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Pavía

Content Design Lead PDX Tinto
Paradox Staff
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Jan 3, 2006
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Hello everybody, and welcome to the map review of one more region: Carpathia and the Balkans! This one has taken a bit to get out, as although it was almost finished a few weeks ago, we needed to double-check and correct some issues.

This area has had a lot of border changes that are not always very accurately documented, which leads to conflicting versions depending on the author. We have tried to collect the maximum amount of sources to make the best decision that we could. If you disagree, do not hesitate to comment on it, but please remain civil. Many of these borders are up to interpretation and we might not agree with which one is the correct one, which is fine, as it's as long as we have an informed and polite debate.

Without further ado, the changelog will speak for itself, while I show some new map screenshots:

ADDITIONS

Added the following:
  • Locations (155+ 5 Lakes + 27 Wastelands)
    • Aiud
    • Archar
    • Arilje
    • Babadag
    • Băița
    • Baja
    • Ballsh
    • Bălți
    • Bardejov
    • Beden
    • Borač
    • Brskovo
    • Brvenik
    • Bizya
    • Bukov
    • Careii Mari
    • Cegani
    • Cernavodă
    • Cetățeni
    • Cheresig
    • Chișinău
    • Cincu
    • Constanța
    • Corabia
    • Cotnari
    • Cozia
    • Cristuru Secuiesc
    • Csurgó
    • Dabas
    • Dobrolak
    • Dombóvár
    • Drăgășani
    • Elhovo
    • Enisala
    • Găiseni
    • Giannitsa
    • Gigen
    • Glamoč
    • Glavacioc
    • Glaž
    • Gönc
    • Gratia
    • Gravia
    • Gura Galbenei
    • Gynaikokastro
    • Hajdúszoboszló
    • Hangu
    • Has
    • Heves
    • Hodod
    • Hunedoara
    • (Ilirska) Bistrica
    • Ineu
    • Isaccea
    • Kaposvár
    • Kapuvár
    • Karlovac
    • Kecskemét
    • Kikinda
    • Kladentsi
    • Körmend
    • Kostenets
    • Kozara
    • Kranj
    • Kremnica
    • Krupina
    • Ktenia
    • Kutina
    • Laško
    • Lipnic
    • Lipova
    • Lom
    • Lyaskovets
    • Makó
    • Medveđa
    • Meteleu
    • Metlika
    • Mežhorje
    • Miskolc
    • Modoš
    • Mohács
    • Mukachevo
    • Nagyecsed
    • Nagykanizsa
    • Nevesinje
    • Nógrád
    • Novi Sad
    • Olovo
    • Oradea
    • Ormenio
    • Osijek
    • Otočac
    • Palada
    • Pančevo
    • Pápa
    • Pârscov
    • Perperek
    • Petrovaradin
    • Piatra lui Crăciun
    • Pitești
    • Plenița
    • Podmuráň
    • Poenari
    • Považská Bystrica
    • Prievidza
    • Ptuj
    • Putna
    • Radovanu
    • Recaș
    • Reghin
    • Reni
    • Rožňava
    • Ruse
    • Šabac
    • Salgótarján
    • Sarata
    • Sárbogárd
    • Sátoraljaújhely
    • Șemlacu Mare
    • Siátista
    • Sighet
    • Siklós
    • Sinj
    • Siret
    • Sisak
    • Slănic
    • Slobozia
    • (Slovenj) Gradec
    • Solt
    • Srb
    • Ștefănești
    • Storozhynets
    • Strelcha
    • Svoge
    • Szabolcs
    • Szarvas
    • Szombathely
    • Târgul Sărăţii
    • Tata
    • Teočak
    • Tirana
    • Trnava
    • Tsaribrod
    • Tuzara
    • Týrnavos
    • Ungheni
    • Ustra
    • Vatra Dornei
    • Veliki Preslav
    • Velykyi Bereznyi
    • Viadineți
    • Viziru
    • Zalaegerszeg
    • Žilina
    • Zvolen
  • Lakes
    • Lake Achinos
    • Lake Neusiedl
    • Lake Kopais
    • Lake Trichonida
    • Lake Volvi
  • Wastelands
    • Divided many Wastelands in more pieces.
  • TAGs
    • Arianiti
    • Baia
    • Bârlad
    • Hansca
    • Hotin
    • Iaşi
    • Mataranga
    • Muzaka
    • Soroca
    • Străşineţ
    • Thopia
  • Characters
    • thp_tanush_thopia
    • thp_andrea_thopia
    • thp_helene_anjou
    • thp_karl_thopia
    • mzk_andrea_ii_muzaka
    • mzk_efimia_mataranga
    • mzk_gjin_muzaka
    • ant_golem_arianiti
    • mtr_pal_mataranga
  • Dynamic Names
    • Added tons of Albanian, Bulgarian German, East Slavic, Greek Hungarian, Romanian, Serbo-Croatian, Slovak, Transylvanian Saxon and Turkish, Dynamic Names.
CORRECTIONS

