• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

Hello and welcome once more to another week of Tinto Maps. This week we are going to the lands even further to the East and taking a look at Korea and Japan. So, without further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
Countries.png
Colored wastelands.png

Korea during the Goryeo dynasty was under the orbit of Yuán, and had very close ties with it, with the Yuán emperors taking Korean wives. The north, though, and also Tamna in the Jeju island wouldn’t be unified under Korea until the following Joseon dynasty, so they are still separated although all of them also under Yuán. On the other side, Japan starts in a very interesting situation. After a failed attempt to overthrow the shogunate and restore imperial power during the Kenmu restoration, one of the generals that contributed to such restoration, Ashikaga Takauji, in the end established his own shogunate in 1336 (just before the start of the game). The emperor had then to flee the capital and thus we start with the period of the Northern and Southern Courts, with two opposing Emperors and the shogun fighting for legitimacy. So, although it appears unified at first glance, Japan hides many internal divisions within (more on that later). Further South, the kingdom of Ryūkyū is not yet unified, so the three mountain kingdoms of Hokuzan, Chūzan and Nanzan vie for supremacy over the island.

Societies of pops
Societies of Pops.png

Basically already shown in the Manchuria Tinto Maps, but they need to be shown here too, especially the Ainu.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Dynasties zoom.png
As it happens in China, the “Goryeo dynasty” name is actually not the name of the dynasty itself, which is actually the house of Wang.

Locations
Locations.png

Locations zoom 1.png
Locations zoom 2.png
Locations zoom 3.png
Locations zoom 4.png
Locations zoom 5.png
Locations zoom 6.png
Locations zoom 7.png
Locations zoom 8.png

Provinces
Provinces.png

Provinces zoom 1.png
Provinces zoom 2.png
Provinces zoom 3.png
Provinces zoom 4.png
Provinces zoom 5.png
Provinces zoom 6.png
Here (as well as with the areas next) we have tried to follow the administrative division of both countries in period, but we’ve had to make some adjustments. In Korea, we had to account for the fact that historically, almost immediately after the start of the game the Josen dynasty took over and the administrative divisions are somewhat different, so we’ve adjusted them together (and had to divide some of the bigger provinces for gameplay reasons). In Japan, the administrative divisions remained virtually unchanged since the establishment of the Ritsuryō system in the 7-8th century until after the Meiji restoration in 1868. However, we still had to make some adjustments, and the smaller ones had to unfortunately disappear.

Areas
Areas.png


Terrain
Topography.png
Vegetation.png
Climate.png

Very mountainous and forested areas both, so the few plains have to be taken the most advantage of.

Development
Development.png

Not bad developed areas, but obviously development decreases the further north it goes.

Natural Harbors
Natural Harbors.png


Cultures
Cultures.png

Korea is mainly Korean, and Japan has been divided into four main groups. Besides this, we also have Ainu in the north, Jeju in Jeju island and Ryūkyū in the Ryūkyū islands.

Religions
Religions.png

Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Raw Materials zoom 1.png
Raw Materials zoom 2.png
Raw Materials zoom 3.png
Raw Materials zoom 4.png
Raw Materials zoom 5.png
Not bad areas for resources, and plenty of rice and fish in Japan to get good sushi. The more observant of you will see that the resources of Hokkaido have already been adjusted thanks to feedback from the previous Manchuria Tinto Maps.

Markets
Markets.png

Some may find surprising the presence of Izumi as a Market in Japan, but it is the area that served as the main point of entrance for commerce into central Japan, where the merchant town of Sakai developed, until later Osaka developed under Toyotomi and basically took over that function.

Population
Population.png

Population zoom 1.png
Population zoom 2.png
Population zoom 3.png
Population zoom 4.png
Population zoom 5.png
Population zoom 6.png
Population zoom 7.png
Not much to say here, except that quite a bit of population waiting for some action.

Extraterritorial Countries
Extraterritorial Countries.png

Extraterritorial Countries zoom 1.png
Extraterritorial Countries zoom 2.png
Extraterritorial Countries zoom 3.png
I’m sure many of you were waiting for this. The samurai clans in Japan are represented as Extraterritorial Countries, and we have tried to be as close as possible to their distribution of territory in 1337. As you can imagine, that is not an easy task, and some more tweaking is needed, so if you have any feedback or extra info on that regard it would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, there’s some overlapping of some clans on the same territory and only one name can be shown at a time, so not all names are visible (the Oda clan is still there, I promise), but there are a total of 143 clans (not counting Ashikaga), plus two extra for each of the imperial courts that are present at start. Related to this, each clan will pledge its allegiance to either the northern or the southern court, mainly based on their historical allegiances but allowing a bit of leeway (and those allegiances don’t necessarily have to be permanent). So, as a bit of an extra tease, these are the allegiances of the clans at start (yellow are the north court supporters, blue are the southern court ones, and again keep in mind that only one color can be present even if there’s more than one clan with different allegiances in the same location)
Nanbokuchou.png

And that is all for today. Next week there will not be any Tinto Maps due to being a bank holiday, so next one will be in two weeks for a look further south into South East Asia. See you there.
 
