so naming it something that’s too intrinsic to Chinese identity would not be ideal. That would mean that a term like Sānjiào, although good, would feel a bit out of place when playing for example as Korea (we know that the concept spread there too, but it was more prominent inside China and regardless having the name be directly in Chinese would be the main issue when playing outside China)

So, for now, the current name we are considering for the religion is directly “Chinese Buddhism”, or even leaving it as “Mahayana”, understanding that the main current of Mahayana is the version following the Chinese canon anyway. But feel free to suggest any alternative naming if you feel that there may be a better option we haven’t thought of, as long as it takes into consideration the previous points. And of course, let us know your feedback on the proposed representation and distribution too.

And that’s it for today, after a bit longer closing than usual. Next week we’ll be back a bit further east, taking a look at Korea and Japan. Hope to see you there!

Mahayana isn't wrong. Mahayana is dominant in China and in countries experiencing the most Chinese cultural influence. Using it to represent Chinese Buddhism is fine.

With that said, the most dominant sub-sect of Mahayana in China is Jìngtǔzōng (Pure Land). If you want explicit Chinese flavour for the Buddhism in the country, that's the biggest one by far.

 

[GreatSouthShawarma]

Yuan should be blue on the map imo. Ideally dark blue, but definitely not green. Blue's the color most often associated with the Mongols (I think due to tengriism). Plus it would just look nicer, and contrast better with Delhi on the map which is also light green. Also, as somebody mentioned here before, it would make more sense to call it "Great Yuan" rather than Yuan dynasty.

 

[Huskermax5]

Is it just me or are the markets a bit too dense?

 

[Aldaron]

My suggestions about cultures as a Chinese Muslim.
1. I think the Xinan culture should split into Hubei, Sichuan (or Bashu) and Yungui. Yungui represents Han in Yunnan and Guizhou (here already exits Han migrants in Yuan dynasty). And If there exist a Hubei culture, Jianghuai culture do not need the tail to the west.
2. The Dongbei culture should split into Youyan and Dongbei. Youyan culture is around Beijing and should have some poplation in nowadays Chengde（承德） and Chifeng（赤峰）. Place near Jinzhou（锦州） is Dongbei culture and this culture should extend to nowadays Liaodong peninsula, as far as Yalu river. If you read Laoqida（老乞大）, you can see in Liaodong peninsula Han'er language（汉儿言语）is widely used.
3. Zhongyuan culture should split into Zhongyuan and Qinlong（秦陇）. The latter one represents Han in Shaanxi and Gansu, and can be merged with Lanyin. Han in Hexi corridor can have a seperate culture, though.
4. I do not think there must exist a seperate Hui culture. There should exist Muslim population in every Chinese culture except Hakka, Huizhou and Gan. There should also have some Muslim population in Bai culture. I can offer many resources about Muslim distributions for you.
5. There should have a seperate Baima（白马, or Di/氐） culture from Amdowa.
6. Miao and Mien culture in nowadays China-Vietnam border is strange. They come here hundred years later.
7. I do not know whether the green culture near nowadays Guogan（Kokang，果敢）is Kokang or not. Kokang is Yungui culture. Enough
8. Jurchen culture should not extend into Liaoxi area especially in steppe areas like nowadays Fuxin（阜新）, Chaoyang（朝阳） and Chifeng（赤峰）.
9. Tangut culture should extend into nowadays Ningxia plain but now not include Guyuan (which was control by Song), and there should have some Muslim population in Tangut culture and maybe Amdowa culture. They are the ancestors of many Hui people in today's China.
10. Small Tumed Mongol could be Muslim.

Would you please copy our map and draw your suggestions on it? Also, if you could provide sources and what dates they refer to would be great.

I invite any other forum user to use the same system as it would be easier to implement those suggestions.

The map created by Paradox is correct, referring to the Chinese Historical Atlas

We indeed used this Atlas as reference to draw this area.

Hm, main culture I can think of that might be missing is She. Did you guys decide that was too granular?

She people are in the map.

 

[hoangden]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but the Vietnamese population is unacceptably low. Most of the sources have estimated the Vietnamese population ranged between 2 million to 3 million at the start date. I shall include some references below:

[1] LIEBERMAN, V., & BUCKLEY, B. (2012). The Impact of Climate on Southeast Asia, circa 950–1820: New Findings. Modern Asian Studies, 46(05), 1049–1096.
"Accordingly, the population in northern Vietnam grew from an estimated 1,600,000 in 1000 to 3,000,000 in 1300"
"Vietnam has higher population density than Angkor and Pagan so the pressure must be higher".

[2] LIEBERMAN, V. (2011). Charter State Collapse in Southeast Asia, ca. 1250–1400
"In Dai Viet as well, local records and chronicles point to growing land constraints. After 950 or 1000, reclamation moved from hilly regions north and west of the Red River basin into coastal and deltaic regions to the south and east, where peasants built polders, drainage systems, and irrigation works. Taming the delta was more taxing than cultivating the foothills, but more rewarding insofar as fertile soil and abundant water permitted multiple cropping. Aided by court-sponsored hydraulic projects, the population of the delta, Yumio Sakurai estimates, mushroomed from 1.2 million in 1200 to 2.4 million in 1340. From the late 1200s, however, as new tracts became more marginal, reclamation stalled. This slowdown combined with continued population growth and land engrossment by notables to reduce per capita allotments, which depressed peasant income and accelerated the conversion of taxpayers into servile laborers. Beginning in 1343, annals refer repeatedly to uprisings by starving vagabonds, monks, and dependents championing such slogans as “Relieve the impoverished people.” In 1389, vagabonds occupied the capital for three days. Such disturbances joined emigration, drought, disease, and Cham attacks to reduce the delta population to perhaps 1.6 million in 1400."