Renamed the following:
  • Locations (only corrections. Additionally renamed all location to standardized form):
    • Argeş to Argeș
    • Bîrlad a Bârlad
    • Boruj to Boruy
    • Brǎila to Brăila
    • Bucuresti to Bucharest
    • Buzǎu to Buzău
    • Cîmpulung Moldovenesc to Câmpulung
    • Cudalvi to Cudalbi
    • Élis to Pontikokastro
    • Györ to Győr
    • Hateg to Hațeg
    • Hîrlău a Hârlău
    • Ilak to Ilok
    • Jakeb-Szállása to Jakabszállás
    • Koloszvár to Cluj
    • Korosbanya to Baia Crișului
    • Peč to Peć
    • Râmnicu Sǎrat to Râmnicu Sărat
    • Râmnicu Vâlcea to Râmnic
    • Ruşii de Vede to Rușii de Vede
    • Sǎcuieni to Vălenii de Munte
    • Sofia to Sredets
    • Sremska Mitrovica to Mitrovica
    • Strimba to Strâmba
    • Târgu Bengǎi to Târgu Bengăi
    • Vaska to Vaška
Cultures
  • Removed Rusyn culture (replaced with Halychian)
Raw Goods
  • Changed several Raw Goods as suggested
Terrain and Vegetation
  • Total Review
Locations
  • Redrew several Locations
Minorities
  • Added more minorities

Countries
Countries.png

Filled wastelands.png

The two biggest changes here are the new tags in Moldavia and Albania. There still will be an event early in the game for Moldavia, although now it will be about the unification of the tags that start ruled by the Golden Horde into the March, later Principality, of Moldavia.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Notice that many places have no known rulers and dynasties are so created dynamically.

Locations
Locations.png

Locations2.png

Locations3.png

Locations4.png

Provinces
Provinces.png

Bîrlad should Bârlad (already corrected)
Areas
Areas.png


Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Some wastelands in the Carpathians have disappeared, and are now just Mountains; however, they will continue being quite strategic in winter, as the mountain passes may freeze, blocking movement.

Development
Development.png

The first time you see this map! The more mountainous regions have less development, for obvious reasons.

Natural Harbors
Harbors.png


Cultures
Cultures.png

There are also some changes in this distribution. The most important ones are the Rusyn culture being replaced by Halychian, and Moldovan being its own culture in the setup.

Dominant Language
Dominant Language.png

The dominant language per location. We have not yet done the dialects, our lower level, which is used for flavor on location and character names, so suggestions are welcome.

Common Language
Common Language.png

The common language in each country.

Court Language
Court Language.png


Religion
Religion.png


Raw Materials
Raw materials.png


Markets
Markets.png

There haven't been any changes in this map, but I wanted to show you how our dynamic localization for locations works (please remember that you can set it as you prefer with a game rule!)

And this is all for today! We'll read your feedback and answer your questions, as usual. This Friday we will have a new Tinto Maps, about North America; the next Tinto Maps Feedback will be devoted to Russia, although we don't know yet exactly when. Cheers!
 
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Respectfully, many region names in Bosnia and Serbia do not align with historical names that were used for each respective reason. CK3 and EUIV had way more accurate names. Please consider updating some of those.
Please consider giving specific examples, so we can double-check if they're fit.
 
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Good job with this review, as usual I have prepared some questions:

1-Are there gonna be events regarding the rise and fall of the Serbian Empire?
2-What's the 3 Venetian colonies' primary culture, Venetian or Greek?
3-Considering how many catholic tags are still present in 1337 is there something to rapresent the "will" of the crusader states to restore the Latin Empire(and maybe the kingdom of Thessalonica) like a situation or an IO? After all there was still a titular empress with a claim to the throne(Catherine II of Valois-Courtenay).
4-Does the Byzantine empire start with the embraced meritocracy institution since historically they had a very beaurocratic administration similar to the Chinese?
5-Is bulgaria considered a Kingdom or an empire tier tag at the start since the country is know to this day as the second Bulgarian Empire and their ruler is a Tsar which comes from the word Caesar and was used to refer as someone on the same level of a Roman Emperor?
6-Do Orthodox tags need to "have" an autunomous patriarch to elevate themselves to the rank of Empire? If not then it should probably be so since that's basically what Serbian, Bulgarian and Russian rulers did to gain the authority to become Tsars and it also has to do with both Catholic and Orthidox theologies, which say that the only Christian empire in the world should be Rome(Hre for catholics and Byzanthium for Orthodox under the Ecumeniacal patriarchate), both the Bulgarians and Serbs had to break away from Constantinople and Byzanthium to declare themselves emperors while Moscow declared itself third Rome after the fall in 1453
7-Does the count of Salona Alfonso Fradique start with ownership of the location of Malta? He was count of Malta in 1337 which unlike Salona(which was under direct vassalage of Athens) made him a direct vassal of the King of Sicily, so it would be more accurate to have Malta as a tag from the start in a P.U. with Salona especially considering he's an illegitimate son of the King making the situation quite interesting.