  • 167Love
  • 117Like
  • 4
  • 4
  • 2Haha
Reactions:
Potentially, but I fear for situations where you have extreme exploitation by the player of these locations 50 years after game start, when historically they weren't even discovered yet, much less mined, at that time. Same situation with the Sado silver mines.

No problem if they stay that way, it's not a serious issue at all, but even EU4 had some dynamic RGOs and I think it's a cool feature to make use of.
Well we have situations like this all over the world, such as alum mines that weren't discovered until 100+ years after the start of the game but exist from the start anyway.
It's probably a bit too much to ask for dynamically appearing raw materials, unless it's specifically something that only appeared late in the time period or famous cases like the European silver mines that were opened after the Saiger process was perfected.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Why is the Ssangseong Prefecture ruled by the "Muju" family? As far as I know Muju has never been a Korean surname. Muju seems to be a place name in Jeolla Province. We know the rulers of the prefecture, it was the Cho family.
1729866142399.png
 
  • 10Like
  • 1
Reactions:
First I want to say, I'm pretty much hyped for the game, you did an amazing job in representing a very complex period as its the Nanbokucho period with the new system and for what you had said until now from the release version is going to have a lot of good content.

Once again thank you guys for your incredible work and hope to play it soon ;)


Do we have content for trade with Europeans and the spread of Christianity? Was an important factor in the Sengoku period IIRC

About this, while is certainly true that European commerce allowed a more conventional and bigger exchange with China, with the Portuguese being the middle-man due to the Ming Dynasty commerce ban with Japan, the most important factor was the transfer of Warfare technology, mainly the gunpowder muskets which really were a decisive factor in breaking the Sengoku stalemate and the start of the Azuchi-Momoyama period. Also the problem with Christianity in Japan is that, due to primary sources had to relay in missionaries accounts, it usually has been overstated and while It played a big role in the Daimyo politics in Kyushu island, It didn't have a lot of impact in the rest of Japan.
 
  • 3
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
How exactly will it work if the southern court wins? Restoration of imperial power?

Will the damyio still rise ik that situation ?

Can you tell us this or will it be covered in a future tinto talk?
 
  • 8Like
Reactions:
First of all, I'm not an English speaker, so please understand that English sentences may be awkward.
View attachment 1206997
The population of Goryeo in 1337 shown in the image above is 2.509 million.View attachment 1206998
However, the population at the time of the fall of Goryeo and the founding of Joseon was about 5.549 million, as shown in the following table.
(The source of the table above is the latest population chart of Joseon issued by Statistics Korea, a government agency in Korea.)

I think 2.509 million in 1337 is too small compared to 5.549 million in the early days of Joseon's founding in 1392.



Considering that the population did not increase significantly and may even have decreased due to socio-economic turmoil, Japanese invasions, and Red Turban attacks during the late Goryeo period (1350-1392), the population of Goryeo is estimated to be up to 5-6 million and at least 4-5 million.

Thank you.


Based on those numbers, the population grew approximately 26% on an equivalent period (1392 to 1447) to 1337 to 1392. If no other factors are considered by a constant growth curve, this would leave population at approximately 4,404,000 for the totality of those territories.

So, yeah, I'd agree, though I'd pick your low estimate.

Also, don't worry, your English seems fine. :)
 
  • 6Like
Reactions:
How do you guys plan to account for the change in RGOs overtime? For example during this period of Japanese history cotton is largely limited as a luxury good for the wealthy, but it started to be widely grown in the late fifteenth century, and by 1700 had become the standard fabric for Japanese commoners, replacing hemp.
That sounds very similar to what happened in China.
The game can probably represent shifts like this by unlocking new buildings with better production methods or more efficient raw material production.
 
On Shintō; given its quasi-syncretic nature, will you be able to, as the religious head/ruler of Japan, sway the ways of the religion towards either more Buddhism-oriented or more Kami-oriented/exclusive? So for example, could you pull a "Meiji-manoeuvre" earlier than it historically happened, or do the opposite and evolve this religion into a purely Buddhist direction?
Each country has power over what they want to do with their beliefs, so if you unify all Japan then you will have the power to influence all Shinto.
 
