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From "Loanwords in the world's languages":

3.2.3. Later contact with Slavic languages

In addition to the comparatively early South Slavic influence, there was more localized contact between Romanian and individual Slavic languages at later dates. Thereis evidence of contact between Romanian and Ukrainian that must have taken placeafter the 12th century (as shown by the fact that borrowing took place after aUkrainian [h]>[g] change, dated around the 12th century, cf. Mih"il" 1973: 46) inthe north, of contact with Serbian since the 15th century in the east, as well as continuing contact with Bulgarian in the south. These regionally limited contactsituations were characterized by interaction, in most domains of everyday life, between the Slavic and the Romanian populations in the respective areas.

So after 1100-1200 is when Romanians likely reached North-Central Moldavia.
I don't see how the source points to that. All it says is that these 2 cultures interacted after 1100, which is true as they were neighbours, but that's about all it says.

So the Romanians likely had contact with the Ukrainians over the Dniester river, which continued after the 12th century when the [h]>[g] change was made.
 
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I don't see how the source points to that. All it says is that these 2 cultures interacted after 1100, which is true as they were neighbours, but that's about all it says.

So the Romanians likely had contact with the Ukrainians over the Dniester river, which continued after the 12th century when the [h]>[g] change was made.
True by itself it doesn't mean much, but I think the fact that South Slavic influence is more pervasive combined with the fact the only(?) East Slavic loanwords are dated to after 1100-1200 suggests this.

Maybe Moldavian has loanwords from East Slavic before 1100, I'm open to the evidence, but given they mentioned the 12th century I assume they are saying there are no such loanwords prior(and I also assume by 1000 CE East and South Slavic should be decently distinct already)
 
True by itself it doesn't mean much, but I think the fact that South Slavic influence is more pervasive combined with the fact the only(?) East Slavic loanwords are dated to after 1100-1200 suggests this.

Maybe Moldavian has loanwords from East Slavic before 1100, I'm open to the evidence, but given they mentioned the 12th century I assume they are saying there are no such loanwords prior(and I also assume by 1000 CE East and South Slavic should be decently distinct already)
South Slavic influence being more pervasive is a given. Considering that during the slavic migration those that had first contact with Romanians were the would be South Slavs. South Slavs is what made the Daco-Romans from Dacian + Roman to Dacian + Roman + Slavic.

nq0FJHu.jpg


This is rather speculative. Even if Moldavian doesn't have loanwords from East Slavic before 1100, it doesn't say anything about the location. They may as well have made contact on the Dniester river in 1100.

It is also possible that the loanword could have been taken at a later date in 1300 or 1400. As what the text seems to say is that they were/were still neighbours when the change happened in East Slavic in 1100.

And as you pointed out, in what ways were 1000 East and South Slavic different in 1000 CE? can we confidently say that we are able to tell what is South Slavic influence and East Slavic influence in regards to language before the [h]>[g] change in East Slavic?
 
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And as you pointed out, in what ways were 1000 East and South Slavic different in 1000 CE? can we confidently say that we are able to tell what is South Slavic influence and East Slavic influence in regards to language before the [h]>[g] change in East Slavic?
I'm fairly sure we can, I've seen linguistic argument based on dating of sound changes in South Slavic before 1000 CE, which strike me as unlikely to be detectable if otherwise all Slavic stayed purely uniform until 1000 CE
 
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And what about the Vajdaság situation? I was hoping others could chip in on the ethnic makeup of Southern Hungary, specifically the parts (around Csongrád and Csanád?!) that are currently shown as Serbian majority regions.
Csongrád is not affected by this, however Temesvár is and it shouldn't be Serbian, nor should be Nagybecskerek and maybe even Módos. Tried to demonstrate on a map where the line should be.

I also visualized some corrections to the Székelys and Csángós specifically:
- Felvinc should be Székely
- Regen should be Transylvanian Saxon (with a Hungarian minority?)
- shown Csángó as a separate culture: its range here also covers Roman and Adjud. I think a yellowish-goldish colour would look good with it, I like this shade
- also, made Roman Csángó majority here. This is probably not accurate, I did it to piss everyone off.
- I did not display the German population in Northwestern Moldavia

1732738059996.png



Also, made a map demonstrating how Félegyháza is not in Félegyháza currently. (@Mingmung you asked for this)
Map is a bit crowded because I literally just overlaid a modern map of Hungary on the locations map, but I have highlighted the problem.
The easiest solution, as mentioned before, would be renaming Kiskunfélegyháza to Halas and Jakabszállása to Félegyháza. The Kiskun- prefix is optional for both but it wasn't customary to use it.
1732735433139.png
 
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When did the Rusyn community emerge? I'm not a big fan of "mountains = separation" because Rusyn live on both sides of the Carpathians technically, even if most live on the Pannonian side.