One last thing could you post the current flags of the tags in this region please? I was thinking of making a thread about the most appropriate ones for the time period since I doubt there's going to be a "tinto flags" any time soon!
1. Yes.
2. Greek
3. We're mostly focusing on historical content, so not really. The Knights have content on their own, but it's most focused on their 'crusading lifestyle'.
4. No, as we're currently considering Meritocracy the Chinese style of bureaucracy, not the different types of Western, Islamic, etc., ones.
5. Kingdom. Yes, the word 'Tsar' comes as a mimic of the Roman 'Caesar'; however, we only have two empires in Europe by 1337 - the Eastern Roman, and the Holy Roman.
6. There are some mechanics related to Autocephalous Patriarchates, which we'll talk about in due time.
7. No, taking note of it.
8. A bit too early, but we'll take it into account!
 
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Why aren't Naxos and Negroponte vassals of Venice?!?
Naxos is a subject of Achaia, which is in turn a subject of Naples. The Triarcy of Negroponte was quite autonomous at this stage, and it didn't become a clear subject of Venice until 1383-1390.
 
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A few notes:

1.) Why is Bulgarian not a South Slavic Language?

2.) Can you please give Greek, Turkic and Bulgarian Languages/Cultures more distinct colors.

3.) Shouldn't Bratislava/Pressburg and Sopron be majority German at this time?
1. All the Languages and Dialects in the region are a bit WIP right now, so we decided to use this thread to gather further feedback about them, now that the Culture and Language mechanics are disclosed.
2. It's in our list of TODOs, yes!
3. We'll check.
 
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Can we see the town/city map please?
I'm a bit reluctant, as we have a lot of balancing work yet to be done, so asking for feedback at this stage won't really be that useful. But we're looking forward to sharing those maps later on, yes!
 
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May I ask for what modifiers the terrain, climate and vegetation give? IIRC we only saw +10% food production for continental in one of the economy TTs.

eventually.
 
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Why don't Hungary and Bulgaria share a border? How is the war which broke out between the 2 in 1365 going to occur? Why isn't there a breakaway polity in Karvuna/Dobruja when it likely came to be all the way back in 1321? Why isn't Vidin at least autonomous when it was still ruled by a member of the Shishman dynasty in 1337? Why aren't there any Jasz people in Iasi?
1. This is one of the trickiest issue we had to tackle, as the historical sources are not clear at all, and give quite different information.
2. We consider that this is the most likely border in 1337, and that doesn't really affect a war, which can still happen.
3. That's something that we also discussed, and we're very likely to implement an event to let Karvuna split off Bulgaria.
4. Something that we also discussed, we think that the best way to portray it is as a low-control province, as we don't have good data either about who was ruling over it in 1337.
5. There are Jasz in the region.
 
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YAY Rusia is next, how long do you think till its feedback is finished?
A feedback post is never late, nor is it early. It arrives precisely when it means to.
 
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BYZ and NAP colors are too similar, confusing at first glance their vassals and stuff.
This is something we've put our eyes upon... Any suggestions for a Naples color change?

(Because if we propose to change the color of BYZ, I'm pretty sure that some byzantophiles will love to blind and castrate us...)
 
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@Pavía Since you gave me a helpful reaction last Friday when I linked my questions about NA feedback, but didn't actually give any answers, is it all going to be explained on Friday then?
Yes.
 
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It's rather striking that area of Northern Greece comprises mostly of Central Greece and Albania. Maybe split it to two and name accordingly?
Not really a good flavor name for it, we're open to suggestions, yes.
 
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Is Achaea ruled by Catherine II? In that case Cephalonia(which I assume is ruled by her son Robert II) should be a direct vassal of Achea which should be vassal of Naples
Achaea is ruled by Catherine II, and Cephalonia by his son, Robert II, indeed. While Achaea is a subject of Naples, we haven't made Cephalonia the subject of anyone, I'll double-check, and make a hotfix, if that's the case, thanks for noting!
 
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@Pavía It doesn't seem you guys implemented the list of Venetian/Genoese location names in which I also found some informations(taken mainly by communal and state archives) regarding the ownership of certain cities,trading posts, forts etc... I posted, did it not go through or are you still reviewing it?
Could you link it again, please?
 
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Another thing, could you post the resources/materials map mode? There are a few things worth checking there after all.
It is already posted...?
 
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Are the Albanian tags vassals of Naples?
Albania, ruled by Charles of Durazzo, is a subject of Naples; then Muzaka, Thopia, Arianiti, and Mataranga are all subjects of Albania.
 
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Have you guys set in stone the Gallo-Italic language being separate from the rest of Italian?Not to be rude so i wont talk about it anywhere else again about this divide,just to have certainty about it
Very likely, yes.
 
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Albania is a kingdom level title right, even though Charles is known as the duke of Durazzo(because he ruled only over that pretty much)?
Is Albania a PU of Naples or a normal vassal? Also, is it at this point a Kingdom rank or Duchy?
First thing, why is Albania, along with tits vassals, a vassal of Naples? Nice to see they new Albanian principalities, though.
1. Currently the country rank is not set.
2. Normal subject, Naples is ruled by King Robert II.
3. Albania was created by King Charles I for one of his sons, from where the Durazzo branch of the dynasty came.
 
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