  • 31Like
  • 18
  • 2
Reactions:
Japan should be international organization with many daimyos, shogun, imperial court etc

It looks really looking very bland for me currently no matter what might be hidden inside, I would prefer daimyos to be land based or army based countries because daimyos owned land.
The daimyos were not really all that powerful at this point, I'm guessing they will grow stronger over time, specially due to the internal division between the two courts, eventually leading to the sengoku jidai unless the ashikaga can centralize the country before that.
What you are asking for is not really that accurate for the time period.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I can’t seem to find the Matsura clan on the map, they should be in the Hizen/Hirado area I believe


The Matsura-to, or the Matsuura-to, was a group of petty military families that had roots in the 11th century in Hizen Province on the island of Kyushu. In the 1220s, they were known as pirate bands who sailed to Korea to "destroy people's dwellings and plunder their property."[1][2] From the 13th century onwards, they ran Hirado Domain in Hizen.[3] By 1371, the Matsura became allied with the shugo of Totomi Province, Imagawa Sadayo, along with the Shimazu and the Ouchi clans.[4] By the 1400s, the group's leadership was mainly made up of petty barons.[5] In the 1440s and 1450s, Korea attempted to make peace with the Matsura by issuing them ceremonial copper seals, given to those in maritime affairs that the Koreans had a "favored status" for.[6]Eventually, the group's leaders became samurai and daimyo.[7]
 
  • 6Like
  • 1
Reactions:
How exactly does that Snegoku Jidai work and country breaking apart?
Will it be like some disaster that ticks up slowly? Or some own form of mechanic? With some form of support and opposition tied together with the Samurais getting too much power and some other stuff I'm unable to think of currently?
You will unfortunately have to wait for future Tinto Talks when for a talk into detail on the mechanics.
 
  • 36Like
  • 13
  • 1Love
Reactions:
First of all, I'm not an English speaker, so please understand that English sentences may be awkward.
View attachment 1206997
The population of Goryeo in 1337 shown in the image above is 2.509 million.View attachment 1206998
However, the population at the time of the fall of Goryeo and the founding of Joseon was about 5.549 million, as shown in the following table.
(The source of the table above is the latest population chart of Joseon issued by Statistics Korea, a government agency in Korea.)

I think 2.509 million in 1337 is too small compared to 5.549 million in the early days of Joseon's founding in 1392.



Considering that the population did not increase significantly and may even have decreased due to socio-economic turmoil, Japanese invasions, and Red Turban attacks during the late Goryeo period (1350-1392), the population of Goryeo is estimated to be up to 5-6 million and at least 4-5 million.

Thank you.
I think this is also skewed significantly lower. It's a conservative estimate, but scholarly estimates are somewhere between 6 million and 7.5 million, because if we estimate 5.5 million, the population growth rate in later statistics is too high even though it's the pre-modern period. It's because it was a difficult time, and the administration in the early Joseon Dynasty at the end of the Goryeo Dynasty was very unformalized, and to be counted in the census would mean that one would be under the penalty of paying taxes and conscription, so it would be very low.

rome-20241025-232551-000.png


(Might not be accurate translations).. A typical example of the wide variation in results due to differences in interpretation of the same data is the determination of the population size during the Joseon Dynasty. First of all, the study by Kwon Tae-hwan-Shin-ha (1977), which was relied on and cited by many scholars up to this time,3) characterized the population of the Joseon Dynasty as 5.54 million.

However, using <Table 1> above and other sources4), I estimated the population to be 6.71-7.5 million. This is a vague numerical difference, but the resulting difference is quite large. Tae-Hwan Kwon. Kwon's (1977) study underestimates the size of the population in the early period, which leads to a considerably higher population growth rate in the later period. Their study estimated the population at the outbreak of the Imjin War in 1591 at 13.73 million. As a result, their study puts the population growth rate of the Joseon Dynasty (1392-1591) at 0.47%, which is higher than the Late Joseon Dynasty (1639-1910) rate of about 0.21%. However, the authors estimate the population size of the early Joseon Dynasty at 6.71-7.5 million, which is about 1.2-2 million higher than the 5.54 million found by Kwon, Tae-hwan, and Shin, Shin (1977). And the population in 1591 was about 9.33 million to 10.12 million, about 4 million lower than their estimate. As a result, the population growth rate of the Joseon Dynasty was 0.19%, which is characterized by a lower growth rate than the population growth rate of the late Joseon Dynasty, which was 0.27%....

(Edit translations)

source:
이영구, 유병규, 2004, 「 조선전기의 인구와 농업생산력 연구」, 한국농업사학회

Lee, Young-Goo and Yoo, Byung-Kyu, 2004, "A Study of Population and Agricultural Productivity in the Joseon Dynasty," Korean Society of Agricultural History
 
Last edited:
  • 17Like
  • 2
Reactions: