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Tinto Maps #22 - 11th of October 2024 - Mongolia, Manchuria and Eastern Siberia

Hello and welcome another week to the amazing world of Tinto Maps. This week we are covering a very wide area, as we will take a look at Mongolia, Manchuria and all Eastern Siberia. So, without much further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Here, clearly, the Yuán Dynasty of China controls much of the territory, while all of the Siberian expanses are “open” to colonization. Considering Manchuria, the Jurchen tribes posed a tricky question, as some of them were more settled and Chinese-influenced while others were more nomadic and pastoralist, and some were in between. Thus, we decided to represent the more settled tribes that would later confederate into the Manchu as separate countries vassals of Yuán, while there is also Jurchen population inside the borders of Yuán itself and the most nomadic of them represented as Society of Pops.

Societies of Pops
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And speaking of that, most of them are obviously concentrated in Manchuria and around the borders of the countries and coasts, while the more inhospitable places further into Siberia and Kamchatka are more sparsely populated and thus less organized.

Dynasties
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Nothing that wasn’t expected here, Borjigin dynasty keeps dominating another week. Concerning the Jurchen, currently none of them have scripted dynasties assigned and are generated instead.

Locations
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Provinces
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Areas
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Terrain
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The drier parts of the Gobi Desert in the Mongolian Plateau give way to the steppes and grasslands of Manchuria, while further into Siberia it gets dominated by mountains, hills, forests, and as one would expect from Siberia, cold.

Development
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Not much development in these parts either, and as I mentioned in last week’s Tinto Maps, the sudden change in development when entering China will have to be reviewed, as it’s currently too strong.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Quite a varied cultural landscape, as these areas are populated by many different peoples, sometimes expanding through a wide area while others are more localized. On the other hand, the Mongolian Plateau is very much dominated by Mongolian culture.

Religions
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Very diverse religion distribution too, with Tengri, Shamanism, and local variations of it with Tungustic Shamanism (brown), Yukaghir Shamanism (light blue) and Chukchee Shamanism (purple). I have to say that we are currently going through a review of all the religions of the world defined as either “Animism” or “Shamanism”, so it is possible that there are some changes in this distribution in the future.

Raw Materials
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Very marked distribution of resources, with Mongolia and Manchuria rich in livestock and horses (as one would expect from the horse lords) while the forests of Siberia are full of fur and wild game and the northern coasts are a big source of ivory (from the world-famous arctic elephant herds, of course). However, the mountainous areas also include precious metals like gold and silver, so their colonization may thus prove quite beneficial. Another thing of note is that fish can be found abundantly not only along the coasts but also along the major rivers crossing Siberia.

Markets
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First of all, we have reverted back to the previous way of visualizing markets, as it was clear that the change we did to it was not in the good direction. We will keep testing and trying things, so this will probably not be the final view of it, but for now we reverted back to this version as we think it would be clearer to present. Having said that, these are areas with not much market presence, with the markets of Karakorum and Ilan Hala being the main ones, and the Chinese markets encroaching on the southern parts. Siberia doesn’t have any market of its own, so all of it has currently no access.

Population
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The only countries we have population to show here are the Jurchen ones, with the mighty Yuán ever encroaching on them. Concerning the populations of the locations, one thing I have to mention is that you will see many of them with the value of 150, that is the general default value that we used for the less populated areas of all eastern Siberia, where population estimates of the period don’t allow for much fine tuning. It is probably something that we will adjust.

And that is it for this week. Next week, after having been teasing it and slithering around its edges for a while now, it will be finally time to face the dragon, as we will showcase the entirety of China. Hope to see you all there, and as always very open (and grateful) to all your feedback.
 
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Would it be better to represent Mongolians as Khalkha, as other Mongol cultures are depicted (Oirat, Buryat, Tumed, etc.)?
The issue is that the Chahars for example are included in the Mongol culture, and it doesn't make any sense to call them Halh.

Personally I would prefer for the Mongols to continue being named that, and for the Tumed to be absorbed into them. That would be the ideal setup, because you can read about the Eastern Mongols being contrasted with the Oirats during the early modern period.
 