There's also another work by Li Tana that estimated the Vietnamese population to be around 2.4 million during the Tran dynasty.

Side notes: Dai Viet has one of the highest population density in the area, so one could use that information to estimate the population as well. Even with many disasters in the 1300s, the scholars have estimated Dai Viet to have at least 1.6 million in this period, so having any number less than 1 million (or even 1.5 million) is completely unacceptable. Another information one can use is that the Tran dynasty in the 1330s is at the height of its power (although it is starting to decline from this point forward) as well.

 

[yaoxinbingkuang]

I am very grateful for the careful research and efforts of the production team. In order to repay the hard work of the production team and wish "Caesar Project" a big hit, I can only provide the production team with more useful academic reference materials! (Laughs). I majored in Chinese Language and Literature in college, and was responsible for language research in southwest China. Therefore, I can provide some insignificant reference materials. All of this information can be translated by word selection. There is a specific reading software for files in CAJ format, and the software has a built-in word selection translation on the far right.

After the preface, I would like to give a little personal opinion for reference only:
From the end of the Yuan Dynasty to the beginning of the Qing Dynasty, the Yao people not only appeared in China, but also in Vietnam, and they did not complete ethnic integration.You can refer to this paper: "The Migration of the Yao People to the Southwest Frontier and Vietnam_Laos in the Ming and Qing Dynasties_Yu Shijie".
The second part of the paper "A Diachronic Study on the Relationship between the Zhuang and Yao People in Northeast Guangxi_The Second Study of Ethnic Relationships in the Nanling Corridor_Yuan Lihong" mentioned the distribution and migration of the domestic Yao people in the late Yuan Dynasty and the middle of the Ming Dynasty.
The integration of the Yao and Han people was mainly due to the two major immigration waves in the middle of the Ming Dynasty and the late Ming and early Qing Dynasty. Before that, it was basically the Han people in the big towns and the Yao people in the mountainous areas. However, after the two immigration waves, because the Han people fled with the Yao people, the Yao and Han people eventually lived together and finally merged into one tribe.
Of course, this is just a nitpicking detail of mine. I can understand the compromise and consideration of the game team in terms of gameplay.
（I have collected all these papers in the attachment for easy one-click download!）
Because my university research is about Guangxi, I can provide the administrative division and place name map of Guangxi in the Qing Dynasty, as well as the place name map of the entire Qing Dynasty, so that the place names in the map at least do not look so modern. Forgive me, my professional research field is the Tang, Song and late Qing Dynasty, and I just don’t have a Ming Dynasty place name map (regrettable).

View attachment 5全图.jpg

Because the Qing Dynasty place name map is too large, I will upload it as an attachment.

As for the issue of Chinese religion, I understand the confusion of the producer, because we ourselves find it difficult to sort it out. Therefore, I provide three types of academic papers to answer everyone’s confusion. I believe that the production team can better define China’s religion after reading it. All the papers I provide can be directly selected and translated. I uploaded a reader for reading CAJ files, and the right side of the reading interface has a built-in translation function.

The attachment also includes the status of Yuan Dynasty literature and Ming Dynasty literature that I summarized and sorted out during my graduate studies. At the beginning of these two papers, there is a brief description of the politics, economy, culture, religion, important villages and towns from the beginning to the end of the dynasty, so you only need to understand the first chapter! You can also choose words to translate!

Finally, I don't think it's necessary for me to express too many of my own opinions, Because my knowledge level is limited, I am really ashamed., so I choose to carefully select these academic papers to support the production team and let the production team decide the game content themselves.

I wish the production team success and I wish "Caesar Project" a big hit!

 

[yusufho]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/suggestion-about-chinese-muslim-distribution.1702951/

I have make a post and I will write and continue to write here so more people can see it.


I would like to make some suggestions on the part of Tinto Talks that deals with the distribution of Chinese Muslims.

My main references include Prof. Lu Weidong (Fudan University) on the distribution of the Hui population in Northwest China, some information from the Chinese Muslim website ‘Muslim Online/穆斯林在线’ (as you can imagine, such a website tends to exaggerate), some discussions on the Chinese Zhihu forum, and some other information.

By the way, Xinjiang, Outer Mongolia, and Manchuria except Liaoning are not included here, but Qinghai and Inner Mongolia will be.

1. First of all, Chinese Muslims here will include Hui, Salar, Dongxiang, Baoan and some other East Asian native language speaking Muslims in China, my personal suggestion is not to create a specific Hui identity tag, of course it doesn't matter if you do, I just think it might be better for Muslim being localised. Salar should exist, Dongxiang and Bao'an are more troublesome, there are Mongolian speaking Muslims, and they do speak Mongolian, but they identify as Sarta, whereas Hui and Central Asian Muslims have historically identified as Sarta, and there have been quite a few Mongolian Muslims historically. Meanwhile, there could be Tibetan-speaking people in Qinghai, and although their conversion came later (the Kargan Tibetans' conversion was a result of the later Ma Laichi mission in the 18th century), Tibetan-speaking Muslims were supposed to have existed at that time. Dai-speaking Muslims were formed until the 19th century, but Bai Muslims were indeed supposed to have existed (reflecting the Islamic influence on Yunnan during the Yuan dynasty). There should have been some Muslims in Sanya and Danzhou in Hainan, but not too many, Muslims were indeed already present on Hainan Island during the Yuandynasty, but the large-scale emigration of Chamic Utsat people to Sanya was something that happened during the Ming dynasty.

