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we have plenty discussion of magehaven having rules, importance of social and political rules and prestige between the Godir of magehaven, that's what the Oasis mission is about, thats what covenant v shadai is about, thats what the missions to find Meandor so he can resume his position of authority is about.
 
we have plenty discussion of magehaven having rules, importance of social and political rules and prestige between the Godir of magehaven, that's what the Oasis mission is about, thats what covenant v shadai is about, thats what the missions to find Meandor so he can resume his position of authority is about.
There is just no real authority. Meandor seems to be a well respected godir. Thats it. There are alliances like the shadrai. But we also saw how hard it is to herd that bag of cats for lythil.

Meandor is the one who tries to restore order with oasis. But as we can see in the intro to arcalot, there is no real organization among godir. At best if meandor wants to speak, people are willing to listen out of respect. If they do as he wants or not is another question.

Also, the mission about meandor is about sundren being worried about her uncle. Lythil wanted him out of the picture for a bit, but arachne overdid it with her spell on him. Part of the reason for the mission is probably also to save the elvenworld before its too late.
 
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... thats what authority is

Respect, follow these rules, agree to these decisions we have made or be ostracised and disrespected, alliances as factions pushing an agenda and philosophy or what actions are acceptable or not, get you respect, disrespect or exclusion for doing

that's what authority and politics are. everywhere. respect and consequence, the same reasons they listen to Meandor or fakeLythil are the same reason you in the real world listen to the policemen or forum moderators. If you do as they want or not is another question.
 
... thats what authority is

Respect, follow these rules, agree to these decisions we have made or be ostracised and disrespected, alliances as factions pushing an agenda and philosophy or what actions are acceptable or not, get you respect, disrespect or exclusion for doing

that's what authority and politics are. everywhere. respect and consequence, the same reasons they listen to Meandor or fakeLythil are the same reason you in the real world listen to the policemen or forum moderators. If you do as they want or not is another question.

Problem is, there is 0 indication he has any meaningfull power over the other godir. There is no way stopping someone from meeting others in magehaven. The ancient spell prevents any harm.

The best you can do there is to denounce them among your friends. You could war them on sight in other realms, but thats still no authority over them. And very far from a government as claimed earlier.

Though, i think we talk about different kinds of authority here. What i mean with it, meandor is no judge who can sentence you to something, no police who can forcefully remove you, no godir president to declare a new law.

He can still be an authority figure in the sense of a wise old man who gives good advice and at least some are going to follow it.
 
no violence, not no harm. They can still bully, exclude, etc. social exclusion is the most effective and longest history means of social control and enforcement of rules. magehaven is a society, just because they're all immortal gods, doesn't make them not also just people and the story mission intros explicitly frame Meandor as a respected and powerful authority in that society with the power to settle minor disputes and tell others what to do. You don't need to be able to forcible remove or imprison to do that, shun, command or compel is enough and we see examples of all that in both meandor and the politics of the factions.
 
no violence, not no harm. They can still bully, exclude, etc. social exclusion is the most effective and longest history means of social control and enforcement of rules. magehaven is a society, just because they're all immortal gods, doesn't make them not also just people and the story mission intros explicitly frame Meandor as a respected and powerful authority in that society with the power to settle minor disputes and tell others what to do. You don't need to be able to forcible remove or imprison to do that, shun, command or compel is enough and we see examples of all that in both meandor and the politics of the factions.

I dont think society fits. Its the gathering hub for godir. All that connects them is godirhood. If the social circle of meandors exludes you, an opposing circle will welcome you in with open arms.

The settling minor dispute thing can also be way closer too "hey meandor. Karissa and i have a problem. We both want X, can you help us settle it?". Where he then can try to suggest compromises or a challenge so one of them is the winner and gets what they want.
 
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View attachment 1251386
Both the game and a developer say that it's a day. Also, two of the minor cosmic happenings are conjunctions of two affinity-related planets, which doesn't seem like it would last for long.

No, but differently-sized cities have different designations, going from a village to a town, then to a city, and finally to a metropolis at 16 population, not something that can be grown in less than a 100 days through natural means.

If they exist, where are they on the map? The name of the smallest settlement is already a village, and various province improvements can only really be called hamlets if they are farms, based on their combat map. Everything else is wilderness. Unlike Planetfall of AoW3 there aren't even camps that could be collected to add population. The only other places with your people are free cities of your race.

None of your points also acknowledge Nimue's part in the Shad'rai plan for Grexolis, which proves that it should be possible to ferry entire armies across the Astral Sea.

You still don't seem to understand that as long as there is no place in the Astral Sea where time flows backwards, of which we have no indication (all reports of variety in flow of time are consistent with regular time dilation), there is no such thing as breaking causality. The same is true for the real world under the speed of light. No matter how fast you move, as long as you don't go faster than light (and therefore backwards in time), you can't arrive at the same point earlier than you left.

