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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
Screenshot 2025-02-12 112612.png

Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


1739361227786.png

And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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A few reccs for mexican formables

The huastecs could have Tének Tsabál and the mixtecs ought to have Ñuu Savii. Both as tier 2 regionals before trying to further unite mesoamerica.

Anahuac could be a formable for a mesoamerica united by a nahua nation.

Outside mesoamerica proper. Chichimán is the term given by the aztecs to the lands north of the valley of Mexico. And could fit

Similarly Nicānāhuac/Nicaragua could be a good formable for central America.
 
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To enhance the historical identity of the Korean Peninsula, I propose adding two formable nations: Baekje and Korea (or Dai Han).

1. Baekje​

Although Baekje was destroyed during the Three Kingdoms period, it was later revived as Later Baekje during the Later Three Kingdoms period, once again establishing a powerful presence in the southern part of the Korean Peninsula. Additionally, Japan’s Ouchi Clan claimed to be the successors of Baekje, emphasizing their historical ties to the kingdom.

The formation conditions for Baekje could be as follows:

  • If Tamna (Jeju) conquers the southern regions of the Korean Peninsula (modern-day Gyeonggi, Chungcheong, and Jeolla areas).
  • If Japan’s Ouchi Clan occupies the same territory.
The national tier of Baekje should be either equal to or lower than Goryeo. It would be appropriate to categorize Baekje as Ahistorical.

2. Korea (Dai Han)​

The name Korea originates from Goryeo, but Goryeo did not unify the entire Korean Peninsula. Later, the Joseon Dynasty emerged and unified the peninsula, yet it would be more appropriate to retain the name Joseon for historical accuracy.

However, considering the historical precedent of the Empire of Korea (Dai Han) proclaimed in the late 19th century, a formable nation called Korea or Dai Han could be introduced. This nation would represent a higher-tier compared to Goryeo or Joseon and could be formed under the following conditions:
  • If it conquers Manchuria or parts of Japan.
  • If it undergoes specific reforms or modernization.
The appropriate classification for this nation would be Plausible.

I would like to propose a slightly modified suggestion based on this.



1.[Baekje] [백제]

Formation requirements are as follows:

• Control the southern region of the Korean Peninsula (Chungcheong and Jeolla provinces), with a core in the area and the capital located there.

or

• Conquer the above region as Japan's Ōuchi clan.

Baekje's national tier is 2 and Plausible.
다운로드 (4).jpeg



2. [Silla] [신라]

Formation requirements are as follows:

• Control the southern region of the Korean Peninsula (Gyeongsang province), with a core in the area and the capital located there.

Silla's national tier is 2 and Plausible.
다운로드 (5).jpeg



3. [Balhae] [발해]

Formation requirements are as follows:

• Control Balhae's territory, with a core in the area and the capital located there.

Balhae's national tier is 2 and Plausible.
Balhae-Territory_in_830.JPG



4. [Samhan or Han] [삼한 or 한]

Formation requirements are as follows:

• Conquer all territories of Goguryeo, Baekje, and Silla, with cores in those regions and the capital located there.

Samhan or Han's national tier is 3 and Ahistorical.
History_of_Korea-476.PNG
 
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I spotted use of the term Celtica here...


1740310416618.png


And in my copy in Irish.....


20250223_113610.jpg


I still think the tag Celtica is too Latin sounding with the examples seen above with Aquitania, Provinvcia and Belgica. It feels out of place for a Celtic nation to adopt a Latin name for a country of our people, and a endonym based on whoever forms the tag gets the name. If that is possible in Caesar. E.g. If the Irish form it Ceiltigh, would be more correct. (na) Ceiltigh being the Plural for (the) Celts, and I think this should be based on the dialect of who forms it. Which I suggest here:

 
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Wales should be a tier 1 formable not a tier 2 since both England and Hen Ogledd are both tier 2, historically Wales was a Principality part of the Kingdom of England and it should be used as a stepping stone to form one of the two
 
Canada and Australia(which should be added) should be considered plausible since they didn't federate before 1837, while Mexico and Brazil should be tier 4 since they were both huge land Empires unless there is something like a Latin America federation formable in which case they should be tier 3
 
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Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

View attachment 1253582View attachment 1253583
Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


View attachment 1253586
Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



View attachment 1253589
Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


View attachment 1253591
And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


View attachment 1253592
The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


View attachment 1253593
But it might be worth it…


View attachment 1253594
Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
Can we please have our Italian darling Piedmont-Sardinia/Sardinia-Piedmont? Definitely historical and my favourite nation to play as! Would love it if the country colour (teal blue) and flag were similar!
 
Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

View attachment 1253582View attachment 1253583
Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


View attachment 1253586
Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



View attachment 1253589
Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


View attachment 1253591
And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


View attachment 1253592
The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


View attachment 1253593
But it might be worth it…


View attachment 1253594
Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
add the Huns
 
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How about some formables related to colonization by a united Iberia or al-Andalus, since a lot of the existing South America tags are presumably predicated on the Treaty of Tordesillas?

Some in southern Africa also seem missing - South Africa and Madagascar, certainly, but the Congo, the Zanzibar coast and Mozambique could probably also benefit, both from tags for indigenous confederation and for colonial and post-colonial unifications.

Central America, also, perhaps?
 
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Please, add Hetmanate (Cossack Hetmanate) / Zaporizhia (tier 2) to formable historical tags, as it existed as a separate entity in the XVII – XVIII centuries for more than 100 years.
For some time it was independent, longer as a protectorate/vassal.

Cossacks were a crucial part of the regional history for more than 300 years and played an important role in the Polish, Ottoman, Muscovite and Crimean history.
It should have also a huge potential for unique flavour:
  • Zaporizhian Sich unique bulding
  • unique units (both land and naval)
  • republic stuff
  • hord-ish playstyle
  • provide good mercenaries to Europe
  • naval and land raids to the Steppe
  • liberation of slaves etc.
While Ruthenia could have more monarch-ish narrative and content.

For example, 1640s – 1650s Hetmanate under Bohdan Khmelnytskyi maps (all Ukraine-related cultures should be accepted, including Halychian, Volhynian, Polesian).
I'll don my nationalist hat here and ask for the Sich only (tier 2), with Hetmanate already represented by tier 3 Ruthenia.
Sich and Hetmanate are different entities. Hetman Khmelnitsky was a PLC noble who led "register" cossacks in revolt. The Sich are non-register cossacks led by atamans who insisted on independence from the hetman.

If debating Hetmanate vs Ruthenia, I reckon Livonia is a similar case. It's a singular formable regardless of who forms it: secular princes, bishops or republics.
 
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I'll don my nationalist hat here and ask for the Sich only (tier 2), with Hetmanate already represented by tier 3 Ruthenia.
Sich and Hetmanate are different entities. Hetman Khmelnitsky was a PLC noble who led "register" cossacks in revolt. The Sich are non-register cossacks led by atamans who insisted on independence from the hetman.

If debating Hetmanate vs Ruthenia, I reckon Livonia is a similar case. It's a singular formable regardless of who forms it: secular princes, bishops or republics.
No, if we have a look at 1648, Khmelnytskyi fled to the Mykytynska Sich and was elected as a Hetman there and strated the rebellion with Zaporozhian Cossacks. Then registered cossacks were sent by the Poles to counter the rebellion, but they agreed to join Kmelnytsky. And that was one of the main reasons for a significant first victory at Zhovti Vody.

What you describe like clashes between different types of cossacks was relevant after Khmelnytskyi at the period of 'Ukrainian ruine' or before the War.

Also Ruthenia represents the Kingdom of Ruthenia that existed actually as Galicia-Volhynia and the Hetmanate is another thing, that was created by the Kmelnytskyi rebellion. Yes, in worst they can be just represented by renaming. But as long as this is a dev diary on formable tags, the Hetmanate is much more historical from the game timeframe.
 
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Hi I know this is late but do you think the safavids could be added as a formable, they didn’t exist in the start date obviously but their Sufi order did, literally founded like right before start date by Safi-ad-din Ardabili.
 
Little bit confused by this list. I would expect every starting nation to be reformable if the tier requirements allow and they're not just personal fiefdoms, yet some are listed as if they're unique cases. For example, surely any duchy in a given realm could destroy and become any of the kingdoms?

Also is Africa the continent or Roman Africa? If it's the continent why's it only tier 2 compared to Europa's tier 5? For difficulty I understand, but it seems odd Africa could then form Europa, simply because it's a lower tier, yet they're both equivalent powers geographically. Perhaps there ought to be a united earth (an Empire Earth, if you will) for world conquesters. Think Akkadian's had a King of the Universe(alis). Silly yes, but since you're going there...
 
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