2. Then, let's take a look at the proportion of Hui Muslims in modern China and the number of Hui, in order to build up a basic impression.

Of course, the distribution of Muslims in China during the Yuan Dynasty was different from that of today, and there is a saying here that ‘元时回回遍天下’, and that the Yuan Dynasty was the period when the status of Muslims was relatively high in China, and Muslims were basically distributed in all major cities in China, but there were some subtle differences between the Yuan Dynasty Muslim distribution and that of today's. For example, there are not many Muslims in southeastern China today, but this was not the case during the Yuan Dynasty, and in places where there are many Muslims today, the number of Muslims in the Yuan Dynasty may not necessarily have been that many. After the establishment of the Ming dynasty, the emperors changed the distribution of Muslims through military immigration and other means, and some Muslim quarter were formed after the Ming or even the Qing dynasty, during which time they were also accompanied by a large number of conversions of the local population.

2. I will discuss the distribution of Muslims in China in terms of regions and even provinces, which I envisage as being divided into five perspectives: north-west China, north China, south-west China, south-east China and north-east China.

(1) For the Northwest, there is no doubt that it is the place with the most Muslims in China as well as the highest proportion of the population. A number of Mongol princes of the Yuan dynasty converted to Islam with their armies, and Islam is supposed to have flourished in Guanzhong in Shaanxi Province, Ningxia, Hehuang Valley (Linxia/Hezhou, Xining, Haiding), and Hexi Corridor, and there are Muslims in almost all county in Shaanxi Province and Gansu Province. As for the number of people, according to Professor Lu Weidong's calculations, in the Qing Dynasty, after centuries of development, the Muslims in the province of Shaanxi accounted for about 15%, in Gansu (including today's Ningxia and Qinghai's Xining and Haidong) about 30%, and in the two provinces together about 25%, for a total of no more than 8 million. So the number of Muslims in the Yuan Dynasty should not have exceeded the number of Muslims in the Qing Dynasty (500 years of population accumulation!) , about 8-10% of Muslims in Shaanxi province and 15-20% in Gansu province should be a more reasonable figure, and the largest number should be in the HeHuang Valley (Linxia, Haidong & Xining) and Ningxia.

(1) Guanzhong, Shaanxi, according to Lu Weidong, ‘The central area of Hui distribution before 1862 was in the narrow strip of land east of Xianyang, west of Tongguan, and downstream of the Jing and Wei rivers. Especially in the border area between Xi'an and Tongzhou prefectures. In addition to Xi'an and Tongzhou, the pre-war concentration of Hui people also included Qian, Din and Fu, the three prefectures that Yu Shuchou refers to as the ‘two counties and three prefectures.’ In 1861, the population of the four counties of Lintong, Weinan, Huazhou, and Huayin was about 913,000, of which 370,000, or 40.5%, were of Hui ethnicity. Assuming that the proportion of Hui population in the four prefectures of Lintong, Weinan, Huazhou and Huayin is the highest among the above 17 prefectures, and that the proportion of Hui in the other prefectures is calculated at 30%-35%, it is estimated that the number of Hui in the other 13 prefectures before the war was about 940,000, and that the total Hui population in the 17 prefectures was about 1.31 million. ‘
“1862年以前回民分布的中心区在咸阳以东，潼关以西，泾、渭两河下游的狭长地带。尤其是在西安、同州两府的交界地带。除西安、同州两府外，战前回民集中的地区还包括，乾、邠、鄜三州，即余澍畴所指的“二府三州”之地。1861年，临潼、渭南、华州、华阴4个州县的人口总数大约在91.3万左右， 其中回族人口37万，约占总人口的40.5%。假设临潼、渭南、华州、华阴4个州县中回族人口的比例在以上17个州县中是最高的，其它州县回民比例以30%——35%计算，估计战前其他13个州县中回民人数大约有94万口左右，17个州县回族人口总数约为131万。 ”

It is recommended that the proportion of Muslims in the four regions of Lintong, Weinan, Huazhou and Huayin be controlled at 25-30%, and other places are controlled at about 4%-8%.

② Northern Shaanxi (Shaanbei), not too many Muslims here today, but the Ming Dynasty people Wu Yiguang in the ‘Sheng Dynasty Legacy,’ said: ‘Hui Hui species all over the world, Shaanxi Yan An, Qing Yang are the especially numerous.’ Qu Jiusi in the Wanli Wugong Records also pointed out that: ‘In the west, YanAn, QingYang, PingLiang, Hui Muslim flourished’. Since the Qing Dynasty, the Hui people will be nearly extinct in northern Shaanxi, the reason may be mainly caused by the Ming and Qing Dynasty war. It is recommended that the proportion of Muslims in northern Shaanxi and Qingyang be kept at about 5%.