Magehaven appears to be very much anarchic in the sense that there is, in fact, no true government. From what we've seen everything is discussed and decided on open forums where everyone is very much equal. The only person with any kind of authority is Meandor on account of finding and founding Magehaven, and that is an authority based purely on respect, not coercion. The only rule of Magehaven is magically enforced non-violence, but no one has the power to repeal it or make someone except from it, even the influence of the Endailon of Chaos didn't result in any actual harm.

I have to read that as us counting up the number of a particular day on a calendar, so for instance the first day of a month; but no I will never accept that a Age of Wonders IV day is just a 24 earth day. Maybe the concept of a week or a month doesn't exist in their languages, so we are counting a multiple of the actual day. So actually a turn is something like twelve days (so nearly two weeks) and we are counting the number of the multiple as day X.

So we don't say month X, because months don't exist as a concept, but rather we count the number of days and then count an arbitrary number of sunsets to the same practical effect.

In Age of Wonders 1, a turn is indeed a day and that is confirmed in the lore text itself. Given the limited, almost purely military nature of that game, in that new settlements are not built, nor do they grow, this was barely workable. It stopped being workable once we got to Age of Wonders II and we started to build new settlements and "Rome wasn't built in a day".

You would be correct, if we were actually travelling through the Astral Sea. But we aren't, instead we are using magical world-gates to instantly travel between two points in space, one on Magehaven and the other. Time isn't passing mid-teleport, which means we have to select not only where we teleport to, but also when we teleport to.

Government isn't the same thing as a dictatorship Vladishi, just because there isn't a King of Magehaven lording over everyone else, does not mean that the place is in any way anarchic.

I might be misreading his posts, but it seems to me he is just pointing out that predominantly basing your theory on game mechanics makes it a hard sell. Game relies on certain degree of abstractions to make it all work from end game turn timer to unlimited resource generation, etc and so on.

It is like making a theory about Godir having a very restrictive engagement code that everyone is adhering to be it dragon, eldritch abomination or wizard about armies absolutely requiring to have a specific color from a palette of 13. Can you make such a theory - yeah, is it convincing - not really.


Holly F, people do things fast in AoW if 1 day is indeed 1 day. Michelle need to confirm that, 'cause Jordi can be just ... well trolling after some cold ones with da boyz. ;D

PS
Also

Maps are not entire realms just part of it. Otherwise first mission is the whole of Athla and not just a Valley of Wonders and same can be said about Arcalot.

If the devs continue to claim it is a literal 24 hour day, I too will simply conclude that the devs are trolling us.

Look, i constantly asked you for lore supporting your theory. If you could find anything that means yaka is an archon or that worldtravel has accidental timetravel i would believe you. But so far all you do is claim that since nothing specifically points out world-gates dont cause time-travel, you have to be right. Thats not how anything like this works. If your speculation is supposed to be believable, you need to base it on some evidence. Not on the lack of evidence against it.

I could just as easily claim that all godir are constantly seeing through the eyes of all their subjects. Nothing mentions this not being the case. And we have Vision on units outside our rulers Vision.

It is completely made up, has no evidence at all. But i could still go "show me where it says this isn't the case" and claim i am right. But i don't do such things.

Edit: to my knowledge the only mention about time stuff is from Merlin. Where he said in 3 he was long gone, like 1500 years. But only like 100 years passed on athla or something like that.

That doesn't mean he time-travelled. That just means if you spent one year on athla, where time flows slower and your twin goes for 1 year to a fast flowing world then returns, he aged 15 years on his return. For him 15 years passed, for you 1. He didn't travel 14 years into the past. His "now" and your "now" are the same point in time. But every moment here is 15 there. So if you go there for 2 days, a month here passed.

No you didn't, you dismissed my ideas based upon mere "game mechanics" when I never claimed they were anything but my private interpretation inspired by those mechanics. I never claimed my ideas as the "definite final answer" to anything.

Time runs differently in the Shadow Realm of Age of Wonders II Shadow Magic than it does on Athla. That means that time is *not* absolute and it runs differently on different worlds.

With the absence of an absolute time, combined with the ability to travel instantly between different worlds, time travel is implied to exist, because time is a dimension in space and you have to arrive not only at a certain place, but also a certain time.

All we have about Magehaven lore is a line, that an ancient spell prevents anyone from harming others there. Not a single mention of government and rules. It probably was made by the Archons ages ago. Lost and now rediscovered by Meandor.

Most likely it is just a neutral ground where you can meet other Godir without having to fear getting back-stabbed at a moments notice. Important here, that is only assured by a spell. No cooperation, no government, no authority.

So your whole authority stuff is speculation again, which you use to support another speculation so your timetravel theory can make sense.

