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In a single mine infested with caustic worms that have killed everyone else?

This is also not the only event that doesn't make sense on large timescales. There is also an event where a free city invites your ruler to a traditional hunt. Hunts don't last for years.
I don't know, 2 months might be too long but 24 hours is bizarrely quick.

Besides if we are talking about particular quest then a few things should be noted.
First the dude is a prospector, this implies he probably got in that cave prepared so most likely he can last there for a long time (like a loooong time) and he is also a healer if I am not mistaken (I would think that would help to prolong the survival too).
Second it is kinda typical for fantasy when someone survives in infested cave/underground for a wickedly long time. In LoTR Gollum survives in a goblin infested cave for decades if not more by chomping on fresh fish and some random lost goblin and in Dragon Age some dwarf survived in darkspawn infested tunnels also for decades.
So imo that one make a lot of sense if it is longer than 20 days.


With a hunt quest my only explanation it is one of those long hunts for a sacred rare animal. I would say something akin to captain Ahab hunt for Moby Dick (altho probably not that long) that was a few years. So again even there I wouldn't discard the interpretation that hunt could last for a few months for example.
 
So tell me, how are they going to expel anyone without enforcing it through violence, which is magically forbidden?
These details really aren't all that important. It's stated that violence won't work there. Just assume a portal opens and you go woosh. Or everyone there is invincible. Your offensive magic and swords don't work.
 
These details really aren't all that important. It's stated that violence won't work there. Just assume a portal opens and you go woosh. Or everyone there is invincible. Your offensive magic and swords don't work.
That doesnt sound like a good argument. If forced or restricted movement is allowed, you could push or teleport people into an abyss, throw them into a voidcage or lava, or let them starve.

All we have is one line about preventing harm. We have no idea what that includes. Because your definition of inflicting physical harm might not be the only thing prevented by the spell. It can as easily see mind manipulation, locking someone into a room, torture or forced movement as harmful effects. Maybe something like an endailon can easily overpower its effects too.
 
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You read things into certain sources that aren't there while other sources are ignored entirely;
So let me get this straight. You claim I dont read sources carefully and ignore others to support my point?

Have you ever looked into a mirror? That is pretty much what you do all the time here.

You read suggestion as forcing people into exile. Think because magehaven can be in anarchy (which might just mean its in chaos as seen in the screenshots) that there has to be a government in power that can send godir into prison worlds. You read the entries for World gates and conclude from it that they only lead to or from magehaven and they clearly do timetravel and can trap you in another timeline despite 0 evidence for any of that. You read yaka is the azrac god and claim that means he made them despite the only mention of him making a race were aow2 tigrans.

Are you really sure its not you who does that so your headcanon remains intact?

You ever thought of if meandor had the government you claimed that can restrict access to worlds (because they have to go through magehaven with their army) that grexolis simply would never have happened? He was there at day 1 after all and sundren was busy saving him before invading grexolis.

If your headcanon were to be true he simply would have banished yaka, nimue, the player and lythil to some remote prison World with no way back. He didnt, because he couldnt. What he did and was able to do was to ask friends to help him defend grexolis. So that the shadrai dont simply overpower its guardian in a few turns. Doesnt sound like the all powerful government you want there to be.
 
Yes, there is very much a difference between surviving for a day or two years. As long as there is a daily chance of being discovered and eaten by wild animals, the longer the rescue takes, the less are your overall chances of survival. That's just how probability works.

Also, literally the premise of the quest is that a hero asks your ruler to investigate a mine where their sibling worked and there is no contact with said sibling until the beasts are defeated. There are no shipments of supplies made, and if there are ways to evade the beasts by the means of invisibility or teleportation, there would be no need to kill the beasts, since the rescue could be done that way.

So, your headcanon is that a turn last 1 day and then for the rest of the month nothing is actually being done other than logistics? Armies don't march, battles aren't fought, spells aren't cast (unless they are being cast from the previous turn, with casting points being accumulated over the month). This is by far more ludicrous than just time compression is favour of faster gameplay, IMO.

The mission isn't probabilistic, the hero's sibling dies after a definite amount of time; there isn't a % chance of dying per turn.

In my headcanon, the beginning of a turn is a single marked day on the calendar. A turn, but in some cases, because you have lots of battles to fight the turn might go on for longer, but still only for a minority of the total time 'between turns'. Lots of boring logistical stuff goes on the days 'between' turns, which is represented in the building of stuff and the regeneration of damaged units.

Time-compression doesn't work well due to another event.

35. Browen's Ride for Vengeance.png


In this event, your hero actually grew up at a specific place on the world in question and not on some other world. If turns were really days, then that would imply that thousands of turns passed between arrival and the start of the game, but if we had thousands of days, our capital city would be Size 30 and we would have built every conceivable structure we can, plus probably researched everything there is to research already.


