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So, I got some doubts/need of validation about the Madrid and San Ildefonso treaty lines. Don't know which thread is the best one, this, FleetingRain's one or the tinto maps, but I chose this one. I made proposed lines for the treaties and I wanted to share to validate my choices.
I tried to read the treaties, but it was hard to understand, so I took the description of Braziler as a base.
I refer here to the souther end of the frontier, today in the territory of Rio Grande do Sul.
The treaties worked with the river and watersheds, so as a base I took this map from the Compania de Pesquisa de Recursos Minerais dated of 2005. I then separated the basis I consider important. Ibicui, Jacuí, Negro, Camaquã, Piratini and Jaguarão rivers.
View attachment 1242983
The situation. Watersheds in black, today Piratini and Ibicuí rivers in orange. Ibicuí-mirim and the Santa Maria rivers in pink.
1) Let's start with the treaty of Madrid. It follows the watershed up to the Ibicuí source. The watershed in question is Black and Ibicuí river to the west and Jaguarão, Camaquã and Jacuí rivers to the east of the line. The problem: today the Ibicui is consider the junction of the Ibicuí-mirim and the Santa Maria rivers (point A) and it does not have a proper source. There are many possible sources to follows.
If we follow the Ibicuí-mirim or one of it's tributaries, the source is northeast of point A. Point B is the source of the Ibicuí-mirim, for exemple. This is actually somewhat similar to the drawing of the Mapa Das Cortes that was the official map of the treatyof Madrid(red line in the map). I must mention that this map is awful in this region, so although official, it's not a good geographical source.
If we follow the Santa Maria river, or it's main tributary, the Ibicuí da Armada river, we end up with the river source way to the south. The Santa Maria river source is point C. Ibicuí da Armada river has many tributaries and it's sources are to the west of point C. This is more similar with the map present in the Wikipedia page.
The difference is rather big, so which one to consider? My initial guess was using the Santa Maria river source (C).
2) Now, the San Ildefonso treaty, which was even more confusingly written, but is in accordance to the interpretation of Braziler it is easier to draw. It follows the Mirin lake, then the São Gonzalo channel and up the Piratini river to it's source. Question: which source? It has numerous tributaries. Point D is in the source in the map I took as a base. Other possible sources, arroio basílio and it's tributaries, are a little to the west of point D.
3) Also in the San Ildefonso treaty, after the source of the Piratini river, it follows the watershed between the Jacuí and Uruguay basins up to the source of Garita river. However, the Piratini basin does not touch neither the Jacuí or Uruguay basins, as it is comprised between the Camaquã and Jaguarão(Camaquã goes to the Patos lagoon and Jaguarão to the Mirim lake). To solve this, I just followed the watershed of this basis up until I reached the Uruguay basin.
I've posted my draw of treaty lines, after the text:
It's a cropped section of full map, and like the same line of your map to me.
I have given up on representing them in my proposal map because they create some difficulties in the balanced design (in relation to size) of the locations. Furthermore, these lines were never effectively established as a border. But depending on the developers' design philosophy, they can be easily implemented.
By no means belittling your work, but theoretically (not always applied in common denominations) a river is named from its mouth (whether in another river, lake or sea) to its furthest source.
I've posted my draw of treaty lines, after the text: View attachment 1243305
It's a cropped section of full map, and like the same line of your map to me.
I have given up on representing them in my proposal map because they create some difficulties in the balanced design (in relation to size) of the locations. Furthermore, these lines were never effectively established as a border. But depending on the developers' design philosophy, they can be easily implemented.
By no means belittling your work, but theoretically (not always applied in common denominations) a river is named from its mouth (whether in another river, lake or sea) to its furthest source.
Thanks. I had the impression that you sent this map, but I was unable to find it again. Sorry for the inconvenience.
About the fact that they were never implemented, yes indeed, but I think they are more connected to the period than today's municipalities borders. So in the (vague) preposition I'm working, I'm giving this borders priority over municipalities. Haven't found problems in balancing the size, but normally I'm not worrying about the size. (Ok, I actually was bothered by the thin land between both treaties in the middle of RS, north of Bagé, but I just defined it as a province and moved on).
Again, thanks about the river-naming thing. I feel obliged to, however, question if this was already a standard practice in the 1750s (quite possibly yes, but I don't know) and also by this definition I think that the source of the Piratini river might be another one(a little to the west), but I don't think I care and the Secretaria do Meio Ambiente e Infraestrutura of the state agrees with you.