Sorry, but the magehaven description only says it prevents harming others, not misinformation. It also doesn't enforce cooperation as seen in the oasis intro.

I honestly have no idea how you managed to start with a line about a spell preventing harm and conclude from that there is some government with rules, authority. Add merlins quote and conclude that same authority prevents people from accidentally getting trapped in the past. Especially considering, that you aren't even forced to use magehaven to use a worldgate.
Even if all of that were true, people still could travel from athla, to the Caldera, to tharru cath and back and accidentally get stuck in a different time. Because your version only has magehaven covered.

I could just leave from Magehaven to athla, then travel to the destination we both want to arrive at and mess his timeline up. No chance to check that in your system. But yaka is lost to time now. Mission accomplished.

You don't travel between worlds via the Astral Sea in the game, though this is very much possible and Edward Portsmith does it on the Oasis Mission; the key thing though is that people generally *avoid* doing that. The world gate on Tharru'Cath goes directly to Magehaven and in the game it is very difficult to figure out how to use it correctly. There aren't any world-gates that don't involve Magehaven in the game to our knowledge and if there were, the principles of their use would be the same as they are for Magehaven.

Those principles are that everyone leaving has to arrive at their destination *after* the last person that left from their world to the other.

The Oasis intro is an example of their *being* cooperation, since even though none are able to physically harm eachother, there is still a system in place by which squabbling Godir are expelled from Magehaven to fight it out on other worlds. There was an order, that order broke down and then order was restored, so there is not a permanant state of anarchy.

Misinformation is irrelevant if records are kept regarding the use of all worldgates, so that everyone knows the target time of every wordgate journey. Godir don't have to rely on hearsay, but rather they check the records kept on the wordgates themselves.
 
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Time runs differently in the Shadow Realm of Age of Wonders II Shadow Magic than it does on Athla. That means that time is *not* absolute and it runs differently on different worlds.

With the absence of an absolute time, combined with the ability to travel instantly between different worlds, time travel is implied to exist, because time is a dimension in space and you have to arrive not only at a certain place, but also a certain time.

I dont see how it cant be absolute if different worlds run at different speed. There doesnt need timetravel to be involved for it to work. On top of that this is a high magic fantasy setting. Even if some real world stuff forbids it, nearly everything we do ingame is somehow related to magic.

Besides that, even in the real world time can behave differently to my understanding. As far as I know traveling faster slows down time for you, similarly being close to a big gravitational force should have a similar effect. Yet, that doesnt mean a guy in a rocket that flies close to lightspeed will be timetraveling in the sense, that he could ever arrive before he left. But the world around him will move on normaly. Even if the guy experienced only 10 years of travel, the world could have moved on 100.

So for every passed second, 10 seconds passed on earth. For every past day, 10 days passed. Returning after 10 days and 6 seconds of travelling would then mean earth had 100 days and a minute pass. No timetraveling involved. No option to travel 10 days and return to earth day 11, because its at 100 already.

Same would work for the realms in aow. You went to a world with faster time and stayed there for a week? At home a month passed, and you cant ever go back to a time before that.

You don't travel between worlds via the Astral Sea in the game, though this is very much possible and Edward Portsmith does it on the Oasis Mission; the key thing though is that people generally *avoid* doing that. The world gate on Tharru'Cath goes directly to Magehaven and in the game it is very difficult to figure out how to use it correctly. There aren't any world-gates that don't involve Magehaven in the game to our knowledge and if there were, the principles of their use would be the same as they are for Magehaven.

Those principles are that everyone leaving has to arrive at their destination *after* the last person that left from their world to the other.

The Oasis intro is an example of their *being* cooperation, since even though none are able to physically harm eachother, there is still a system in place by which squabbling Godir are expelled from Magehaven to fight it out on other worlds. There was an order, that order broke down and then order was restored, so there is not a permanant state of anarchy.

Misinformation is irrelevant if records are kept regarding the use of all worldgates, so that everyone knows the target time of every wordgate journey. Godir don't have to rely on hearsay, but rather they check the records kept on the wordgates themselves.

Just because its never directly stated, that a world gate can also lead to other destinations, doesnt mean magehaven is the only place you can arrive too. They could as easily work like stargates stargates. You have to know the right combination for your destination. By typing in magehaven, you only get to magehaven. If you dont know what the code for the world is you want to visit, you better make sure you learn it, if you dont want to strand in the void.

But your last part about the records is actually an even bigger problem. It means everyone has access to everyone elses travel data. People wouldnt really be surprised by Lythil returning and attacking Athla if they could see Eldritch Lythil wander through a gate in magehaven and set the next one for athla, so her umbral demons can invade with her.