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The issue is that the Chahars for example are included in the Mongol culture, and it doesn't make any sense to call them Halh.

Personally I would prefer for the Mongols to continue being named that, and for the Tumed to be absorbed into them. That would be the ideal setup, because you can read about the Eastern Mongols being contrasted with the Oirats during the early modern period.
Yeah, having Tumed but not Chakhar does feel a bit weird. It might be trying to represent the Right Wing Tumens (Ordos, Tümed and Yöngshiyebü) and Left Wing Tumens (Chakhar, Khalkha and Uriankhai) of Dayan Khan and the Northern Yuan period? Which could be a valid way to split it, if it had another name
 
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Yeah, having Tumed but not Chakhar does feel a bit weird. It might be trying to represent the Right Wing Tumens (Ordos, Tümed and Yöngshiyebü) and Left Wing Tumens (Chakhar, Khalkha and Uriankhai) of Dayan Khan and the Northern Yuan period? Which could be a valid way to split it, if it had another name
I guess personally I would rather represent them as political units that can show up by event? But in order for that to work properly the game would need to be good at representing the political structure of steppe empires and I'm not confident about that especially if eu4 is anything to go by.
 
I guess personally I would rather represent them as political units that can show up by event? But in order for that to work properly the game would need to be good at representing the political structure of steppe empires and I'm not confident about that especially if eu4 is anything to go by.
Ideally I'd like something similar to SOPs for each of them, but I don't know how feasible or fun that would actually be lol
 
Mongolian names

I'm sure that you guys probably already have a name list for them, but here are a couple things that could help fill it out:




I also want to note that it was very very uncommon for someone to share a name with a previous khan, especially a powerful one, so there wouldn't be a ruler like "Temujin II" or "Kublai II". Unlike in western countries, it was seen as extremely bad luck because it would attract evil spirits or put too much pressure on the child's soul - in fact it was even common to name children negative things like "Jochi" (guest) or "Nergui" (no name) to protect them.
 
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There is a possibility that the Uilta resided in the central eastern part of Sakhalin.
I am currently making a huge map of the indigenous semi-settled and nomadic settlements of Sakhalin. I try not only to indicate the location of the minorities on it, but also to indicate all the historical names of the villages. When I started, I thought there would be a little more than a hundred villages. But it turned out that there are about 3,000 settlements on the island, of which about 500 have their own historical names. Among them there are 9 settlements (trading posts) belonging to China; 4 settlements belonging to the Ulchi; 1 settlement belonging to the Nanai. I've done more than half the work. During the New Year holidays, I want to finish and post along with an additional short description, which I have not yet compiled.

Now I have prepared a small cultural map for Sakhalin (55 locations), Hokkaido (60 locations), the Kuril Islands (11 locations) and the north of Honshu, because I have a source for him about the location of the Ainu (Nanbu) in the 14th century. In addition, the Ulchi have an oral legend about distant islands and it intersects with one Wikipedia article about that region, but I'll tell you about it when I finish the map.

Cultures (55).png
 
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I am currently making a huge map of the indigenous semi-settled and nomadic settlements of Sakhalin. I try not only to indicate the location of the minorities on it, but also to indicate all the historical names of the villages. When I started, I thought there would be a little more than a hundred villages. But it turned out that there are about 3,000 settlements on the island, of which about 500 have their own historical names. Among them there are 9 settlements (trading posts) belonging to China; 4 settlements belonging to the Ulchi; 1 settlement belonging to the Nanai. I've done more than half the work. During the New Year holidays, I want to finish and post along with an additional short description, which I have not yet compiled.

Now I have prepared a small cultural map for Sakhalin (55 locations), Hokkaido (60 locations), the Kuril Islands (11 locations) and the north of Honshu, because I have a source for him about the location of the Ainu (Nanbu) in the 14th century. In addition, the Ulchi have an oral legend about distant islands and it intersects with one Wikipedia article about that region, but I'll tell you about it when I finish the map.

View attachment 1231135
Wow, so nice of you.
 