As someone from a country where human rights realistically exist only as words written on paper and do not affect the government's operations in the slightest, I can only bitterly laugh at you equating human rights with a magic spell enforcing peace and furthermore nullifying any potential harm. Again, the monopoly on violence is essential for a government to be called a government. A law that is not and cannot be enforced is no law at all.

What you sum up as the situation 'from your country' is the situation that applies everywhere, because as a government you cannot respect human rights AND benefit from a monopoly on force at the same time; so all governments whose power rests substantially upon force of arms cannot actually respect human rights, so they don't. So the Magehaven situation is a very much an apt analogy to human rights, because they are basically what the proponents of human rights wish they could implement in reality, that the government *cannot* kill its people because it's own laws don't allow it to.

The government however does not have a 'monopoly on violence', the military does and the military is merely *part* of the government. In an environment like Magehaven where human rights are a law of nature, you cannot actually shoot people with your military, so people are left free to simply ignore a would-be government's claim to authority however complete their 'monopoly of force' actually is; because nobody cares who has a monopoly of force in a place where violence isn't possible.

It is only because of its ability and willingness to massacre civilians with its armies, that the government that controls the armies is *the* government. Because Power exists in the space between what *cannot* be done and what *must* be done. If I am forced to kill you, then my ability to do so gives me no power since there is no power over dead people and if I am unwilling or unable to ever kill you, then you can just laugh in my face however many weapons I have.

What gives you power over the civilian population as the one with the 'monopoly on force' is the fact that I have the option to kill the civilians or *not* kill the civilians depending upon how they behave towards me (particularly their paying taxes and working to sustain my military). However, this logic also applies to pretty much any in-demand good whatsoever, anyone with the ability to provide anything that the other party needs which they also have the ability to freely choose to *not* provide can function as the government of a place.

So if the Godir of Magehaven needed to have, say mana crystals and their government controlled the entire supply of them, they could enforce their will simply by withholding the mana crystal supply of those who did not abide by its edicts. Yet the moment that the Godir concieve of a 'right to mana' and the government agrees with them, that government loses their power.

And yet the only time we see anything even resembling violence (and "resembling" is the right word, as what is described is still less of a violence than professional wrestling, which at least carries a risk of injury) is under the effects of the Endailon of Chaos. Every other time Magehaven is depicted as an open forum with the Godir standing at a respectable remove from on another. An entire cabal of the Godir opposed to the ideals of its supposed ruler, Meandor, gathers openly in Magehaven in a plot that endangers the universe and which Meandor and the Covenant oppose militarily where they actually can.

So tell me, how are they going to expel anyone without enforcing it through violence, which is magically forbidden? It is pretty clear that Magehaven is not a government, nor is it even supposed to be one. It is only a forum for the Godir to come together. It's essentially the UN, except that UN is somehow more effective and actually comes with treaties and propositions the members are supposed to follow and directs international aid and meagre peacekeeping efforts, while Magehaven instead serves as a ferrying point for world-conquering armies. Both did manage to gather for a direct military intervention once in a blue moon, though.

It is not really relevant the reasons for the conflict in Magehaven. I suspect that the conflict happened more because of Grexolis and Lithyl not being who she seemed to be, than the Endailon's influence alone. On its own, I would expect Magehaven to be too well protected against Endailon influence and it was only the existing infighting that weakened that protection and the Endailon then made that infighting worse.

The key detail here is that, though nobody can clearly hurt anyone else, it is still possible for people to come into physical contact as the image I posted shows and it is also the case that two people cannot exist in the same physical space. That means that it is quite possible to expel people without using violence, since a large group of people can simply link arms together, walk forward and then push the troublemaker into a portal that goes to somewhere outside of Magehaven.

Provided that at no point the person being pushed in such as a way as to cause them harm, you can expel people from a place without the protective magic of Magehaven being triggered. There are some things you obviously cannot do, like send people to a hostile world that will kill them, but provided that you are careful to ensure the destination is habitable *enough* that sending them there isn't considered violence by the 'magical spell of protection', you can very much expel people through 'pushing' them.

But as already mentioned above, there are also other services and goods which the government can conditionally provide, in the absence of the ability to resort to violence. In RL, a key example of this is actually government jobs and contracts, which arguably is truly where a government's 'monopoly of force' comes from, since it can controls the supply of jobs in the military, would-be soldiers protect the government in order to obtain/keep their 'government jobs'.

So let me get this straight. You claim I dont read sources carefully and ignore others to support my point?

Have you ever looked into a mirror? That is pretty much what you do all the time here.

You read suggestion as forcing people into exile. Think because magehaven can be in anarchy (which might just mean its in chaos as seen in the screenshots) that there has to be a government in power that can send godir into prison worlds. You read the entries for World gates and conclude from it that they only lead to or from magehaven and they clearly do timetravel and can trap you in another timeline despite 0 evidence for any of that. You read yaka is the azrac god and claim that means he made them despite the only mention of him making a race were aow2 tigrans.

Are you really sure its not you who does that so your headcanon remains intact?

You ever thought of if meandor had the government you claimed that can restrict access to worlds (because they have to go through magehaven with their army) that grexolis simply would never have happened? He was there at day 1 after all and sundren was busy saving him before invading grexolis.

If your headcanon were to be true he simply would have banished yaka, nimue, the player and lythil to some remote prison World with no way back. He didnt, because he couldnt. What he did and was able to do was to ask friends to help him defend grexolis. So that the shadrai dont simply overpower its guardian in a few turns. Doesnt sound like the all powerful government you want there to be.

You claimed that Magehaven was an Anarchy, but a source directly contradicted you; so what I did before (in your opinion) is irreverent. You were clearly wrong and Magehaven does have a government.

But as I already stated before, they are a Neutral Government. This means they are not allowed to intervene in internal conflicts outside of Magehaven and this means limiting the amount of support said conflicting parties can receive from other worlds via Magehaven, which incidentally works in favour of those Godir with fewer resources.

If there are two groups of Godir, one who wish to invade Grexolis and the other that wish to stop them, the government is not able to side with those who do not wish to invade Grexolis, as that would be taking sides; Meandor isn't some dictator with absolute power just because he is acting as part of the government, possibly only informally.
 
You claimed that Magehaven was an Anarchy, but a source directly contradicted you; so what I did before (in your opinion) is irreverent. You were clearly wrong and Magehaven does have a government.

But as I already stated before, they are a Neutral Government. This means they are not allowed to intervene in internal conflicts outside of Magehaven and this means limiting the amount of support said conflicting parties can receive from other worlds via Magehaven, which incidentally works in favour of those Godir with fewer resources.

If there are two groups of Godir, one who wish to invade Grexolis and the other that wish to stop them, the government is not able to side with those who do not wish to invade Grexolis, as that would be taking sides; Meandor isn't some dictator with absolute power just because he is acting as part of the government, possibly only ininformally.
There still is no source that the loose collection of godir has a government.

Here the Definition of anarchy.


  1. a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems.​

  2. the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism


Meandor can easily mean 1. There is no order currently in magehaven. But 2. point can be true for all the other time on magehaven. No government but some kind of cooperation.

Under chaos endailons effect 2. turned into 1.

You also still havent shown anything about things like banishing people. And it would be really weird for meandor to banish the few who are actualy quite calm and let the ones who start useless brawls stay on magehaven.

Your claim about having to stay neutral on the question of opening the worldvault also isnt helping your cause.
Your hypothetical government can supposedly banish godir forever to a kinda livable prison World for not playing nice. But they wont do anything to stop someone from endangering the whole cosmos? You are aware how pathetic that government would be, right?

Also, why was there never an archon? According to you they need to go through magehaven with their worldgates.

We also dont know how the spell works. If it recognizes intent, it just can make a punch not do any damage. If it sees pushing someone through a portal as harmfull, the spell can make it impossible to move the other individual. Similar with imprisoning people or building a cage around them. Spell might just create an exit if the trapped individual wants to leave.

Edit: the definition got a bit messed up, but should still be readable.
 
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Time-compression doesn't work well due to another event.

View attachment 1258594

In this event, your hero actually grew up at a specific place on the world in question and not on some other world.
You have to keep in mind there are 2 main ways to hire a hero. From a free City or unaligned. Unaligned as easily could mean they are a native of that world and were there decades before their godir arrived. They also take quite a lot of Gold for entering our service. So its more likely you hired a local adventurer.

Another option got added lately where we hire a godir. If those can have that event too, it would be narratively unfitting. As the godirs are ascended and conquered at least one realm already before helping out elsewhere.
 
There still is no source that the loose collection of godir has a government.

Here the Definition of anarchy.


  1. a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems.​

  2. the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism


Meandor can easily mean 1. There is no order currently in magehaven. But 2. point can be true for all the other time on magehaven. No government but some kind of cooperation.

Under chaos endailons effect 2. turned into 1.

You also still havent shown anything about things like banishing people. And it would be really weird for meandor to banish the few who are actualy quite calm and let the ones who start useless brawls stay on magehaven.

Your claim about having to stay neutral on the question of opening the worldvault also isnt helping your cause.
Your hypothetical government can supposedly banish godir forever to a kinda livable prison World for not playing nice. But they wont do anything to stop someone from endangering the whole cosmos? You are aware how pathetic that government would be, right?