The common sense logic of "mountains are barriers" fails for groups like the Arpitans/Occitans on the Alps, Germans in the Alps, Romanians, Ossetians etc.
slavs lived in podkarpatska since the slavic migrations. the cultural divides between what we today call rusyns and other eastern slavs started happening around the eleventh century when the hungarian kingdom started to intensify magyarization efforts.

it's just plain wrong to put the halychian label on a group which was never under the principality or kingdom, and whose culture never had that much of an impact on the people living there. the only shared link is that both groups are eastern slavic and that some slavs in podkarpatska came from galicia. there isn't much of a debate if rusyns belong to the galician identity, because we clearly never were a part of it besides shared roots.

i believe that the issue arises with the name iteslf, since it causes confusion with the term ruthenian. the history and semantics are very complex, but it'd be much more accurate to slap the rusyn label on the slavs living in hungary than to attach them to an identity which they never had.

edit: boykos and lemkos exist ofc, but they're not much of a factor when it comes to the issue of national identity in a grand strategy game lmfao
 
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slavs lived in podkarpatska since the slavic migrations. the cultural divides between what we today call rusyns and other eastern slavs started happening around the eleventh century when the hungarian kingdom started to intensify magyarization efforts.

it's just plain wrong to put the halychian label on a group which was never under the principality or kingdom, and whose culture never had that much of an impact on the people living there. the only shared link is that both groups are eastern slavic and that some slavs in podkarpatska came from galicia. there isn't much of a debate if rusyns belong to the galician identity, because we clearly never were a part of it besides shared roots.

i believe that the issue arises with the name iteslf, since it causes confusion with the term ruthenian. the history and semantics are very complex, but it'd be much more accurate to slap the rusyn label on the slavs living in hungary than to attach them to an identity which they never had.

edit: boykos and lemkos exist ofc, but they're not much of a factor when it comes to the issue of national identity in a grand strategy game lmfao
I don't fully buy the idea that the Slavs there are just direct continuation of the white croats or whoever, any such claim needs further argumentation. East Slavs were not born as Orthodox Rus people, they became so during the late 9th and mid 10th century and if the Rusyn took part in that change despite being part of Hungary it should leads us to question how that process happened.

What makes you think that only "some" Slavs came? What exact evidence is there of a continuous independent Rusyn community? Like to me I can't see how we can be sure the Rusyn community was not formed by short distance migrations from Galicia(just like Occitan spread to Catalonia and many other similar examples) during the high middle ages preceding 1337, which as you mentioned did happen.
 
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I'm skeptical of this, because Rusyn still carry the name Rus derived from the Novgoridan Scandinavian Rus and are Orthodox, which doesn't seem likely if they were just Slavs that happened to live there when Hungary expanded around the 10th century.
I never stated that they were separate Slavs. Word Ruthenia is also attributed to the word Rus‘. I think at that time it was a common way to refer to East Slavs.

So back to the question, why should word Rusyn bring close to word Rus‘ be a reason that Rusyn should be merged with Halychian?
 
I never stated that they were separate Slavs. Word Ruthenia is also attributed to the word Rus‘. I think at that time it was a common way to refer to East Slavs.

So back to the question, why should word Rusyn bring close to word Rus‘ be a reason that Rusyn should be merged with Halychian?
We need good evidence of the Rusyn being distinct from Galicians base solely on 14th century and prior evidence, which has not been provided so far.
 
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I'm fairly sure we can, I've seen linguistic argument based on dating of sound changes in South Slavic before 1000 CE, which strike me as unlikely to be detectable if otherwise all Slavic stayed purely uniform until 1000 CE
But how uniform were they? as south slavic isn't one single thing, there is such a thing as language continum.

In regards to the direct evidence we discussed.

See my post from page 14 for the complete version with sources and everything:
But to summarize.

With or without linguistic evidence, the last evidence of Slavs in Moldavia we have is from the 10th century. Since the 10th century we have no sources mentioning Slavs living in Moldavia, either before or after 1337. By contrast, we have Vlachs mentioned living in Moldavia, including Northern Moldavia, up to 1337, and of course even after 1337.

Thus, the most reasonable deduction we can make is that Romanians kept being more and more numerous in Moldavia since the 10th century while the Slavs slowly disappeared/became less significant since the 10th century. Possibly a leftover minority, possibly none at all.