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The circled tribes should have a considerable Nestorian population.
Cities recorded Hui Muslim settlement in the Yuan Dynasty, according to Yang (2003)
  1. Karakorum
  2. Beijing - 2953 households in 1264
  3. Shangdu
  4. Tiande (in Bayannur), Qianmalin (in Wanquan), Hongzhou, Xuande
  5. Pingyang & Taiyuan (in Shanxi)
  6. Dongping Fu Lu (in Shandong)
  7. Zhending (in Beizhili)
  8. Bianliang - 186 households in 1289
  9. Jianghuai Region
  10. Yangzhou
  11. Xi'an
  12. Hanzhong
  13. Etzina
  14. Shazhou
  15. Ganzhou
  16. Liangzhou
  17. Xining
  18. Sichuan
  19. Hangzhou - 40k of 850k households in 1321
  20. Nanjing - 176 households
  21. Zhenjiang - 59 households, 310 men
  22. Ningbo - 21 households
  23. Quanzhou - notably the Shia Persian population
  24. Guangzhou
  25. Jianchang
  26. Kunming - Muslim majority (susceptible)
  27. Dali
  28. Xichang

From Jiang (1982)
On Nestorian (and Catholicism)
Nestorians in China Proper went extinct in the Huichang persecution of Buddhism in 845. It was recorded that 2,000 - 3,000 Nestorian priests were forced to abandon their religion. In the early 9th Century, the Patriarch Timothy reported that most Nestorians went to India. In 987, Najran from Bagdad reported only one Nestorian during his visit to China.

However, four tribes of Mongols - Kerait, Naiman, Merkits, and Ongut - were converted to Nestorianism. Sorhahtani, the mother of Kublai Khan, was a Nestorian Christian. Güyük Khan's mother and Hulegu Khan's wife were also Nestorians from the Tribe of Kerait. Kerait was converted to Nestorianism by the 12th Century. Toghrul of Keraits was also believed to be a prototype of Prester John.

Apart from Mongols, Uygurs were the second largest group following Nestorianism. Bar Sawma and his father, Siban, were sent to Beijing for a mission in the early 13th Century. Markos from Huoshan, Shanxi Province, became a discipline of Bar Sawma and later became a father. In 1278, they made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and visited the Church in Baghdad, where Markos was appointed the metropolitan bishop of Kitai in Beijing in 1280.

Mar Sargis, a Nestorian doctor from Samarkand, was appointed Darughachi of Zhenjiang in 1278. He built seven Nestorian churches in Jiangzhe Province: four in Zhenjiang, two in Dantu, and one in Hangzhou. The Nestorian Church established three provinces in Yuan Dynasty China, including Ong (Ongut Mongols), Tangut, and Kitai province. Kitai province claimed over 30k followers.

In 1289, John of Montercorrino was sent as a papal ambassador to China. He began the mission in 1294 and established the first Catholic church in 1303. In his letter of 1305, he claimed over 6,000 people were converted to Catholicism. Andrew of Perugia mentioned that John converted the Buddhists and Nestorian Alans from Eastern Europe. Andrew established another church in Quanzhou. The total number of followers in Beijing and Quanzhou may amount to about 30k, mostly non-Chinese.

On Jewish
Matteo Ricci discovered Kaifeng Jews in the early 17th Century. Kaifeng Jews knew only "Israel" but not "Jews," and they did not know Jesus Christ at all. They mention a larger Jewish community in Hangzhou, confirmed by medieval travels such as Marco Polo, Ibn Battuta, and the Catholic father P.M. Cibot. Other cities recorded Jewish communities included Ningbo, Ningxia, Yangzhou, Nanjing, Beijing, Quanzho
 
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View attachment 1232744
The circled tribes should have a considerable Nestorian population.
I also spoke about this topic in this post, the Keraits and Naimans had migrated into western Mongolia around the Altai mountains, and it seems like it might have only been their ruling class or a very small number who were converted since the religion completely vanished after the church of Karakorum was destroyed.
 
