What about to make a bit improved design of DH map with some fixed mistakes?

[Rodolphe123]

so that's 360,000 people, it's less then '1 on-map-MP' out of Arkhangelsk area. As I wrote abobe, Ukhta province is OK, no need to change it.

I dont want to be an ass, but it is 1,300,000 inhabitants outside of Arkhangelsk, and around 300,000 in Arkhangelsk city. So it is more then 1 MP.

If that many people reside there, then a couple of army divisions would have to defend or to occupy it.

I suggest that you consult english and russian wikipedia pages about : Arkhangelsk Oblast (less Arkhangelsk) + Komi Republic + Nentes Autonomous Okrug

 

[Nick3210]

Leningrad never fell because it was supply via the Lake Ladoga.

Could you add a working port at Tikhvin, an divide Leningrad in two area in order to have a port on the east side of Leningrad ?

I know that Leningrad was supply mostly by trucks driving on Lake Ladoga during winter in reality, but my solution is maybe the most sensible one ?

Or, do you have another solution allowing supply of Leningrad while encircle ? At least during winter.

There is no need to change the design of the map for this (I try, if possible, not to make visual corrections to the map, so that mr. Vilochka does not break), it is enough just to connect Leningrad with Tikhvin, as it is done in my Mod, that's easy.

 

[Nick3210]

but it is 1,300,000 inhabitants outside of Arkhangelsk,

of course, we mean that many of them belong to the Arkhangelsk province, otherwise it is impossible to put 1 MP in Arkhangelsk. We mean that the province of Arkhangelsk is not only the city of Arkhangelsk, but also some surrounding territories.

 

[Rodolphe123]

of course, we mean that many of them belong to the Arkhangelsk province, otherwise it is impossible to put 1 MP in Arkhangelsk. We mean that the province of Arkhangelsk is not only the city of Arkhangelsk, but also some surrounding territories.

Ok, I will stop complaining about Ukhta.

 

[Rodolphe123]

There is no need to change the design of the map for this (I try, if possible, not to make visual corrections to the map, so that mr. Vilochka does not break), it is enough just to connect Leningrad with Tikhvin, as it is done in my Mod, that's easy.

View attachment 1272485

I have done the same thing once, but it is incomplete for me. You do know that they were small naval warfare in lake Ladoga during the war ? It could have been interesting to have finland and soviet ports there. I make many suggestions as a brainstorming, but I evidently do not expect that it will be necessarly implemented !

 

[tioperete]

Mr Tioperete,

Could you send a picture of proposed changes to allow Mr V. to evaluate it ?

 

[Nick3210]

Ok, I will stop complaining about Ukhta.

Also check borders of official Arkhangelsk Oblast - it include some other DH provinces - Sudostroy and Velsk.
Most of these 1,300,000 people of Arkhangelsk Oblast live there - in Arkhangelsk province and in this two southern DH provinces, not in wilderness Ukhta.

​

 

[Nick3210]

I have done the same thing once, but it is incomplete for me. You do know that they were small naval warfare in lake Ladoga during the war ? It could have been interesting to have finland and soviet ports there. I make many suggestions as a brainstorming, but I evidently do not expect that it will be necessarly implemented !

When I made the Caspian Sea navigable with ports, I encountered an unexpected problem in the behavior of AI when Italy from North Africa reached and occupied a province with a port in the Caspian Sea. Italian AI began to send all supply convoys only to this port on the Caspian Sea, completely ignoring all other territories in need of convoys. Despite the fact that Italy had a sufficient supply of convoys in order to supply all its isolated provinces.

When then I joined the Caspian Sea to the world ocean, this problem disappeared, and Italy's AI began to send convoys normally in all needed points. But we can't do that if we don't want to see battleships and aircraft carrier battles in the Caspian Sea and Ladoga.

I think the problem is that AI doesn't know how to work with such things like ports isolated from the World Ocean because this is not provided for the vanilla game.
Or may be I was not smart enough to make ports in the Caspian Sea so that they would work without causing problems for AI.
This is exactly the case that Mr. Rommel is talking about - when you introduce something fundamentally new, you need to be prepared that this may lead to the collapse of the game.

Therefore, unfortunately, I had to abandon the ports in the Caspian Sea and, accordingly, I think there can also be the same AI collapse in convoys in Ladoga ports, as it was with ports in Kaspian Sea.

But of course, anyone can try to do this, set ports in Ladoga (or also in Kaspian Sea), it's easy, and test the behavior of AI during the occupation of this port in relation to the proper operation of convoys. Who knows, maybe someone else will be able to do it so that it would work without problems.

 

[Rodolphe123]

When I made the Caspian Sea navigable with ports, I encountered an unexpected problem in the behavior of AI when Italy from North Africa reached and occupied a province with a port in the Caspian Sea. Italian AI began to send all supply convoys only to this port on the Caspian Sea, completely ignoring all other territories in need of convoys. Despite the fact that Italy had a sufficient supply of convoys in order to supply all its isolated provinces.