③ Gansu, all over Gansu the province should have no less than 5% Muslims. "Before the Tongzhi War, the Hezhou area of Lanzhou Prefecture was one of the most concentrated areas in the distribution of the Hui population in Gansu Province, and also one of the areas with the highest proportion of Hui population. According to the Daoguang ‘Lanzhou Prefecture Records,’ the total population of Hezhou in the eleventh year of the Daoguang period was about 86,000 households and 700,000 mouths, and it is estimated that in the middle of the Daoguang period, the proportion of the Hui population of Hezhou in the total population may have been at least 50%"
It is recommended at the time of Yuan that the proportion of Muslims ( including the Dongxiang) in the Hezhou area to be controlled at 35%-50%. After the Tongzhi wars, Muslims experienced population exchanges and declining proportions in a number of places, including Wudu/武都, Yuzhong/榆中, Tianshui/天水, Didao/狄道 (Lintao/临洮), Dingxi/定西, Qingyang/庆阳, and the entire Hexi Corridor. As for today's higher proportion of Hui in Zhangjiachuan/张家川, and Jingyuan/泾源, Ningxia, that was the result of population exchange after the war in the northwest during the Tongzhi period, where Muslims were deliberately resettled, whereas in the Yuan dynasty, such places did not have such a high muslim proportion.

④ Ningxia and Pingliang in Gansu, it is suggested that the overall control is around 35%, Tongxin/同心, Haiyuan/海原, Xiji/西吉 can reach more than 50%, Ningxia plains and the mountainous areas in the south are not suggested to have a higher difference (that is the result of the later wars and resettlement of the population), and the city of Pingliang can reach 10%.

According to Muslim Online/穆斯林在线, after the establishment of the Yuan Dynasty, Pingliang, as the gateway to the Central Plains, stationed a number of Hui Hui soldiers. During the reign of Emperor Chengzong of the Yuan Dynasty, Ananda, grandson of Kublai and son of the Anshi king, and his subordinates converted to Islam. The jurisdiction of the Anxi King was in the area of Guanlong(Guanzhong and East Gansu) and Hexi, including the Liupan Mountains and Pingliang, southern Ningxia, etc. This area is the key to enter the Central Plains of the Western Region, and there are more Hui people distributed here, while most of Ananda and his subordinates were dispersed in the civil society after they converted to Islam, which undoubtedly led to the large increase of Hui population in this area. Gansu Pingliang, Ningxia Guyuan and other places have been ‘Han Hui mixed place’.

⑤ In Qinghai, Muslims in Xining and Haidong are recommended to be controlled at around 20% overall, and up to 50% in some areas.

According to Muslims Online/穆斯林在线,, in the early 13th century, the Mongols brought back a large number of locally formed ‘western armies’ from the various ethnic groups practising Islam after their western conquests. According to Marco Polo's records, in the early years of the Yuan Dynasty, there were also some Islamists among the residents in Xining. A group of Mongolian nobles and their subordinates who were stationed at the beginning of the Yuan Dynasty converted to Islam, and most of their descendants were absorbed by the local Hui. Their troops total of 600,000 people, bbout 300,000 people stationed in Qinghai all the year round, mostly ‘Hui Hui Army’ and the Mongolian army believing in Islam.

(Wait for the update)

 

[Warrior of Dumnonia]

Hello, and welcome to another week of Tinto’s fun Maps. This week it will be a huge one, as we will take a look at the entirety of China. It is a really big area, but it didn’t make sense to split it into multiple parts to present it separately, so we are showing it all at once. So, without further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
View attachment 1201429View attachment 1201430
Obviously the territory is dominated by Yuán, with Dali as its vassal. They appear big, strong, and scary, but they will have their own fair share of problems for sure. I will not go into detail into the countries that can be seen further south, as we will talk about Southeast Asia in a future Tinto Maps.

Societies of Pops
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Quite a variety of peoples in Southwest China, as you will see later in the culture maps.

Dynasties
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Here we finally have managed to catch the full name of the Borjigin dynasty in all its glory.

Locations
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Spoiler: Lots of locations

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Before you ask, there are around 1800 locations in China proper, not counting impassables and barring possible counting errors.

Provinces
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Spoiler: More provinces

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Areas
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Terrain
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You will notice here that there are few locations assigned as "farmlands", that's because when we did this part of the map there was yet not a clear criteria on how we would be defining the farmlands and their placement here hasn't been reviewed yet.

Development
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As mentioned before, the harsh changes of development at the end of China proper is probably too strong right now and it’s something that will have to be reviewed, especially at the Liáodōng area.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Spoiler: A closer look

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There is a lot of cultural variation in China, not only among the sinitic peoples (which have been divided according to their linguistical and dialectal differences) but also having many other types of non-sinitic peoples. The resulting pie chart for the cultures of the country is a wonder to see indeed. And even if Yuán itself is Mongolian, there are actually very few Mongolian people in the country, as only the ruling class would belong to it. That is one other source of further trouble for Yuán.

Religions
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Spoiler: A closer look

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Considering religion, there is also a lot of variation in the South West, and one thing you will notice is the clear lack of “Animism”. We have finally eliminated Animism as a religion from the game and have divided it into many multiple ones. Besides this, and some Muslim presence in some areas, there are other small pockets of religions that do not get to appear in the map, like Manichaeism, Nestorianism, Judaism and Zoroastrianism. And the elephant in the room is the Mahayana, that we have already mentioned that we have plans on dividing it, but more on it at the end.