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View attachment 1197870
The drier parts of the Gobi Desert in the Mongolian Plateau give way to the steppes and grasslands of Manchuria, while further into Siberia it gets dominated by mountains, hills, forests, and as one would expect from Siberia, cold.
PMbkoqBVPo4f7Q7HwvPIefIY4C36HhM2a589qfV-JLk.png

You should tweak the vegetation cover of Northeastern Siberia a bit.
Specifically, Kamchatka's valleys should have more woods and forests, while the mountains of the Northeast (which are now forested) should be sparsely vegetated.
 
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I think Warka should not be there, and, furthermore, Warka actually refers to more than one tribe in the lower Tumen River Basin. According to Dong (2003)'s research based on Korean texts, the Warka was divided into five tribes of different origins:
  1. Upper Tumen Tribe - around Hoeryong - Odori
  2. Middle Tumen Tribe - around Chongsong - Hurga
  3. Lower Tumen Tribe - around Kyongwon - Hurga and "strict" Jurchen
  4. Inner Tumen Tribe - under Korean Yukjin - "strict" Jurchen
  5. Anchukula Tribe, West to the Tumen River - around Helong City - Hurga
I use the word "strict" to distinguish Jurchen of Jin descent from other tribes. From the Jin Dynasty to the early Ming Dynasty, both Hurga and Odori were considered "Wild Jurchen" or "Yeren Jurchen" because they were very backward and subjected to the "strict" Jurchen. Claiming themselves as the "real" Jurchen, Jurchens of Jin descent looked down to "wild" Jurchens, subjectized these tribes, and did not view those subjects as Jurchen.

In addition to the "strict" Jurchens native in the lower Tumen River Basin and within Korean territory, most Warka were from the Odori and Hurga, sharing the same bloodline with Jianzhou Jurchen. Before the migration of Odoli and Hurga, the region south of the Changbai Mountains in the Korean Peninsula should have been a more civilized Jurchen under Yuan governance.
 
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Topograpy Review

A lot of suggestions!
  • I didn't bother with suggesting terrain of the wastelands, but mountains is only appropriate for the Verkhoyansk and Cherskiy ranges
    • Suggested a single corridor tweak in the Yandin-Indigirka Areas
  • This region lacks a lot of topographic granularity, especially in the Siberian/Far-Eastern "pockets" and their corridors.
  • There were no wetlands indicated outside of Manchuria, so LOTS of wetlands have been suggested everywhere
    • also Manchuria's Qihiqar region was expanded upon
  • The Locations of central Siberia was too hilly. Readjusted a lot to Flatlands and plateaus.
    • (A lot of locations are júst below 500 metres, but I bumped them up to plateau as it has very plateau-like characteristics)

ERRATUM:
- Streamlet pointed out Karakorum should for historical significance perhaps NOT be mountains, but remain hills, as it is positioned on the edge, and the main road goes around the mountain massif.

Current Tinto versionSuggested Changes'Changelog' of suggestions
1_TopoCurrent.png
2_TopoSuggested.png
3_Changelog.png

Terrain Ruggedness Index
(annoying cut-off due to projection error, sorry)
Digital Elevation - Exaggerated colorsSuggested corridor tweak to red instead of purple.
I have no clue on the historical accuracy though!
4_DEM-TRI.png
4_DEM-Colorful.png
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Abundance of Peat in area% (PeatML)
(annoying cut-off due to projection error, sorry)
Type of wetlands (GLWD)
(annoying cut-off due to projection error, sorry)
Water depth of 100-year event floods.
(annoying cut-off due to projection error, sorry)
5_Wetlands-PeatML.png
5_Wetlands-GLWD.png
5_Wetlands-Floods.png
 
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Topograpy Review

A lot of suggestions!
  • I didn't bother with suggesting terrain of the wastelands, but mountains is only appropriate for the Verkhoyansk and Cherskiy ranges
    • Suggested a single corridor tweak in the Yandin-Indigirka Areas
  • This region lacks a lot of topographic granularity, especially in the Siberian/Far-Eastern "pockets" and their corridors.
  • There were no wetlands indicated outside of Manchuria, so LOTS of wetlands have been suggested everywhere
    • also Manchuria's Qihiqar region was expanded upon
  • The Locations of central Siberia was too hilly. Readjusted a lot to Flatlands and plateaus.
    • (A lot of locations are júst below 500 metres, but I bumped them up to plateau as it has very plateau-like characteristics)