Here the lore entry for world gate. The hard part seems mostly to be to not get lost in the void. It also talks about "other worlds". Not "to magehaven" or "from magehaven".
Worldgate.PNG


Upon rechecking some screenshots:
Tharru Cath Win.jpg



Important here "you set its destination". You cant really set it if there is only one destination. You picked that place on escaping. Probably to warn the godir of Lythil.

Edit: On a sidenote. If all worldgates would only let you reach magehaven, we would know way more about the archons. They would constantly use them in their war against urrath. So they would have to go through magehaven every time. And in Arcalot meandor asks Oneron about the archons, who refuses to answer. There would be no need for him to ask Oneron if he saw Archons regularly.
 
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Government isn't the same thing as a dictatorship Vladishi, just because there isn't a King of Magehaven lording over everyone else, does not mean that the place is in any way anarchic.
Neither does anarchy mean absolute chaos. Just because all the Godir somewhat get along because there's an unintelligent force beyond anyone's ability to influence it, doesn't mean there's a government in place. No more than you suddenly finding yourself on Mars and still not being able to fly just by flapping your arms due to gravity meaning that there's suddenly a Martian government, and your imminent death due to depressurization being a capital punishment for interplanetary invasion.
I have to read that as us counting up the number of a particular day on a calendar, so for instance the first day of a month; but no I will never accept that a Age of Wonders IV day is just a 24 earth day. Maybe the concept of a week or a month doesn't exist in their languages, so we are counting a multiple of the actual day. So actually a turn is something like twelve days (so nearly two weeks) and we are counting the number of the multiple as day X.

So we don't say month X, because months don't exist as a concept, but rather we count the number of days and then count an arbitrary number of sunsets to the same practical effect.

In Age of Wonders 1, a turn is indeed a day and that is confirmed in the lore text itself. Given the limited, almost purely military nature of that game, in that new settlements are not built, nor do they grow, this was barely workable. It stopped being workable once we got to Age of Wonders II and we started to build new settlements and "Rome wasn't built in a day".
Rome wasn't built in a day, true. But there was a day it was started to be built, and I'd argue that the "Rome" in the saying refers specifically to a Rome in the state of being a grandiose city, and not just a shack on the Capitoline Hill. Cities in AoW4 start as outposts usually, which take a few days to build, and then a few days more to actually become a village, which then takes about 1,5 months to become a metropolis. That's quick, sure, but not unbelievable in a world where magic exists, and, given that actually founding a city requires influence (as opposed to just an outpost with a work camp), it stands to reason that founding a city involves attracting population to, well, populate the initial village.

I'd also note that despite the series having come a long way it's still largely of military nature, and certainly it's not an immersive sim where cities are built over centuries. Some time compression is expected for the game to have actual gameplay and not just inordinate amount of waiting.

I will also once again note conjunctions. But I will also note quests. It already stretches credibility that some random hero's sibling survives in an infested mine for 20 days without help, but it would be even more ridiculous if it were weeks or months. And there are several such quests where turn restrictions make sense to be measured in days and not anything more.
You would be correct, if we were actually travelling through the Astral Sea. But we aren't, instead we are using magical world-gates to instantly travel between two points in space, one on Magehaven and the other. Time isn't passing mid-teleport, which means we have to select not only where we teleport to, but also when we teleport to.
Does a photon decide where it will travel to at the moment it is emitted? Time doesn't pass for it, ever, as it travels at the speed of light. Nor do photons break causality.
 
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Just because its never directly stated, that a world gate can also lead to other destinations, doesnt mean magehaven is the only place you can arrive too. They could as easily work like stargates stargates. You have to know the right combination for your destination. By typing in magehaven, you only get to magehaven. If you dont know what the code for the world is you want to visit, you better make sure you learn it, if you dont want to strand in the void.

But your last part about the records is actually an even bigger problem. It means everyone has access to everyone elses travel data. People wouldnt really be surprised by Lythil returning and attacking Athla if they could see Eldritch Lythil wander through a gate in magehaven and set the next one for athla, so her umbral demons can invade with her.

Here the lore entry for world gate. The hard part seems mostly to be to not get lost in the void. It also talks about "other worlds". Not "to magehaven" or "from magehaven".
View attachment 1252925

You are broadly correct; however the concept of an isolated world is mentioned there.

An isolated world could mean a world that is not in sync with the Magehaven *Present*; isolated in time as it were.

Everyone does not have access to everyone's travel data, unless they actually identify themselves by means of the data that is being entered. They know that somebody entered Athla at a certain time, but not who did it. This fits well with game mechanics; we initially know how many players we are up against but not who they are.

It is only once they have the information about her plans, that they know that the *somebody* of the anonomous data is Lithyl and so they can make sure not to arrive before she has already destroyed Athla.

Upon rechecking some screenshots:
View attachment 1252933


Important here "you set its destination". You cant really set it if there is only one destination. You picked that place on escaping. Probably to warn the godir of Lythil.