Raw Materials
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Spoiler: More resources

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A very resource rich region, which makes it understandable that China was able to basically be self-sufficient in terms of resources for long periods in history, and with many sources of highly appreciated resources like silk, tea, and even soybeans. Another interesting thing is the division on the preference of grain cultivation, with rice being more prominent in the south while the north tends to favor wheat and sturdy grains (millet, basically).

Markets
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Population
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Spoiler: Lots of people

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Yes, there’s a lot of population in China, and with that many people and that many resources it obviously has a lot of potential. We have been following population census of 1351 and 1393, which allows us to have the most accurate values we can have.

Now, before closing off, let me turn back once again to the subject of religion, as it has already been pointed out that having a single Mahayana religion covering both China and Tibet (and parts of India) may not be the best both for accuracy and gameplay reasons, and we basically agree with it so we are planning on reworking a bit but it hasn’t been done in time for this Tinto Maps. However, as we are aware that you are not able to provide proper feedback unless we present you something, let me now share with you what are our plans with it. Please keep in mind that I will NOT go into details about their mechanics, and only talk about their distribution.

First of all, Tibetan Buddhism will be split and turned into its own religion. Although it “technically” is part of the Mahayana branch, it is true that its practices have distinguished it from Chinese Buddhism enough to represent it as its own religion, starting from the fact that they do not follow the same canon. The Mahayana that was present in India was already an outlier from start, so it will be made into its own religion.

That leaves out that the current “Mahayana” remaining in game will be Chinese Buddhism, that is, those following the Chinese Buddhist canon, and it will be present in China, Korea, and Vietnam. The question remains on what to call the religion, and several things have to be considered for that:

1. The religion will already include blended into it Confucianism and Daoism besides Buddhism, so all three religions are included. That means it can’t be named either Confucianism or Daoism, as they have been bundled in. Buddhism was taken as the base name because, from the three, it was considered as the one mostly oriented towards the “religious” (Confucianism being more focused on administration and Daoism on rituals), and the most similar to what an organized religion would be outside of China.
   1. As a subpoint on that, and I can’t go into details for it yet, but there will also be options inside it to favor Buddhism over Confucianism or the opposite, so that is already covered too.
2. As mentioned, it will be present not only in China but also in Korea and Vietnam (and any other country that may convert too, like for example Japan), so naming it something that’s too intrinsic to Chinese identity would not be ideal. That would mean that a term like Sānjiào, although good, would feel a bit out of place when playing for example as Korea (we know that the concept spread there too, but it was more prominent inside China and regardless having the name be directly in Chinese would be the main issue when playing outside China)

So, for now, the current name we are considering for the religion is directly “Chinese Buddhism”, or even leaving it as “Mahayana”, understanding that the main current of Mahayana is the version following the Chinese canon anyway. But feel free to suggest any alternative naming if you feel that there may be a better option we haven’t thought of, as long as it takes into consideration the previous points. And of course, let us know your feedback on the proposed representation and distribution too.

And that’s it for today, after a bit longer closing than usual. Next week we’ll be back a bit further east, taking a look at Korea and Japan. Hope to see you there!

I am so excited!

After living nearly a decade in Taiwan, I think that Siraya, Makatao, and Basai should be natural ports. Tainan (Siraya) is where the dutch created their first trading post in 1624. Fort Zeelandia and Fort Provintia were built there due to the excellent natural harbour. The Spanish then set up their first trading posts in Keelung (Basai) called Fort San Salvador in 1626 with another settlement named Fort Santo Domingo in Tamsui in 1629. Again, these were two excellent natural harbours, hence their colonisation by Europeans. Lastly, Kaohsiung (Makatao) (Takao) was already one of the most important fishing ports in southern Taiwan by the arrival of the Dutch. Once Taiwan was captured by the Qing, Kaohsiung became a prospering commercial port and has remained so since the 1680s because of its excellent natural harbour.

The Kingdom of Middag / Kingdom of Dadu would also be an interesting addition to the map a supra-tribal alliance located in the central-western plains of Taiwan (Papora). Perhaps they could be represented as a society of pops at Game start with a settled tag able to form later on given that the first records of the Kingdom of Middag did not occur until the Dutch colonisation in 1624. On the whole, it would be amazing if the Formosan Aboriginals actually got some flavour and representation in this game (unlike EU4) as they have truly fascinating cultures which were the progenitor of all of the Austronesian cultures.

My last minor criticism is that there do not seem to be enough impassable mountain ranges in Taiwan. The impassable mountains should stretch as far south as the border between Rukai, Makatao, and Paiwan. Generally, the interior of the island should be a lot more fragmented with narrow passes between locations. Having travelled through those mountains on numerous occasions, I am sure that taking an army through them in the early modern age would have been next to impossible.

Overall, a solid win compared to Taiwan's representation on any previous Paradox game though, so I am super excited to play there in future!

