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Tinto Maps #30 - 20th of December 2024 - South America

Hello and welcome to one Friday of map-loving! Today is special, as our 30th Tinto Maps, devoted to South America, is the last regular one. This implies that it won’t be the last, though - we plan to have two Tinto Maps Extra on December 27th and January 3rd, and then we will continue with the Tinto Maps Feedback posts as we progress with the map review.

But don’t worry, as on the first post-Christmas Friday, January 10th, I will start a new series, Tinto Flavor, in which we will show the content that we have been working on for Project Caesar. And I promise you, it’s a ton of content, so you will have to play the game in due time to discover it all…

Before we continue, one note: as we're covering a lot of lands today, don't be shy and ask for more detailed maps of the type you want wherever you want them, and I'll try to provide in the replies. And now, let’s start with the South American maps:

Countries
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Most of the countries that can be considered being at a State-wise level in 1337 are mostly concentrated in what is today Perú. We have famous ones, as the Chimu or Chincha, and you may also see a tiny country, Qusqu, which would later become the Inca Empire, the long-term goal while playing in the region.

Dynasties
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SoPs
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There are SoPs spread out all across the continent, making for a really interesting mix in the Peruvian area (again). We're already thinking about how to better visualize the coexistence of these two types of countries in the political layer, but it's going to take us some more time to get there.

Locations
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One note: I'll talk a bit more in-depth about the design of the Brazilian locations if you scroll down, in the Terrain section.

Provinces
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Areas
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Terrain
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There are huge geographical variations in South America, being one of the most diverse continents. One of the things I wanted to discuss is that we've tried to portray the Mata Atlântica, the original forest cover that was present in Brazil before the Portuguese colonized it, and a different type of land exploitation started. In this regard, we've been reading the feedback of the Brazilian community, and I want to say that our intention here is to portray the most realistic situation for 1337. That said, we've already internally discussed that we may reduce its scope, so it doesn't look so extreme, but we'd like to hear your opinions about it. And here you have one of the images that we used as a reference for it, so you get a good grasp of our intention:
Mata Atlantica.png

Development
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Natural Harbors
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Culture
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The jewel of the crown in this region. We've tried to portray the Pre-Columbian cultural diversity of these lands as accurately as possible, and, well, here you have the results.

Languages
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And the languages that group these cultures.

Religions
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We've tried to do our best to group the cultural religions of South America into different groups, based on common believes, gods, rituals, etc. Let us know what do you think of them. Oh, also, the Inti religion has its own differentiate mechanics, which we'll explain in the future!

Raw Goods
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Lots of different natural resources in South America. You may note that some are more common compared to other regions (such as Medicaments). We've also been tweaking the color of different resources, with the help of your feedback!

Markets
Markets.png

The green market is centered around Teyuna, and the red one is Chinchay.

Population
Some issues with the map of the region this week (sadly), so let's discuss the numbers. The total in the continent is 10.22M, divided this way:
  • 1.66M in Colombia
  • 1.2M in Brazil
  • 5.07M in Andes
  • 877K in Chaco
  • 1.4M in La Plata
And that's all for today! We hope that you enjoyed the Tinto Maps series! We've definitely done, and it's also greatly helping us to make Project Caesar a much better game, with your help and feedback. Cheers!
 
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I think many of the locations in southern Peru (especially Ica) and northern Chile are a bit to big and 'clumpsy' considering the great detail of the interior. Maybe they could be split up to more resemble the density of locations in the rest of the continent?
 
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That is a lot of a LOT of wasteland in that map.
 
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One thing that always annoyed me in EU4 is that if you only colonised Brazil the Western Amazon waste lands wouldn’t fill in, and I know that’s just the map painter inside me saying that but I think it’s still important to do also long as it does entirely misrepresent local/geographical borders. I haven’t done the calculation for this map but it should be the same as in EU4 so my proposed location is this:
IMG_6741.jpeg

Note:It is theoretically possible that you have already done this as you can’t see the individual wastelands if they border each other as they just look like one big one but considering the borders of the provinces I doubt it.

Obviously this was very rushed and eyeballed but the idea stands which would make a Brazil look much nicer and also I think it would make sense as a nation that controlled the entire of Peru coast should be able to easterly claim the uninhabited rainforest right on their border compared to a nation that only controls the Brazilian coast.
 