Edit: On a sidenote. If all worldgates would only let you reach magehaven, we would know way more about the archons. They would constantly use them in their war against urrath. So they would have to go through magehaven every time. And in Arcalot meandor asks Oneron about the archons, who refuses to answer. There would be no need for him to ask Oneron if he saw Archons regularly.

You actually can, if all the destinations are on Magehaven.

The Archons might also have added in the 'other destinations' as a TBD feature. :)

Alternatively destination simply means "destination in time", entirely in accord to my ideas. You have to be the last to arrive at Magehaven from Tharru'Cath, or else you will end up travelling to the past and causing time-travel problems.

We basically know we cannot move directly between worlds in practice, since otherwise we would build worldgates on the worlds on which we won and then have them send resources via them to aid us in conquering our new worlds. So it is clearly not a thing to use world-gates to move stuff directly between worlds, bypassing Magehaven.

Neither does anarchy mean absolute chaos. Just because all the Godir somewhat get along because there's an unintelligent force beyond anyone's ability to influence it, doesn't mean there's a government in place. No more than you suddenly finding yourself on Mars and still not being able to fly just by flapping your arms due to gravity meaning that there's suddenly a Martian government, and your imminent death due to depressurization being a capital punishment for interplanetary invasion.

An anarchy that does not means chaos is conceivable only in the same way that it is possible to conclude of a Square-Triangle or some other logical contradiction.
Unsubjugated individual agency always leads to loss of social cohesion within a group, even if the person engaging in such agency is the actual leader of the group; consequently all social order depends upon a degree of submission to the structure of the group *itself* by the members of the group and if this is not given willingly it must be compelled. In practice compulsion means that over-autonomous followers (criminals) are disciplined and over-autonomous leaders (tyrants) are overthrown.

Though the Godir are prevented from directly harming eachother by an 'unseen force', but they are quite capable of causing complete mayhem in Magehaven and this is very much a problem for the functioning of Magehaven itself.

0.1 Aftermath of Grexolis.png


The solution is not brought about by some mysterious force, but by a particular Godir of ill-repute, Meandor.

0.2 Quarelling Godir are exiled.png


Meandor is acting here as a government authority and he devises a punishment that works even though nobody can physically harm anyone in Magehaven; we will simply kick you out and send you to a place where you *can* be harmed.

Rome wasn't built in a day, true. But there was a day it was started to be built, and I'd argue that the "Rome" in the saying refers specifically to a Rome in the state of being a grandiose city, and not just a shack on the Capitoline Hill. Cities in AoW4 start as outposts usually, which take a few days to build, and then a few days more to actually become a village, which then takes about 1,5 months to become a metropolis. That's quick, sure, but not unbelievable in a world where magic exists, and, given that actually founding a city requires influence (as opposed to just an outpost with a work camp), it stands to reason that founding a city involves attracting population to, well, populate the initial village.

You cannot build an settlement, however primitive in a mere day, since it takes more than a day to inform all your would-be settlers about your plan, more than a day for them to pack their supplies and then more than a day for them to arrive even to set up tents. We can't be using magic to get around this, because otherwise we would be using the same magic to move armies across the map.

In AoW 1, we generally don't build much and so a time-frame of days almost-worked (excepting for migration of cities and building of stone walls). It all entirely stopped working come Age of Wonders II though.

I'd also note that despite the series having come a long way it's still largely of military nature, and certainly it's not an immersive sim where cities are built over centuries. Some time compression is expected for the game to have actual gameplay and not just inordinate amount of waiting.

I will also once again note conjunctions. But I will also note quests. It already stretches credibility that some random hero's sibling survives in an infested mine for 20 days without help, but it would be even more ridiculous if it were weeks or months. And there are several such quests where turn restrictions make sense to be measured in days and not anything more.

Does a photon decide where it will travel to at the moment it is emitted? Time doesn't pass for it, ever, as it travels at the speed of light. Nor do photons break causality.

A photon still has a location *in* time, since even though no time ever passes for it, it does for the rest of us.

In my head canon, a turn is two months, meaning that our hero's sibling would be surviving for 3 years. But don't entire races live underground in Age of Wonders universe?

A solution to the DaysVSTurns problem is to think of the people of AoW as not having actually concept of a Week or Month.

Think of it like this; instead of counting weeks we instead count the number of Mondays. Instead of "it was five weeks", we instead say "it was five Mondays", to the same practical purpose.

Let's now assume that days are numbered, so rather than having a special name for the day (Monday) they are counting, it is rather Day+N.

Day
Day-1
Day-2
Day-3
Day-4
Day-5
Day-6

The days that are turns in the game, are just called Days, because they are Day 0. When we run out of numbers to describe our days , we go back to 0, but we don't say that 100 days 0s have passed, but rather simply that 100 days have passed.
 