Based on the oldest form of the name, supported by oral tradition, it is almost certain that the beginning of the name has the meaning "river of baskets" as for nhonha, it is not clear, in any case, it constitutes a characteristic, due to the position at the end of the word.
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Itaobim
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Itá-oby
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Bocaiúva
Jequitaí
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Mokaîe'yba
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Jaíba
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Ya'yba
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Guaiacuí
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Gûaîaku'y
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Itarantim
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Itá-ran-tĩ
Novamente, não encontrei fontes. A conversa é "uma pedra que parece um bico". Você pode encontrar algumas fontes que dizem que significa pedra da coroa ou pedra de três pontas, mas nenhuma delas faz sentido etimologicamente.
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Brasília de Minas
Santana de Contendas
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Ubá'y
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Este local é chamado Utuí no mapa. Está errado, o nome no mapa deveria ser Ubaí, que é o nome tupi. O nome colonial português deveria ser. Contendas.
Nanuque
Santa Clara do Mucuri
Aimorés
Mukury
One of possible etymology
Eu cometi um erro estúpido com os nomes antigos. A cidade chamada Águas Formosas deveria ser Santa Clara do Mucuri. A localidade mais ao sul, erroneamente chamada de Santa Clara do Mucuri, deveria ser chamada de Natividade (da Barra) com o nome tupi de Ytu-etá.
O erro ocorreu porque em períodos diferentes, ambas eram chamadas de Aimorés (um nome do povo Krenak)
Aimorés
Natividade da Barra do Manhuaçú
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Ytu-etá
Este nome indígena é de uma cidade vizinha, pois Manhuaçu era usado para outro lugar, mais antigo, com algum nome indígena.
Theoretically, the same name as Santana de Parnaíba in São Paulo, as well as Parnaíba in Piauí. The official etymology of Parnaíba completely violates Tupi grammar, but by deduction it is concluded that it is paranã (caudalous river) and aíb-a (bad). Paranã was corrupted into parna and perna in some words and replaced by paraná in the dialects of the colonial era.
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Jataí
Paraíso
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Îate'i
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Santa Rita do Araguaia
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Arawa'i
Most probable etymology.
This city is today split between Goiás where is called Santa Rita do Araguaia and Mato Grosso, where is called Alto Araguia.
Porangatu
Descoberto
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Porang-katu
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Niquelândia
São José do Tocantins
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Tukana-tĩ
The same name of the nothern state.
Nowdays name's means nickel-land. I wouldn't use it.
Gurupi
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Ko'y-rupi
Tradition says that it means river of the countryside. The reconstruction I did means river (which passes) through the countryside.
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Guaraí
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Gûará-ĩ
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Some names inside are artificial and grammatically wrong creations. The Unaí location was initially called Rio Preto (Black River) and was later renamed. In Tupi black is Úna and river is Y, which leads us to believe that the native name would mean Rio Preto (Úna'y), however the word order is wrong, it should be Y'úna. Alternatively, a relevant Tupi specialist (Eduardo Navarro) says that it means sloths (Yna'y). Things like it happen in many other names.
As a paraense, it's really interesting to see a good map for Pará! I'm really interested in how to portray the rich Marajoara culture, especially considering that it was most likely a network of tesos, rather than an united polity. Maybe several city-states? Or just one tag that would encompass the entire civilization?
As a paraense, it's really interesting to see a good map for Pará! I'm really interested in how to protray the rich Marajoara culture, especially considering that it was most likely a network of tesos, rather than an united polity. Maybe several city-states? Or just one tag that would encompass the entire civilization?
Thanks.
I think that it should to be a SoP, because we don't know name, characteristics and size of every of six (?) cities, same if someone was independent. As well it would break the size of locations.
Thanks.
I think that it should to be a SoP, because we don't know name, characteristics and size of every of six (?) cities, same if someone was independent. As well it would break the size of locations.
I think it's particularly hard to argue in favor of having the Marajoara being represented as a SoP when we do have other tags for civilizations that face the same issues (take Cahokia, for example).
Granted, Paradox would have to basically randomize a lot of stuff, but I do strongly believe that at least the eastern Marajoara fit the criteria presented by Paradox regarding what nations should constitute tags in EUV.
I personally would go as far as to also add at the very least Santarém and the Kuikuro as tags, as well as turn most, if not all, of the Tupi-Guarani into SoPs.