 

[cools0812]

Mapping Chinese cultures by modern Chinese dialect distribution creates several errors, since a lot happened - some of the most radical population shifts in history included - to the Chinese linguistic scene after the startdate of this game. I'll list those issues from important to (relatively) nitpicks:

1) The Ancient Sichuanese dialect (Ba/Shu Chinese) got overlooked.
Modern Sichuan speaks Southwestern Mandrian(Xinan) because after the succeeding shocks of Mongol conquest and Late-Yuan civil wars almost completely depopulated Sichuan, Ming government brought huge waves of settlers from Hubei and Hunan, bringing their dialects with them(This migration is called 湖广填四川). In 1337 the Ba-Shu dialect was going downhill but definitely not replaced already, and it would be interesting if we as players could reverse its decline in the game.
This causes another issue: the Xinan dialect was not really "Xinan(Southwest)" yet in 1337. Modern linguists named it such because - as explained above - in modern time it is the dominant dialect of many southwestern provinces. In 1337 it hadn't taken hold in the entire southwest yet, so its appropriate name would probably just be the Huguang/Chu(湖广/楚, both are historical names for Hubei) dialect, maybe?

2) Lanyin(兰银) culture in 1337 is an anachronistic term, describing a modern dialect group not yet formed at the moment, and its distribution likely exaggerated the cultural homogeneity of Yuan era Hexi corridor.
Modern linguists found the dialects around Gansu and Ningxia significantly different from neighboring Zhongyuan dialects, so they put them in a separate group and named it after the abbreviation of the two modern day provincial capitals - Lanzhou and Yinchuan, the latter won't exist until late Qing. The distinctiveness of this group is usually attributed to another Ming era migration drive: to shore up Northwestern frontier, Ming empire settled large numbers of soldiers and peasants here. The settlers were from a diverse set of provinces including Yangtze Basin, thus creating a dialect melting pot, with Lanyin dialect being its result.
So what should be the dominant culture of Gansu and Hexi corridor at this time? I can't find a clear-cut answer yet, but from what I can gather, after two centuries of Tangut rule and subsequent Mongol conquest, demographics in this region (especially the western portion) was highly diverse, a mix of Mongols, Han Chinese, Uyghurs, Tangut remnants and other Muslim ethnicities. The majority of Han population there would likely be speaking some variety of Zhongyuan derived Qin-Long dialects.

3) This one I'll admit is more of a nitpick but IMO still worth discussing: Is the culture name Jiaoliao (胶辽, in Shandong peninsular) appropriate for startdate? The modern Jiao(dong)-Liao(dong) dialect group got this name because it's dominant in both Jiaodong(Eastern Shandong) and Liaodong peninsular. Again, this was because Ming dynasty administered their Liaodong peninsular frontier as an extension of the Shandong province, and settled large number of Han Chinese from Shandong across the strait in Liaodong. Later during Qing and Republic, several more waves of immigration from Shandong into Liaodong occurred. In 1337 this hadn't happened yet, indeed the cultural map properly reflected that. So dropping Liao from Jiaoliao would be more appropriate, making it just the Jiaodong culture?

PS: While large scale immigration from Shandong into Liaodong hadn't taken place in late Yuan period, there were definitely sizeable Han population in Liaodong peninsula(maybe not majority, but should be significant minority in some costal region), we know this from records on the Red Turban War in Liaodong, and from contemporary Koreans. The Han population in Liaodong at this period came from diverse cultural backgrounds, including a) descendants of remnant Liaodong Han population from previous dynasties; b) conquered subjects resettled by Yuan from all over china; c) immigrants from all over china. If those pops are to be properly represented, it might be appropriate to assign them a separate culture, with Liao being the preferred name.

4) With all of above said, I hope you can see why it may not be best to map and name Han Chinese sub-cultures with modern dialect groupings.
Those names are for describing modern linguistic scene, not early 14th century, and a great deal of things happened since 1337. Besides, Chinese dialect groups are merely linguistic divisions, not cultural divisions. Within the same dialect group, culture can be highly diverse, especially for the "core dialect group", aka Zhongyuan/Central Plains. IMO the Shaanxi portion deserves its own culture called Qin-Long (秦陇) and have it spread into Gansu(replacing the anachronistic Lanyin culture), as it was often consider a separate geographic unit and cultural entity by tradition and contemporaries. On the other hand, the Huizhou dialect, while linguistically quite distinct, might not warrant a separate culture, as it's usually consider as a part of the Jiangnan cultural zone.

Spoiler: Some source on Lanyin Dialect (in Chinese):

《汉语官话方言研究》, 2010, p201

EDIT:
5) One more complaint: about the "Dongbei"(Northeast) culture around modern day Beijing, its name choice is questionable at best, it would be better to name it "Yan/Youyan/Yanyun(燕/幽燕/燕云)". I'll give devs credits for not simply copying the modern "Beijing" and "Dongbei" dialect zones: it's commonly thought these two dialects are very close and hadn't fully split in 14th century, so in 1337 it should be some kind of common dialect continuum around Dadu(Beijing).
However, I would argue this culture should be named after contemporary names of modern day Beijing region instead of Dognbei(Northeast). Dongbei is a modern term very clearly denoting what used to be called Manchuria, and according to migration pattern, the common ancestor dialect of Dognbei and Beijing dialect was formed in the Beijing area, while Dongbei is just an offshoot. The cultural identity of Beijing region at this time is highly interesting if you think about it: this Han-majority region had been separated from the main Han cultural body since 10th century, under influence of succeeding Khitan, Jurchen and Mongol rule, producing some very unique cultural and linguistic development. Historically at this point, the region was usually referred to as Yan(燕), Youyan(幽燕) or Yanyun(燕云), which I would suggest as appropriate names for this culture. (BTW - Some linguists named the proto dialect mentioned above as "Youyan dialect".)