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An anarchy that does not means chaos is conceivable only in the same way that it is possible to conclude of a Square-Triangle or some other logical contradiction.
Unsubjugated individual agency always leads to loss of social cohesion within a group, even if the person engaging in such agency is the actual leader of the group; consequently all social order depends upon a degree of submission to the structure of the group *itself* by the members of the group and if this is not given willingly it must be compelled. In practice compulsion means that over-autonomous followers (criminals) are disciplined and over-autonomous leaders (tyrants) are overthrown.
What you've typed just means that Magehaven is anarchic. Since the enchantment on it prevents forceful compulsion, there is no way a supposed government can coerce anyone or punish the deviant. A government is supposed to have monopoly on violence, which no one can have in Magehaven.
Meandor is acting here as a government authority and he devises a punishment that works even though nobody can physically harm anyone in Magehaven; we will simply kick you out and send you to a place where you *can* be harmed.
It is not a punishment. The slide outright says that Meandor made a suggestion. One that no one was forced to abide by. Punishments are non-negotiable. Meandor couldn't kick anyone out.
You cannot build an settlement, however primitive in a mere day, since it takes more than a day to inform all your would-be settlers about your plan, more than a day for them to pack their supplies and then more than a day for them to arrive even to set up tents. We can't be using magic to get around this, because otherwise we would be using the same magic to move armies across the map.
Just because you press the button a few days before doesn't have to mean in-story that the decision was made then and there. Again, this is only a game, one that does not concern itself with the matter of logistics outside of HP attrition. Time compression is a necessary weasel for the game to be playable.
In my head canon, a turn is two months, meaning that our hero's sibling would be surviving for 3 years. But don't entire races live underground in Age of Wonders universe?
In a single mine infested with caustic worms that have killed everyone else?

This is also not the only event that doesn't make sense on large timescales. There is also an event where a free city invites your ruler to a traditional hunt. Hunts don't last for years.
 
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The solution is not brought about by some mysterious force, but by a particular Godir of ill-repute, Meandor.

View attachment 1254274

Meandor is acting here as a government authority and he devises a punishment that works even though nobody can physically harm anyone in Magehaven; we will simply kick you out and send you to a place where you *can* be harmed.
Sorry, i dont think i can take anything about lore from you serious from this point on, if you even misread your own sources. He isnt punishing anyone. He isnt kicking anyone out.

In oasis he finds 4 volunteers who want to settle a dispute and to maybe use them as a good example later about how one could settle further disputes. Meandors power here is along someone starting a petition and then playing referee. 0 authority in the sense of having any power in a government.

Magehaven is a magical protected neutral ground. Its as far removed from a government as i can imagine.

Even a power vacuum is closer to a government, because someone will try to grab that power.
 
the consequences of crossing Magehavens rules and conventions are so punishment, exclusion, etc, not state punishment i.e. prison etc
its not a power vaccum or a government, it's a community. they are god kings who rule vast empires, they don't pay taxes to cover road matience
think family, or think club house, but ramped up to 100
not nation
 
the consequences of crossing Magehavens rules and conventions are so punishment, exclusion, etc, not state punishment i.e. prison etc
its not a power vaccum or a government, it's a community. they are god kings who rule vast empires, they don't pay taxes to cover road matience
think family, or think club house, but ramped up to 100
not nation

It is a neutral meeting ground for godkings. Nothing more and nothing less.
 
1. thats not what the text says
2. thats not how people work

even if it was 'nothing more' it would cease to be that after two minutes, relationships develop, people, places things.
 
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What you've typed just means that Magehaven is anarchic. Since the enchantment on it prevents forceful compulsion, there is no way a supposed government can coerce anyone or punish the deviant. A government is supposed to have monopoly on violence, which no one can have in Magehaven.

It is not a punishment. The slide outright says that Meandor made a suggestion. One that no one was forced to abide by. Punishments are non-negotiable. Meandor couldn't kick anyone out.

Just because you press the button a few days before doesn't have to mean in-story that the decision was made then and there. Again, this is only a game, one that does not concern itself with the matter of logistics outside of HP attrition. Time compression is a necessary weasel for the game to be playable.

In a single mine infested with caustic worms that have killed everyone else?

This is also not the only event that doesn't make sense on large timescales. There is also an event where a free city invites your ruler to a traditional hunt. Hunts don't last for years.

1. There isn't much difference between surviving for a day or surviving for two years, provided you have the supplies available to do so. The creatures will either eat you in a few days, or they will fail to eat you for months or years; the problem is not the creatures but rather the supplies and that includes the supply of oxygen. Once we know they are down there, we can send supply shipments to keep them alive, provided that we can evade the hostile creatures to do so (Teleportation? Invisibility? Distraction?).