But, in 1337 specifically, all unnamed voivodships in Moldavia were mentioned as being Vlach, with no exception. It is reasonable to assume that had Slavs existed in Moldavia by 1337 we would have a mention of at least one Slavic Moldavian voivodship, but we only know of Vlach Moldavian voivodships in this period.

Additionally, 50 years after 1337, we have this source. Where all cities from Moldavia are listed as "Vlach" cities, including in Northern Moldavia, and even some outside of Moldavia on the northern border (in Galitia).

These are some of the cities that were listed as "Vlach cities" in the list of Russian cities: (using Russian and Ukrainian wikipedias)
russianwiki.png

ukrainianwiki.png

Even Chern, which was not part of Moldavia, was listed as a "Vlach city".

Which I would regard as more concrete evidence than linguistics. Not to say linguistics is bad, it can tell us a lot, but it's a lot more speculative. Where as if you have an administrative document mentioning a people in a region, even a handful of mentions as you said, it's likely those people were in that region.

But at the end of the day we have a severe lack of documents in this region, it's like a dark age. Anything could have happened.

Well, not anything, but a lot.

In my opinion, the map the devs made in this feedback is the most accurate we can get in 1337.
Cultures.png


Yes, there are no records of the slavs in Moldavia since the 10th century and no records after 1337, but as Ludi said, it's likely some of them still existed in the north. While the Romanian accounts are scarce between 10th-13th century, but they exist, even if scarce. As a lot of things in this region in this time period is scarce. And after 1337 the records start to become even more numerous.

Based on this, the most natural assumption is that they were in 1337 there if you can find them before 1337 and after 1337 too.

Of course using the few scarce records we have it's speculative, but there is no way you can be anything but speculative with the information we have.

Even the linguistic argument, it's not less speculative but more speculative, as all it says as a core is interaction after 1100, which is not much, and kind of evident as they were neighbours. Or the toponyms, who get even more speculative, if it is possible in the 21st century for people to inhabit localities with names of different origin, which hold no meaning for them, it was no less possible in the 1337, as they merely explain the name of those who founded the cities. Not the ones who currently live in them in 1337.
 
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Csongrád is not affected by this, however Temesvár is and it shouldn't be Serbian, nor should be Nagybecskerek and maybe even Módos. Tried to demonstrate on a map where the line should be.

I also visualized some corrections to the Székelys and Csángós specifically:
- Felvinc should be Székely
- Regen should be Transylvanian Saxon (with a Hungarian minority?)
- shown Csángó as a separate culture: its range here also covers Roman and Adjud. I think a yellowish-goldish colour would look good with it, I like this shade
- also, made Roman Csángó majority here. This is probably not accurate, I did it to piss everyone off.
- I did not display the German population in Northwestern Moldavia

View attachment 1222689


Also, made a map demonstrating how Félegyháza is not in Félegyháza currently. (@Mingmung you asked for this)
Map is a bit crowded because I literally just overlaid a modern map of Hungary on the locations map, but I have highlighted the problem.
The easiest solution, as mentioned before, would be renaming Kiskunfélegyháza to Halas and Jakabszállása to Félegyháza. The Kiskun- prefix is optional for both but it wasn't customary to use it.
View attachment 1222661
that small romanian dot in transylvania is meant to be Kolozsvár?
 
But how uniform were they? as south slavic isn't one single thing, there is such a thing as language continum.

In regards to the direct evidence we discussed.

These cities were listed as "Vlach cities" in the list of Russian cities:
View attachment 1222696
View attachment 1222697
This is about 50 years after 1337.

Even Chern, which was not part of Moldavia, was listed as a "Vlach city".

Which I would regard as more concrete evidence than linguistics. Not to say linguistics is bad, it can tell us a lot, but it's a lot more speculative. Where as if you have an administrative document mentioning a people in a region, even a handful of mentions as you said, it's likely those people were in that region.

But at the end of the day we have a severe lack of documents in this region, it's like a dark age. Anything could have happened.

Well, not anything, but a lot.

In my opinion, the map the devs made in this feedback is the most accurate we can get in 1337.
View attachment 1222708

Yes, there are no records of the slavs in Moldavia since the 10th century and no records after 1337, but as Ludi said, it's likely some of them still existed in the north. While the Romanian accounts are scarce between 10th-13th century, but they exist, even if scarce. As a lot of things in this region in this time period is scarce. And after 1337 the records start to become even more numerous.

Based on this, the most natural assumption is that they were in 1337 there if you can find them before 1337 and after 1337 too.

Of course using the few scarce records we have it's speculative, but there is no way you can be anything but speculative with the information we have.

