Tinto Maps #9 Carpathia and Balkans Feedback

[phantasmAgaric]

1). If that's your concern, then I think it would be more appropriate for South Slavic to be renamed to Serbo-Croatian. They may all say they're different languages, but just like Arabic, they're the same language.

They were actually more divergent in this period than they are now. Modern Serbian and Croatian are both based off the East Herzegovinian standard of the West Shtokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian - a result of standardisation in the 19th and 20th centuries, pan-nationalism, and Ottoman advances causing mass migrations of speakers of the various South Slavic dialects. In the 1300s, Croatian was based on the Chakavian dialect, now spoken near-exclusively on Adriatic islands, and Serbian was based on East Shtokavian, which is slightly closer to e.g. Bulgarian than modern East Herzegovinian is.

Also of note is that the Zagorje and Drava regions (the historical Kingdom of Slavonia, around Zagreb) spoke the Kajkavian dialect, closer to Slovenian than to the Croatian Chakavian or the Serbian East Shtokavian. With the granularity we see in other cultures (splitting Romanian into Wallachian, Transylvanian, and Moldavian!) I think this could merit the addition of a Kajkavian-speaking Slavonian culture that may later merge into the Croatian, though no doubt this would upset a lot of people!

 

[Zeprion]

I reason I believe the devs decided to skip over the British and Russian regions is because the UN forces needed needed to intervene quickly.

Contrary to Ludi, I don't believe this feedback page was as wild as the previous one. It was quite civil, for Balkan standards.

 

[Ronin Szaky]

Csángós are a tough nut, because it's not an entirely homogenous group.

So overall, the Csángós in 1337:
- would definitely not be Székelys as the current Tinto map shows; I would either model them with Hungarian pops or their own separate culture
- their population center should be around Roman and Bacău, with a gradient of minorities ranging as north as Botosani, as South as Focsani and as East as Galați
- the Hétfalusi Csángós and the Gyimes Csángós are really small and not actually Csángós, and the latter are also not present at start date
- there were a number of Hungarian settlements in other parts of Moldavia and Wallachia in the middle ages, however I don't know basically anything about them. I may look into it and maybe make a post on it, or not.

From what I gather the most accurate representation would be to add Csángós, include some Hungarian settlements, and also to keep Székelys where accurate. Now this is overtly complex and feel free to correct me if my assessment is incorrect.

 

[domagoj222]

They were actually more divergent in this period than they are now. Modern Serbian and Croatian are both based off the East Herzegovinian standard of the West Shtokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian - a result of standardisation in the 19th and 20th centuries, pan-nationalism, and Ottoman advances causing mass migrations of speakers of the various South Slavic dialects. In the 1300s, Croatian was based on the Chakavian dialect, now spoken near-exclusively on Adriatic islands, and Serbian was based on East Shtokavian, which is slightly closer to e.g. Bulgarian than modern East Herzegovinian is.

Also of note is that the Zagorje and Drava regions (the historical Kingdom of Slavonia, around Zagreb) spoke the Kajkavian dialect, closer to Slovenian than to the Croatian Chakavian or the Serbian East Shtokavian. With the granularity we see in other cultures (splitting Romanian into Wallachian, Transylvanian, and Moldavian!) I think this could merit the addition of a Kajkavian-speaking Slavonian culture that may later merge into the Croatian, though no doubt this would upset a lot of people!

View attachment 1222480

You misunderstood, the Kajkavian speech developed by mixing Chakavian with the Slovenian language because they originate from the same speech base and that speech developed before Western Shtokavian, and Western Shtokavian developed directly from Chakavian. You described well the merging of modern Croatian with modern Serbian in two variants (Serbo-Croatian and Croatian-Serbian).

 

[Delmaree]

It is good that you saw some of our feedback and fixed religion in Bosnia as much as records allow, it is way more Catholic now as it historically was, Bosnian church was indeed confined to central areas in general with outer areas being Catholic/Orthodox.

 

[Dimitrij Dimitrinov]

Can someone help me, but shouldn't this part of Croatia be completely integrated into the personal union with Hungary, not just Slavonia. I know that this part was only formally dependent on the king in 1102., although that also changed 200 years later, with the d’ Anjou dynasty coming to power. What should have happened in this period of the 13th century.