Are you asking about any specific color, or about the map itself? Because without knowing what this map is actually about, I have no idea what the colors would be representing.
Well, the map represents indigenous people before colonization messed everything up. Orange: Tupi-Guarani, Yellow: Kariri, Blue: Tarairiú, Red: Xucuru, Lime Green: Xocó, Beige: Pankararu, Lilac: Tremembé, Sky Blue: Fulniô, Dark Green: Jê, White: Isolated or lost. I just wanted to know if anyone knew about it to confirm my proposal.
Regarding straight lines, they have been extinct (in Mato Grosso) or are irrelevant, as they are in impassable lands (in Pará).
It was a necessity for the time. The kings of Portugal had the ambition of carving out an 'island' of Brazil in South America by laying its borders throughout river barriers, starting from the Plata river and going into the Amazon, but the depths of the rainforest were, of course, almost impossible to map, much less claim correctly in line with the geographic objectives of Lisbon and Madrid in the region.
So while you end up with neat geographical borders in 90% of Brazil, when you get to that deep Acre section, you suddenly have a straight line, because explorers and mappers didn't feel like "dying by jungle", the lazy bastards.
View attachment path512.png
The proposal like this currently. There is room for some improvements and the need to add locations in Rondônia (and possibly in Mato Grosso). It has 540 locations, it will probably end up with around 550, while Tinto's map has around 320. For the areas that had already been done, I added 2 locations and removed 9 locations, as for Pará, I added 3 locations, although I think Marajó needs some adjustments to better represent the natives (probably just a redesign).
View attachment 1255958
The proposal like this currently. There is room for some improvements and the need to add locations in Rondônia (and possibly in Mato Grosso). It has 540 locations, it will probably end up with around 550, while Tinto's map has around 320. For the areas that had already been done, I added 2 locations and removed 9 locations, as for Pará, I added 3 locations, although I think Marajó needs some adjustments to better represent the natives (probably just a redesign).
Sincerely, I'd be truly happy if we were to get something even close to this in the game! And even if you still plan on adding more to the map, do remember to post it on the main South America Tinto Maps thread! I believe devs are prone to check on it much more regularly than on this thread!
View attachment 1255958
The proposal like this currently. There is room for some improvements and the need to add locations in Rondônia (and possibly in Mato Grosso). It has 540 locations, it will probably end up with around 550, while Tinto's map has around 320. For the areas that had already been done, I added 2 locations and removed 9 locations, as for Pará, I added 3 locations, although I think Marajó needs some adjustments to better represent the natives (probably just a redesign).
View attachment 1255958
The proposal like this currently. There is room for some improvements and the need to add locations in Rondônia (and possibly in Mato Grosso). It has 540 locations, it will probably end up with around 550, while Tinto's map has around 320. For the areas that had already been done, I added 2 locations and removed 9 locations, as for Pará, I added 3 locations, although I think Marajó needs some adjustments to better represent the natives (probably just a redesign).
Sincerely, I'd be truly happy if we were to get something even close to this in the game! And even if you still plan on adding more to the map, do remember to post it on the main South America Tinto Maps thread! I believe devs are prone to check on it much more regularly than on this thread!
There is an older version of the map there. I don't want to post every update so as not to turn it into a Balkan thread. I'm trying to make a viable map. Maybe I finish it next week.
Yes. I've collected a bunch of Tupi names for almost every country (and learned a bit of the language). There will be a handful of names from other languages (as Kaigang), but I don't think we'll find any Marajoara names.
View attachment 1255958
The proposal like this currently. There is room for some improvements and the need to add locations in Rondônia (and possibly in Mato Grosso). It has 540 locations, it will probably end up with around 550, while Tinto's map has around 320. For the areas that had already been done, I added 2 locations and removed 9 locations, as for Pará, I added 3 locations, although I think Marajó needs some adjustments to better represent the natives (probably just a redesign).
That's amazing work.
My only immediate suggestion is to consider giving a small ammount more of area density in the Xingu region (one or two more areas), as well as to have it connected to the Amazon. This should give room for a better gameplay experience revolving around the Amazon region as a whole, and also give better representativity to it's natives.
EDIT: whenever I have time for it, I'll also do what I did with the Paradox map and work on a biomes suggestion based on this map. I'll probably will need some time to figure out how to work on a more adequate editing tool.
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