Even the linguistic argument, it's not less speculative but more speculative, as all it says as a core is interaction after 1100, which is not much, and kind of evident as they were neighbours. Or the toponyms, who get even more speculative, if it is possible in the 21st century for people to inhabit localities with names of different origin, which hold no meaning for them, it was no less possible in the 1337, as they merely explain the name of those who founded the cities. Not the ones who currently live in them in 1337.
What's the list from?

Anyway the linguistic argument is fairly strong, to me it is impossible to have modern Moldavian Romanian be descendant from, say, a 7th, 8th or even 9th and 10th century stable Romanian dialect, because the amount and consistency of South Slavic influence is too high for it to have pervaded a large Romanian linguistic community, the linguistic argument for Common Romanian splitting around 900-1000 CE to me is pretty solid. As we go past the 10th century it becomes too muddy to say it's impossible and I think by 1200 CE all of Romania had at least some Romanians around, if not many majorities.
 
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What's the list from?

Anyway the linguistic argument is fairly strong, to me it is impossible to have modern Moldavian Romanian be descendant from, say, a 7th, 8th or even 9th and 10th century stable Romanian dialect, because the amount and consistency of South Slavic influence is too high for it to have pervaded a large Romanian linguistic community, the linguistic argument for Common Romanian splitting around 900-1000 CE to me is pretty solid. As we go past the 10th century it becomes too muddy to say it's impossible and I think by 1200 CE all of Romania had at least some Romanians around, if not many majorities.
It's a Russian document called "the list of Russian cities"

No langauge is set in stone, even today, language changes. I have a hard time reading Romanian texts from 1700 because the language changed (and the langauge is far more standardized today than it used to be) and Romanian is one of the lucky ones that was relatively unchanged from 1521 when we have first account of written Romanian. I say relatively, because other languages are nothing like their medieval variant, it sounds like another language. Was there a stable Romanian dialect in the first place? or was it simply formed retroactively afterwards? after territorial independence and most importantly after the century of nationalism?
 
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On the territory of modern Moldova, two Golden Horde cities were found that existed in 1340-1360: near Costești and Old Orhei (their Turkic name are unknown).

The Arab historian Abulfeda (1273-1331) in his Taqwim al-Buldan ("A Sketch of the Countries"; c. 1321) mentions that in 1321 Issaccea was a city of medium size within the “Country of Wallachs and Constantinople”, with dominant Muslim population. The second town mentioned by Abulfeda is Akkerman (Aqcha-kerman in Arabic), small town within the “Country of Bulgars and Turks”, populated both by Muslims and “infidels”.

The city of Akkerman (modern Ukrainian Bilhorod-Dnistrovsky, medieval Arabic Aqcha Kerman, Genoese Moncastro, Slavic Belgorod, Greek Asprokastron/Ἀσπρόκαστρον, Latin Albo Castro/Album Castrum, Romanian Cetatea Albă) was an important trade city, often mentioned in historical sources. The Genoese merchants had a factory in the city.
 
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It's a Russian document called "the list of Russian cities"

No langauge is set in stone, even today, language changes. I have a hard time reading Romanian texts from 1700 because the language changed (and the langauge is far more standardized today than it used to be) and Romanian is one of the lucky ones that was relatively unchanged from 1521 when we have first account of written Romanian. I say relatively, because other languages are nothing like their medieval variant, it sounds like another language. Was there a stable Romanian dialect in the first place? or was it simply formed retroactively afterwards? after territorial independence and most importantly after the century of nationalism?
I mean you can argue that surviving Romanians replaced other sizeable para-Romanian dialects, but to me it seems more parsimonious to say that as far as most of Romania is concerned it was either mostly or entirely Slavic for centuries and then Romanian presence started at some point between 800-1200 depending on your favourite theory and the region in question and then within a few centuries Romanian took over and assimilated all Slavs. The linguistic evidence fits this broad view.

Like yeah languages are not stable but neither are they entire disordered stochastic entities, if Common Romanian seems to fragment around a specific point in time there must be a reason and to me the parsimonious explanation is that at thatpoint the Romanian communities were too widespread and locally stable enough to not maintain all of the sound changes across the entire community as well as not spread all the loanwords to other Romanians.

Anyway I'm not sure Budjak should be Romanian, I thought Turks dominated it
 
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Bosnia should definitely have more Croatian culture considering the northern and western sections of the region were controlled by Croatia or Croatian lords from the 700s to the 1322 (Battle of Bliska) which saw the end of the Šubić Bribirski line's dominance over Bosnia. 1322 was only like 15 years before the start date of this project, so it would make sense...



Cultures fix.png
 
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