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the wasteland seems strange to me, if the colonisers had landed somewhere different such as in the areas that are wastelands here then wouldnt they have pushed further and colonised that "wasteland" instead. what about a system that would impose progressively larger negative modifiers on colonising areas near existing colonies be able to represent more dynamic colonial histories with colonies able to exist and prosper in any area along the coast instead of limiting players to establishing colonies only in the territory that were colonised historically
 
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I think islands that did not have any indigenous pops, like Azores or here South Georgia Island should not have any culture until claimed or settled. That there should be an option for blank areas in culture map. Same with language map too. Now I am for having culture in non inhabited area if the area had population before, as culture stays for longer in artefacts and similar things.
 
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Even in the Amazon, usually, civilizations did not extend far inland beyond riverbeds. At that point in time, these areas might as well have been considered coastal, as they shared many of the same resources/needs as oceanic regions.

Additionally, all studies claiming the existence of large civilizations in the Amazon forest should be approached with caution. The only well-documented case is the Marajoara culture. Claims that would be comparable are like discovering Stonehenge and asserting that 10 million people lived in Britain in 3000 BCE with no documented history to back it up.
The Marajoara are not the only documented case.

The best documented case after them are the Kuikuro, of the Xingu valley. The most well-accepted estimate for their numbers is that they should have numbered at least 50k people. It's less than the estimates ranging from 100k to 500k in Marajó, but we're still finding settlements, and recent findings (mainly in the last decade) suggest that the Marajoarás and Kuiukuro were actually much closer to being the norm than to being some kind of rare exception in the Amazon.
The estimates for the whole Amazon will vary wildly though, as we do sorely lack any study on most settlements outside these two areas (the most notable exception being the Tapajó archeological site in Santarém, though that one also sorely lacks more study). Still, it is safe to say that the old estimates we had for the Amazon (which basically stated barely anybody lived there, and which are clearly the ones used by Paradox) are very outdated now.
 
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I expect you all to only come back after the new year (get some rest, you do deserve it), but I'll leave this here for when you return:
Could we have the population maps whenever possible?

I want to make a more complete review of the whole Amazon Basin (unlike the one I posted here after just half an hour of writing), but I need to first get some proper rest these holidays and having the actual populations by location should help me a lot once I get around to making such a review.
 
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So it's clear on the topographic map(s), that several terrain types have separate passable and impassable types; impassable mountains have a different shade than normal mountains, impassable hills have a different shade than normal hills, and there are also impassable wetlands separate from wetlands, while impassable flatlands and plateaus have the same topography, they are just simply not passable; and in addition, there are topographies like the salt pans, and some unnamed ones like what I assume are sand dunes in several places in Africa and Eurasia, whatever that wasteland East of the Nile has and also the seemingly placeholder one covering most of the Canadian arctic and several spots in the Great Basin.

Question: since there are "wasteland-only" topographies, what about wasteland-only vegetation types too? Things like "impassable forests" and "impassable jungles"; similarly to wasteland topographic varieties like salt pans, also purely for the visuals, so for example the impassable sections of the Amazon rainforest would be visually denser than the traversable/settleable sections of it.
 
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So let´s take a look at the language setup of the Tupian languages:
"Languages"CulturesLanguages/Cultures not shown on map
ArikemYjxaArikem,Cabixiana
TupariMakurapi, WajuruAkuntsu, Kepkiriwat, Mekéns
MondéAruaCinta Larga, Mondé/Salamai, Surui, Zoro
RamaramaxKaro, Purubura, Urumi
YurunaxJuruna, Maritsaua,Xipaya
MundurukuxMunduruku (!), Kuruaya
MawéMawéx
AwetíxAweti
Tupi-Guarani/ GuaraníAché, Ava, XetaKaywa
Tupi-Guaraní/GuarayúxGuarayu, Pauserna/Warazú, Siriono
Tupi-Guaraní/TupiPotiguara, Tupinamba, TupiniquimCocama,Omagua,
Tupi-Guarani/Tenetehara Awa, ApyawaAkwawa, Tenetehara
Tupi-Guarani/XinguAnambé, AwaeteAmanaye, Aura, Asurini
Tupi-Guaraní/KawahibApiaka, Kagwahiva, KawaiweteUru-Pa-In
Tupi-Guaraní/KamayuráxKamayura
Tupi-Guarani/ NorthernGuajáEmerillon, Tukunyapé, Caapor, Wayampi, Wayampipuku, Zoé