Also, why was there never an archon? According to you they need to go through magehaven with their worldgates.

We also dont know how the spell works. If it recognizes intent, it just can make a punch not do any damage. If it sees pushing someone through a portal as harmfull, the spell can make it impossible to move the other individual. Similar with imprisoning people or building a cage around them. Spell might just create an exit if the trapped individual wants to leave.

Edit: the definition got a bit messed up, but should still be readable.

1. We can pretty much guarantee that Meandor, who comes from a Dark culture, the game's Uber-Authoritarian society he is not going to consider the possibility that Magehaven is going to be an orderly place in the absence of a government. :)

Meandor makes a suggestion and though it does not say to whom he made the suggestion; it has to be made to someone with power. If Magehaven was an Anarchy, then Meandor would have to do everything himself, but the framing of the suggestion implies that it's one party (Meandor), making a suggestion to a second party (?) to do something about a third party (quarrelling Godir). Here the third party is clearly bound by the decisions of the second party, which means that the second party is some kind of authority over the third party, but the first party is not in charge of the second, hence why it is a suggestion not a command.

Since it is clear that the second mysterious party is in charge of the third party, there clearly is a hierarchy involved, so it is not an Anarchy, however you spin it.

2. What you mean, we haven't seen them banish people? That is exactly what they do in the Oasis mission, they banish the quarrelling Godir to other worlds in order to compete over the Seals. Given none of this is in their interests, some kind of power was clearly used to compel them to do this, they were required to leave and only permitted to return once one of them had 'won' the game and obtained control of the seals. But no, Meandor did not banish the 'calm' Godir, since the Oasis is just one of the 'games' going on and the four Godir involved are basically just being described as the 'best of a bad bunch' and that may simply be because they didn't try to 'resist arrest' (like the others did).

From the fact that the Oasis Godir left on relatively favourable terms (that is with their followers), you can argue that they probably cooperated with their own banishment somewhat. That makes it possibile that it wasn't possible to physically remove them and instead they were threatened with something else if they did not leave willingly, but given the impossibility of violence in Magehaven, there aren't too many possibilities there.

Though we don't know how the spell works, we know that it is possible for people in Magehaven to make physical contact. Unless two people can occupy the same physical space, then the ability to make contact implies the ability to push people, which then implies that with sufficient numbers you could simply shove a Godir through a Worldgate. Obviously, that cannot send them to any place that will kill them, but that does not rule out safe, but otherwise subjectively undesirable locations.

3. The Magehaven government is not controlled by the Covenant, it is Neutral and that means that it must not take sides in disputes between Godir. When a large number of powerful Godir support the Shad'rai project to 'endanger the whole cosmos', their internal politics do not allow them to violate their own neutrality policy and side with the Covenant/Guardian side on Grexolis.

However, they still indirectly helped them somewhat, as the Shad'rai side on Godir consisted of powerful, ancient Godir that presumably have a large number of holdings scattered over the entire cosmos. If there were no government in Magehaven, nothing would keep them from being able to utilise the full resources of these holdings to help them invade Grexolis. So interestingly, as the main transit hub, the neutrality of Magehaven is having the opposite effect to that which neutrality normally has, in that it is favouring the weaker side.

As for the Archons, they aren't around at that point to get involved, so Magehaven doesn't explain anything at all.

You have to keep in mind there are 2 main ways to hire a hero. From a free City or unaligned. Unaligned as easily could mean they are a native of that world and were there decades before their godir arrived. They also take quite a lot of Gold for entering our service. So its more likely you hired a local adventurer.

Another option got added lately where we hire a godir. If those can have that event too, it would be narratively unfitting. As the godirs are ascended and conquered at least one realm already before helping out elsewhere.

The Godir heroes aren't really relevant, since they clearly do come from Magehaven and yes, if they got that event, it would basically be a bug.

The problem is not how expensive they were to hire, but that they *may* be a hero of our own race, but we and our race arrived at the world from Magehaven, at least in the majority of cases (there are a few possible exceptions, like if you play as an Athlan Godir on the Arcalot Mission).

Now it is pretty obvious, from stuff like pre-existing free cities of our race along with the event I referred to that our race was there 'before' turn 1, when we ourselves appear to have arrived on the world. Yet given it would take at least 20 years for our hero to be born and then get to a level of training that we would have any interest in hiring them, even with two months between turns (my headcanon) that comes to 120 turns, implying about as much time passed for our race before the game as during it.

If a turn is simply a day, then it follows that there are thousands of turns passing for our race before the game started in those 20 years. Yet given how much they are able to accomplish in each of those days, upon our arrival we would basically end up playing Planetfall.