 

[Mef]

Regarding the distribution of coal:

China had a long history of coal use, and even used coke extensively during the Tang and Song dynasties. However, the economical center of China gradually shifted south towards the Yangtze, where coal was less abundant than in the north. As a result, the predominant fuel used in China during the game's time period was charcoal. It was only in the region around Shanxi and in Beijing, where Emperors encouraged build up of industry, that coal was still used as fuel.
This is what I read in a paper a while ago, but unfortunately I can't find it to link it at the moment...

Looking at the maps posted, it looks like the distribution of coal does not match history that well. Yes, in the South there is no coal and abundant forest (charcoal), so that makes sense. But I counted 4 coal locations in Central China, while there isn't a single one in the north, other than that big Gobi location.
As far as I know, coal use was especially concentrated around Shanxi and the Yellow River, so it's strange that there isn't any coal in that region. It would probably be more historical to move all that coal over to the Yellow River, so this part of China starts with its historical proliferation of coal represented, while the rest of China doesn't use coal and can maybe unlock it later.
Unless there are sources for extensive coal use in the areas that have it at the moment, of course.

 

[Witcher587]

We have finally eliminated Animism as a religion from the game and have divided it into many multiple ones.

As a Pole and 10,600 plater, I still have hope for Slavic paganism religion...

 

[yaoxinbingkuang]

I am very grateful for the careful research and efforts of the production team. In order to repay the hard work of the production team and wish "Caesar Project" a big hit, I can only provide the production team with more useful academic reference materials! (Laughs). I majored in Chinese Language and Literature in college, and was responsible for language research in southwest China. Therefore, I can provide some insignificant reference materials. All of this information can be translated by word selection. There is a specific reading software for files in CAJ format, and the software has a built-in word selection translation on the far right.

After the preface, I would like to give a little personal opinion for reference only:
From the end of the Yuan Dynasty to the beginning of the Qing Dynasty, the Yao people not only appeared in China, but also in Vietnam, and they did not complete ethnic integration.You can refer to this paper: "The Migration of the Yao People to the Southwest Frontier and Vietnam_Laos in the Ming and Qing Dynasties_Yu Shijie".
The second part of the paper "A Diachronic Study on the Relationship between the Zhuang and Yao People in Northeast Guangxi_The Second Study of Ethnic Relationships in the Nanling Corridor_Yuan Lihong" mentioned the distribution and migration of the domestic Yao people in the late Yuan Dynasty and the middle of the Ming Dynasty.
Because my university research is about Guangxi, I can provide the administrative division and place name map of Guangxi in the Qing Dynasty, as well as the place name map of the entire Qing Dynasty, so that the place names in the map at least do not look so modern. Forgive me, my professional research field is the Tang, Song and late Qing Dynasty, and I just don’t have a Ming Dynasty place name map (regrettable).

View attachment 1203886

Because the Qing Dynasty place name map is too large, I will upload it as an attachment.

As for the issue of Chinese religion, I understand the confusion of the producer, because we ourselves find it difficult to sort it out. Therefore, I provide three types of academic papers to answer everyone’s confusion. I believe that the production team can better define China’s religion after reading it. All the papers I provide can be directly selected and translated. I uploaded a reader for reading CAJ files, and the right side of the reading interface has a built-in translation function.

Finally, I don't think it's necessary for me to express too many of my own opinions, Because my knowledge level is limited, I am really ashamed., so I choose to carefully select these academic papers to support the production team and let the production team decide the game content themselves.

I wish the production team success and I wish "Caesar Project" a big hit!

By the way, I can’t receive the verification email on my main account (I don’t know why, which prevents me from logging in normally), so I can only register a new account to give some suggestions.

 

[Aloraand]

I've been thinking and if the issue with "three teachings" is the lack of influence of daoism in Korea (hence no "third" teaching there) how about naming it something like "harmonious teachings", "eastern teachings" or simply "the teachings". That way there shouldn't be any issue with Korea having such a religion.

I know nothing about the subject, so would look it up after seeing it in the game. "The teachings" search results in some unrelated book and "eastern teachings" gives me eastern philosophy as a whole, so neither would actually give me a good idea of what those people believe in. But harmonious teachings returns a reference to the three teachings, which would expose me to the flavour even without knowing anything beforehand, so I quite like that one because its specific enough to be understood as a reference but broad enough to encompass the breadth.

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

Btw, have you considered making Yuan white again? Or at least, showing how it looked like or choosing another colour. While you decided to change the color, the current colour of light green isn’t the most pleasing to look at, nor is it historical like the white colour was.