Current Tinto versionSuggested Changes'Changelog' of suggestions
View attachment 1236345View attachment 1236346View attachment 1236347

Terrain Ruggedness Index
(annoying cut-off due to projection error, sorry)
Digital Elevation - Exaggerated colorsSuggested corridor tweak to red instead of purple.
I have no clue on the historical accuracy though!
View attachment 1236348View attachment 1236354View attachment 1236358

Abundance of Peat in area% (PeatML)
(annoying cut-off due to projection error, sorry)
Type of wetlands (GLWD)
(annoying cut-off due to projection error, sorry)
Water depth of 100-year event floods.
(annoying cut-off due to projection error, sorry)
View attachment 1236360View attachment 1236361View attachment 1236362
Out of curiosity do you think the terrain around the main settlement should play a role in the final product too? For example Karakorum looks like this irl (a very flat expanse with small hills in the distance) but becomes mountainous when you take the average of the whole location
 
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Out of curiosity do you think the terrain around the main settlement should play a role in the final product too? For example Karakorum looks like this irl (a very flat expanse with small hills in the distance) but becomes mountainous when you take the average of the whole location
I always perform these analyses independently from how significant historical cities were/became, and determine the 'average' topography for each location.
Way back they requested that indeed the 'average' should dictate what the whole location should be.

This means a lot is determined how the location is drawn in on the map. You can see that Karakorum proper is nestled in the top-right corner of the enitre, otherwise hilly/mountainous location.

That said, I agree that Karakorum should get some special treatment perhaps, due to the historical significance. But anything less than hills should be a big no-no from me.

I adjusted my main post with this discussion point, thanks!
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edit: added a 3d-view (with vertical exaggeration)
1735315709414.png
 
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Эвенки.png

What do you think about dividing the Evenks into groups?

The continental Nivkhs were vassals of the Yuan and were called Jilemi, the Udege people were also vassals, but they had several tribes (including the Orochi), I don't know which ones yet. The Nanai and Ulchi were engaged in robbery, probably because they did not have consolidated power. I have almost finished dividing the Lugui and Kuvei confederacy into separate tribes. I have some tentative names for them, but I don't know which tribe to refer to yet. Lugui is diplomatically under Yuan's rule, his trading posts are located there, but in fact the tribes are independent. In the game, it can be imagined as an international organization where the Yuan is the leader and the other tribes are the participants. The Ainu in Kamchatka have become larger because there is a Kuri clan there, which appeared in the late 13th or early 14th century and had 7 settlements, 3 of which have historical names, in the best years the Kuri had a population of 2,000 to 3,000 people. I'll talk about this in a bit more detail later. In the 13th century, the coastal population of Sakhalin consisted of at least 22,025 people. However, I do not yet have calculation formulas for those who lived in the interior of the island.
I'm sorry if I wrote some terms incorrectly in English. The translation from Chinese may be very different for your language. This is in case you are trying to find information for your interest.
 
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I have looked up Russian wiki and I suggest the following changes to South Kamchatka.

Achava -> Avacha
Oktyabr'skii -> Bol'sheretsk (the first name is a XX century settlement, the second is a XVIII century settlement)
Kirovskiy (soviet name) - delete (honestly, it was set up in early 1900s and is defunct by now)
Krutogorovskiy -> Krutogorovo (an earlier, more readable name with the same meaning)
Malka and Milkovo - swap places.
 
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A few more suggestions for eastern/northern Magadan area.

Glukhariniy -> Oroyok (the former is a soviet gold mining camp; the latter is a local river and defunct hamlet)
Iagodnoie -> Yagodnoye (spelling; it's a soviet place anyway)
Razvedchik -> Debin (razvedchik means prospector in this case; Debin is a local river name meaning "rust")
Talaya -> Tala (Russian name is very similar to local name)
Kushka -> Tavatum or Tavatama (Gizhiga is the modern-day Kushka, but Gizhiga was an important settlement while it lasted)
Yamks -> Yamsk (typo)
 
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