 

[Jon Snow21]

Wow you really listened my feedback about the resources in Moldova. Guys you are really great!!! I am not sure about the culture of Modovan since is one of the most debated topics in Moldova nowadays. Some people consider themselves Romanians and other Moldovans. I am not sure what to say but you guys have more historical documents in hands than me.

 

[Árpád Álmosfi]

Can someone help me, but shouldn't this part of Croatia be completely integrated into the personal union with Hungary, not just Slavonia. I know that this part was only formally dependent on the king in 1102., although that also changed 200 years later, with the d’ Anjou dynasty coming to power. What should have happened in this period of the 13th century.
View attachment 1222522

Ngl as a Hungarian i still find the independent Croatia odd. Might be because of my Hungary-centric education, but at no point was Croatia seen as separate by us. They got their autonomy and the Ban, but they still paid taxes, still sent soldiers, and as far as i remember, never rebelled post-1102.

Slavonia and the area around though was heavily settled by hungarians, and controlled by them even before László marched into Croatia proper.

 

[Mingmung]

I reason I believe the devs decided to skip over the British and Russian regions is because the UN forces needed needed to intervene quickly.

Contrary to Ludi, I don't believe this feedback page was as wild as the previous one. It was quite civil, for Balkan standards.

What the heck is Ludi talking about.

 

[Makkasag]

What the heck is Ludi talking about.

Herpa derpa schtacka-wipenicken.

But we are getting off topic.

 

[Mingmung]

Herpa derpa schtacka-wipenicken.

View attachment 1222526

But we are getting off topic.

It generates clicks; Fair enough.

 

[domagoj222]

Can someone help me, but shouldn't this part of Croatia be completely integrated into the personal union with Hungary, not just Slavonia. I know that this part was only formally dependent on the king in 1102., although that also changed 200 years later, with the d’ Anjou dynasty coming to power. What should have happened in this period of the 13th century.
View attachment 1222522

Simplification: Ban of Slavonia and Ban of Croatia-Dalmatia (and Herceg ) was in open rebbelion against crown of Hungary-Croatia from 1322 - 1344. In 1337 ban of Slavonia was fighting on side of kingdom of Hungary-Croatia.

 

[Makkasag]

But we are getting off topic.

Speaking of, is this a good place to start pinging devs about questions of the character naming system?

 

[Zeprion]

What the heck is Ludi talking about.

Thumbnail is clickbait. His only major issues were with Moldavia being way too underdeveloped, basically turning it into a nuclear wasteland. And the Romanians in Transylvania. Other than that, he praised the map for being accurate.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

Does anyone actually take Ludi seriously

 

[ArVass]

What the heck is Ludi talking about.

He is looking real smug on that cover

Thumbnail is clickbait. His only major issues were with Moldavia being way too underdeveloped, basically turning it into a nuclear wasteland. And the Romanians in Transylvania. Other than that, he praised the map for being accurate.

I mean, Moldavia being severely underdeveloped is definitely accurate for 1337... it has been under steppe nomad control for centuries at this point and subject to several wars and skirmishes, it shouldn't be very developed lol

On Romanians in Transylvania.... this spread is very realistic and at places even more than what was attested in 1337 (like in Zilah), I think it's a good compromise

 

[ArVass]

Does anyone actually take Ludi seriously

Waay too many people

 

[Árpád Álmosfi]

Btw ArVass, since you are pretty much the champion of hungarians on these threads, what's your take on the Croatia situation?

 

[Wildrake]

Thumbnail is clickbait. His only major issues were with Moldavia being way too underdeveloped, basically turning it into a nuclear wasteland. And the Romanians in Transylvania. Other than that, he praised the map for being accurate.

It kinda makes sense being underdeveloped. In your previous response, you pointed out that Moldova underwent a sort of demographic change, previously it underwent depopulation by Golden Horde. I would argue that places like Shehr al-Djedid should at least have some development but it is totally missing from the map.

 

[ArVass]

Btw ArVass, since you are pretty much the champion of hungarians on these threads, what's your take on the Croatia situation?

It was technically an independent country in a PU, although personally I think there should be an "intermediate" type of PU that's closer than a regular PU (harder to break apart, for example) but still not an intergrated land. But maybe that's already possible in the game mechanics?