 

[Vásárhelyi Zerénd]

When I saw Shanghai in the form of a modern coastline and the division between Pudong and Puxi, I was about as disappointed and annoyed as I was when I saw the weird coastlines along the Yellow and Bohai Seas. But when I saw the Puxi area categorized as a non-coastal, no-port parcel because of the land division, I immediately laughed out loud. In fact, as a Zhejiang native, I gloated a bit about it; you guys are going too far. Yes, the main urban area of Shanghai is now a landlocked parcel.
It's just too much to bear.
On to the main topic. Again, as a Zhejiang native, I wish to talk about the Ningbo parcel and the Changguo (now known as Zhoushan) parcel here. First of all, I would like the misnomer Ningbo to be corrected. It could have been called Qingyuan (the name given to the place during the Yuan Dynasty) or Mingzhou (it was called Mingzhou before and after the Yuan Dynasty). It wasn't until 1381 that the name was changed to Ningbo because it was renamed after the Ming Dynasty. Secondly, the port value and importance of these two port cities has clearly been slighted, receiving only a dark green rating. Ningbo and Zhoushan have world class ports. In fact, Ningbo-Zhoushan port is now the world's number one port, known for its container throughput that dwarfs every other port in the world.
From a historical perspective, I can give a brief history of the port's prosperity until 1337. Since the Eastern Zhou Dynasty, this neighborhood has been a major sea port. During the Qin Dynasty, coastal residents from near and far came here to collect and trade goods. After the establishment of Mingzhou in the Tang Dynasty, the area rapidly developed into a major port for China's oceanic and offshore trade, and was the main port of call for travel to Japan, Goryeo, and various parts of the South Seas. During the Northern Song Dynasty, ships from all over the country going to Japan and Goryeo had to go to the port of Mingzhou to complete the formalities before being sent to the ocean. In the Southern Song Dynasty, the capital of the empire was moved to Lin'an (now Hangzhou), and Mingzhou, close to the capital, was further developed into one of the four major ports of the country at that time. 1276, after the Yuan army occupied the city of Mingzhou, the port of Mingzhou was renamed as the port of Qingyuan, and the Qingyuan Shipyard Department was set up to carry out the restoration and development work of the port.
At the beginning of the game, around 1337, the harbor here was still detained at a very high value and status. The Yuan government's open foreign policy and the pioneering maritime transportation made Qingyuan a hub for domestic and international trade and transportation, and it was known as one of the three major ports in China at the time, along with Quanzhou and Guangzhou. Zhoushan in the same period in the not so distant past is still the southern grain transportation to the capital of the sea transit port, but recently because of the active pirates and forced to impose a sea ban. This also shows that it has good enough conditions to become a haven for pirates.
From the perspective of natural conditions, I can also state the excellent harbor conditions here. Zhoushan Islands are dotted with more than 1,300 islands of various sizes, forming a natural barrier against wind and waves, and most of the harbor shorelines have excellent shelter conditions. Zhoushan Islands and Ningbo south of the Yong River estuary to the bedrock coast, the coastline is mainly zigzag, deep harbor, the sea area between the hills and valleys, interlocking islands, harbors and bays, deep waterways, most of the natural depth of the tidal waterways more than 20 meters, is a multi-channel deep-water harbors.
From these aspects, we can see that this place deserves a higher evaluation of the value of the port, and perhaps it should become one of the core ports near the mouth of the Yangtze River, instead of what it is now. At the very least, it should have demonstrated enough port rank to be on a par with Quanzhou, the world's largest port at the time.

 

[TakaiJuniro]

Another report on North Henan area.

1) The location Mucheng should be renamed as Wǔzhì.
Mucheng is the name of a subdistrict in Wuzhi County. You may notice this name because the current Wuzhi Government is located in Mucheng Subdistrict. But the name Wǔzhì(武陟) may seems more correct. It is used over 3000 years, as Wǔ(武) for King Wu(周武王, ?~1043BC) and Zhì(陟) for highlands, means King Wu ascended a height to scout Shang army there.

2) The location Daokou should be renamed as Huáxiàn or Huázhōu.
The Daokou Town was famous for river transportation in ancient China, and famous for roasted chicken nowadays. But the location should be Huázhōu(滑州) in Yuan Dynasty. The name started to use from Sui Dynasty and changed to Huáxiàn in Ming Dynasty.

3) You may notice in the map that many location named oooxiàn(OO县) was ooozhōu(OO州) in Yuan Dynasty. This is due to the administractive division reform in Hongwu era(1368-1398), which is not far from the game starting year. Both xiàn or zhōu seems ok in my opinion, just for reference if needed.

 

[zhaidangv]

This location, Yanhecheng is a stronghold that is set in Ming Dynastic, so "Yanghecheng（沿河城）" didn't exist in Yuan Dynastic.
You can rename it "Wǎnpíng（宛平）", its official name, or betterly "Méntóugōu（门头沟）", its popular name as well as its name in today (Wanping also covers some area in Fengtai).
Besides, Mentougou's 98% territory is covered by mountains. The production of wheat is nonsense, however, this place has been mining coal in order to supply the entire Beijing city since Liao Dynastic. Marco polo also mentioned that in his travels. In conclusion, I believe the better raw material for this location should be coal.

 

[theEXPERTpt]

Please Make atleast Macau an island province, as it was historically. Hong Kong might have some later relevance, and should also be a province if possible

 

[NGNGN19]

It might be a good idea to refine the Mǐn people. The Mǐn language was considered a higher-level branch in the 1986 edition of the Language Atlas of China, with its six sub-branches classified on the same level as other Chinese dialects. However, this classification was downgraded in the 2012 edition of the atlas. Instead of being too detailed, and the sub-braches may have not developed at the game start, it's still considerable to break it into two groups:
Costal Mǐn（沿海闽语）including Minnan, Mindong, Puxian and (Qionglei)
Inland Mǐn（沿山闽语） including Minbei, Minzhong, and Shaojiang.
It would be benefit to historic simulation since Inland Min are not so active in the migration to South East Asia. It's also reasonable since Hūi People is presented.