Many of the languages are not shown in the dev diary, because they are located in areas that have been designated as wastelands
 
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Hi, I am an actual speaker of Muisca, and I think regarding the Muisca, a better thing to call the religion would be "Bozic Ie". This means "law/path of Bozica" as "Chiminigagua" is just a bit of a strange thing to call it, like calling christianity "God" or Judaism "Hashem". The actual polities would be better off being called by their city state capitals, Namely Muyquyta (Bogotá) and Chunsua (Tunja). The titles of these kingdoms should not be zipa and zaque, which are postcolumbian terms, but rather "psihipqua" for Muyquyta and "hoa" for Chunsua. There should also be more independent polities, namely a theocratic Suamox (Sogamoso) and Tundama (Duitama) as a vassal of Chunsua, led by a leader likewise called a hoa. If there is a HoF system, the ruler of Suamox should be the HoF of the Bozic Ie faith.
Would like to add that with "titles" I meant the titles for kings and queens. Queens could be called "psihipquafuhucha" and "hoawuhura" (the latter being specifically in the Tunja dialect of Muisca).

Also, the dynasties should also not be called "Chicaquicha" and "Chunsa" but "Chicaquihicha" and "Chunsua". These are the correct spellings of these cities in the actual Muisca orthography. "quihicha", meaning "foot" or "base" has a glottal stop, thus you write it as "quihicha" and not "quicha". The same can be said for location and provibce, area, etc. names. "Chunsa" should be called "Chunsua" and "Chicaquicha" should be called "Chicaquihicha". Furthermore, Duitama should be called "Tundama". Could I also get a better images of locations in the area? I'd like to see what they are to see if they are actually correct.
 
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Although the LIDAR studies performed on Amazonian soil are fairly recent, being the 2022 "breakout headline" on the existence of complex and populous societies in the Amazon, this information does not come out of nowhere. Rather, it serves to corroborate what has long been known in sociological studies of Amazonian groups, such as the Cambebas, descendants of the Omágua chiefdom, who retain aristocratic lineages despite their return to collective use of land, something that would not make sense if the area had not hosted a hierarchichal society previously. The archaeological site in Santarém, connected to the Tapajós people, is also longer-existing evidence of these civilizations. I've found a paper from 2021 which purports to examine these societies, and even contains a map (unfortunately rather low-quality in digital format) of how these Amazonian fiefdoms were distributed. I hope these arguments help influence the expansion of locations, populations, and countries along the Amazon territory.


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From left to right, the Omáguas (or Cambebes), Machifaro-Aisuare, Yoriman, Paguana, and Tapajós. All of these fiefs have their social structures and modes of organizations described in the above article.
 
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Climate of the Argentine.png

I believe the location density of temperate Argentine land is super low. My calculations give me that the average size of the locations here is 15.5 kilometer squared, which I think is too high for a temperate, flat land with lots of clean water sources. It should be brought down to 8 kilometer squared, so about twice as many locations are needed in the green land.
 
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The fundamental misconception seems to be the notion that Portuguese colonization patterns were wholly affected by what Paradox would consider 'wasteland' terrain. Which is certainly true in the Amazon region, where the Portuguese nonetheless penetrated across the river basin and through corridors which are wastelands currently.

But elsewhere the issue is political and demographic. Portugal is a tiny country claiming land strategically by building forts at the mouth of rivers and such. It's small population claimed an area that is larger than today's contiguous USA. The Atlantic forest was not impenetrable or at least not nearly as impenetrable as the Amazon. But for a country that lacked the population to mass settle, villages and forts were built according to political incentives. Namely the discovery of gold, proximity towards Europe and the slow march of settlement itself.
 
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Hello, dear devs!

I think that Paraíba location should have a suitable natural harbour. Our colonisation is very unique in the sense that our capital and first city (today's João Pessoa, then Filipéia de Nossa Senhora das Neves) was colonised from the river Paraíba, not from the coast. To this day, one of the best ports in the Northeast is situated on the Paraíba river estuary at Cabedelo, where the river widens and has ample space for ships of all sizes.

Filipéia was first colonised in 1585, with the construction of the Fort of Santa Catarina in today's Cabedelo at the year of 1589. There were plans since Pedro II's reign to build a commercial harbour at Cabedelo, which denotes the suitability before modern harbour-building techniques.

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