As already mentioned, I consider it to be the case that they don't have a concept of weeks or months and instead use specific marked days to keep track of time. So rather than saying Five Weeks, they are instead saying the equivalent of Five Mondays. A turn in which no battles are fought is resolved within a day, but I guess some turns have to be longer if there are a lot of battles going on. The 'boring logistics' happen between turns, so between this Monday and the next one.

In my headcanon, they actually number days and the turns of Age of Wonders I are shorter than the other games. The reason for that is that they adopted a different number system between Age of Wonders I and II; originally they used a Base-12 number system or a Base-10 number system. In our RL language we use a Base-12 number system, but in our maths we use a Base-10 number system, resulting in a contradictional situation where we count up to twelve but then we call the number afterwards Thirteen (Three-Ten) rather than Twelve-One (which would be more logical).

The Wizards of Evermore, by contradiction used a Base-60 number system, so they have proper words for all the numbers up to 60 and then it is 60 and 1 afterwards. So an Age of Wonders I turn is a period of either 10 or 12 days, but an Age of Wonders II+III+IV turn is a period of 60 days, since Athla adopted their Base-60 number system after the Wizards conquered the Blessed Continent prior to Age of Wonders II.

2. You are quite correct, in that the existence of the 'protection spell' that prevents those in Magehaven from harming each-other does complicate the functioning of government in the same way that Human Rights complicates the functioning of a government in real-life. If you have an inherent *right* to something, then I cannot then make it conditional upon obedience to my government, which undermines my government's power and ultimately its ability to gain the resources to protect those very rights. What a government has to do in this situation is to find something that its citizens *don't* have a right to, but still want to have and then make having that thing conditional upon obedience.

In Magehaven the Right to Life is an absolute law of nature, but there is no evidence for the existence of a Right to Remain in Magehaven operating in any similar fashion. So when people disobey the government of Magehaven, the government can simply expel people from it to somewhere else, as we see very much at work in the Oasis mission.

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As we can tell from the angry people in the background futilely attempting to harm each-other, people in Magehaven can make physical contact and if that is the case then there is no reason they cannot be physically restrained and then thrown through a World-Gate, provided I guess that the destination of that World-Gate is habitable for the individual being thrown through it.

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You are correct in that it does say that Meandor made a suggestion, but it does not say to *whom* the suggestion was made. The way it is written in the third person, however, suggests that he did not approach individual Godir separately, but rather that certain Godir considered 'quarrelling' were formed into groups and then required to travel to other realms to settle their differences. Somebody here is deciding here who actually counts as Quarrelling Godir and grouping them together.

They aren't leaving because they individually chose to do so, they are leaving because they were commanded to do so and they all know that Magehaven has the means to compel their expulsion were they to refuse to obey. Otherwise we have the ridiculous situation where the troublemakers all decided independantly they were in fact the troublemakers and then successfully organised into groups with those they despise.

Sorry, i don't think i can take anything about lore from you serious from this point on, if you even misread your own sources. He isn't punishing anyone. He isn't kicking anyone out.

In oasis he finds 4 volunteers who want to settle a dispute and to maybe use them as a good example later about how one could settle further disputes. Meandors power here is along someone starting a petition and then playing referee. 0 authority in the sense of having any power in a government.

Magehaven is a magical protected neutral ground. Its as far removed from a government as i can imagine.

Even a power vacuum is closer to a government, because someone will try to grab that power.

He is implementing government policy, which makes him part of the government to-all-intents-and-purposes. The only question here is whether he is a Carpenter or just the Someone-Who-Chops-Wood, that is to say whether he has any recognised official status, but from the wood's POV it's irrelevant.

You read things into certain sources that aren't there while other sources are ignored entirely; voluntarily obeying the government is still obeying the government. A person may volunteer to accept a better punishment of their own choosing in place of a worse punishment chosen by others (if given the option). It is better to 'volunteer' to leave with your whole host of followers and remain powerful, than to be thrown alone onto some gods-forsaken world where you will be quickly enslaved by the locals.

In life there is such a thing as an 'offer you can't refuse' and this is often implicitly understood rather than stated outright. We know they aren't genuinely choosing to go to the Oasis because there 'simply isn't anything in it for them'.

What do the Oasis Godir gets from being at the Oasis? Presumably what they would gain is the ability to actually kill the other Godir and their followers, but they actually enjoy a relations BONUS from being participants in the trial, so that isn't it.

Meandor also doesn't agree with you about Magehaven, to talk about you ignoring sources.

1.2 Anarchy in Magehaven.png


Meandor explicitly says that Magehaven fell into anarchy. Him saying that wouldn't make any sense in your vision of an anarchic Magehaven, for the same reason the following phrase, "Last Wednesday the water became wet," is nonsense.

That we don't move resources from our 'old games' to our 'new games', could be explained by the existence of a formerly Neutral government in Magehaven. The rules of Magehaven might prohibit Godir from moving resources through it to support their various war efforts, because doing otherwise would violate Magehaven's policy of neutrality in the conflicts between the Godir.

Were there actually Anarchy in Magehaven, this would no longer be the case. We would move vast amounts of resources from our 'old games' through Magehaven and as long as we could keep them from being stolen (which really just means extra resources dedicated for security) then they would arrive at our 'new games' to fix the game in our favour and to counter us, our enemies, would then do exactly the same thing themselves.

The political result of this ends up being an immense centralisation of power, since the bigger, older Godir have the resources of extensive off-map holdings to call upon while newer Godir have no such holdings and the result is a situation where newer Godir can never successfully challenge the older Godir.

Then all that needs to happen is that one of the larger, older Godir defeats all the other Godir of similar strength to themselves and now we have a King-Of-The-Universe, since nobody exists that can funnel the essentially limitless resources via Magehaven needed to defeat them. So when you think about it, certain Godir (I'm thinking of Yaka) might actually seek to throw Magehaven into anarchy because that would facilitate their ambitions.

The existance of a government in Magehaven, levels the playing field among Godir and this works against the oldest Godir with the most extensive domains.
 
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There isn't much difference between surviving for a day or surviving for two years, provided you have the supplies available to do so. The creatures will either eat you in a few days, or they will fail to eat you for months or years; the problem is not the creatures but rather the supplies and that includes the supply of oxygen. Once we know they are down there, we can send supply shipments to keep them alive, provided that we can evade the hostile creatures to do so (Teleportation? Invisibility? Distraction?).
Yes, there is very much a difference between surviving for a day or two years. As long as there is a daily chance of being discovered and eaten by wild animals, the longer the rescue takes, the less are your overall chances of survival. That's just how probability works.

Also, literally the premise of the quest is that a hero asks your ruler to investigate a mine where their sibling worked and there is no contact with said sibling until the beasts are defeated. There are no shipments of supplies made, and if there are ways to evade the beasts by the means of invisibility or teleportation, there would be no need to kill the beasts, since the rescue could be done that way.
As already mentioned, I consider it to be the case that they don't have a concept of weeks or months and instead use specific marked days to keep track of time. So rather than saying Five Weeks, they are instead saying the equivalent of Five Mondays. A turn in which no battles are fought is resolved within a day, but I guess some turns have to be longer if there are a lot of battles going on. The 'boring logistics' happen between turns, so between this Monday and the next one.
So, your headcanon is that a turn last 1 day and then for the rest of the month nothing is actually being done other than logistics? Armies don't march, battles aren't fought, spells aren't cast (unless they are being cast from the previous turn, with casting points being accumulated over the month). This is by far more ludicrous than just time compression is favour of faster gameplay, IMO.
You are quite correct, in that the existence of the 'protection spell' that prevents those in Magehaven from harming each-other does complicate the functioning of government in the same way that Human Rights complicates the functioning of a government in real-life. If you have an inherent *right* to something, then I cannot then make it conditional upon obedience to my government, which undermines my government's power and ultimately its ability to gain the resources to protect those very rights. What a government has to do in this situation is to find something that its citizens *don't* have a right to, but still want to have and then make having that thing conditional upon obedience.
As someone from a country where human rights realistically exist only as words written on paper and do not affect the government's operations in the slightest, I can only bitterly laugh at you equating human rights with a magic spell enforcing peace and furthermore nullifying any potential harm. Again, the monopoly on violence is essential for a government to be called a government. A law that is not and cannot be enforced is no law at all.
In Magehaven the Right to Life is an absolute law of nature, but there is no evidence for the existence of a Right to Remain in Magehaven operating in any similar fashion. So when people disobey the government of Magehaven, the government can simply expel people from it to somewhere else, as we see very much at work in the Oasis mission.
And yet the only time we see anything even resembling violence (and "resembling" is the right word, as what is described is still less of a violence than professional wrestling, which at least carries a risk of injury) is under the effects of the Endailon of Chaos. Every other time Magehaven is depicted as an open forum with the Godir standing at a respectable remove from on another. An entire cabal of the Godir opposed to the ideals of its supposed ruler, Meandor, gathers openly in Magehaven in a plot that endangers the universe and which Meandor and the Covenant oppose militarily where they actually can.

So tell me, how are they going to expel anyone without enforcing it through violence, which is magically forbidden? It is pretty clear that Magehaven is not a government, nor is it even supposed to be one. It is only a forum for the Godir to come together. It's essentially the UN, except that UN is somehow more effective and actually comes with treaties and propositions the members are supposed to follow and directs international aid and meager peacekeeping efforts, while Magehaven instead serves as a ferrying point for world-conquering armies. Both did manage to gather for a direct military intervention once in a blue moon, though.
 
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