When then I joined the Caspian Sea to the world ocean, this problem disappeared, and Italy's AI began to send convoys normally in all needed points. But we can't do that if we don't want to see battleships and aircraft carrier battles in the Caspian Sea and Ladoga.

I think the problem is that AI doesn't know how to work with such things like ports isolated from the World Ocean because this is not provided for the vanilla game.
Or may be I was not smart enough to make ports in the Caspian Sea so that they would work without causing problems for AI.
This is exactly the case that Mr. Rommel is talking about - when you introduce something fundamentally new, you need to be prepared that this may lead to the collapse of the game.

Therefore, unfortunately, I had to abandon the ports in the Caspian Sea and, accordingly, I think there can also be the same AI collapse in convoys in Ladoga ports, as it was with ports in Kaspian Sea.

But of course, anyone can try to do this, set ports in Ladoga (or also in Kaspian Sea), it's easy, and test the behavior of AI during the occupation of this port in relation to the proper operation of convoys. Who knows, maybe someone else will be able to do it so that it would work without problems.

Well, thank you for the information. I will not try to implement it in this case. I'll keep the solution of an imaginary land connection to Leningrad...

 

[Lord Rommel]

[Maps deleted]

Based on @Rodolphe123 's concept and my own suggestion (and knowledge of my country ) I have tried a merge of both concepts and I got the result u can see above.

Changes:
- Ruhrgebiet - the province of all the Ruhr area towns like Duisburg, Essen, Gelsenkirchen, Bockum, Dortmund - and all the missing others.
- Düsseldorf has lost some parts. Its now "focused" to Düsseldorf-Wuppertal-Leverkusen area.
- Neuwied is new/reborn. In connection with Cologne there is no the famous "Remage passage" (and the southern Rhine river crossings). The design allows for the historical southern passing of the Ruhr pocket area and it should fit to the old Reichsautobahn Köln-Frankfurt that was a main army route for the Wehrmacht.
- Rosenheim is added to get a "german" Alp fortress province and to get the historical passage of the southern alps crossing from Rosenheim to Salzburg or the northern route from Landshut to Linz plus its fitting to the geograohical situation with the "Passau gap".
- Chemnitz was added to get the Erzgebirge into the map without changing the boarder between east and west germany.
- Zossen was added for the southern passing of Berlin and to get in the forrest area the Wehrmacht used to hide units during the last days of the war. The area was used by germans to "trickle" into the west.
- Rostock-Frankfurt an der Order area reworked:
> Stettin was added for the historical boarder with an adjustment to the River Oder.
> Neubrandenburg was added.
> Schwerin was added.
>> Adding both provinces is allowing more movement in the north for a more flexible troop movement when needed. With the Stettin province and its forrest u have a more "defensive province" in the line allowing the defender to retreat to the west when needed.
- Stargard added to split Kolberg and Stargard.
> Kolberg can be turned into a pocket now. Stargard is now a sort of "crossroad" to keep the second attacking path into Frankfurt an der Oder AND to allow a coutnerattack from 2 provinces by western units INTO Stargard. Kolberg is now the "coastal province". Stolpe had lost some territories in exchange.
- Braunschweig was added to get in the industrial area that saw a sort of height before ww2 when Wolfsburg was founded as a new industrial area. Later the area turned into a military production area with Volkswagen and other companies building weapons here.

My 2 cents.

 

[Nick3210]

(and knowledge of my country )

I certainly trust your suggestion, so when we get to Germany, I will definitely get carefully acquainted with the map of Germany and all these suggestions.

I already have ideas where to steal donor IDs in order to add the necessary provinces - from British Sakhara and Japanese windowed islands ))
The British and Japanese will pay with their lands to improve Germany!

 

[Rodolphe123]

View attachment 1272638
Based on @Rodolphe123 's concept and my own suggestion (and knowledge of my country ) I have tried a merge of both concepts and I got the result u can see above.

Changes:
- Ruhrgebiet - the province of all the Ruhr area towns like Duisburg, Essen, Gelsenkirchen, Bockum, Dortmund - and all the missing others.
- Düsseldorf has lost some parts. Its now "focused" to Düsseldorf-Wuppertal-Leverkusen area.
- Neuwied is new/reborn. In connection with Cologne there is no the famous "Remage passage" (and the southern Rhine river crossings). The design allows for the historical southern passing of the Ruhr pocket area and it should fit to the old Reichsautobahn Köln-Frankfurt that was a main army route for the Wehrmacht.
- Rosenheim is added to get a "german" Alp fortress province and to get the historical passage of the southern alps crossing from Rosenheim to Salzburg or the northern route from Landshut to Linz plus its fitting to the geograohical situation with the "Passau gap".
- Chemnitz was added to get the Erzgebirge into the map without changing the boarder between east and west germany.
- Zossen was added for the southern passing of Berlin and to get in the forrest area the Wehrmacht used to hide units during the last days of the war. The area was used by germans to "trickle" into the west.
- Rostock-Frankfurt an der Order area reworked:
> Stettin was added for the historical boarder with an adjustment to the River Oder.
> Neubrandenburg was added.
> Schwerin was added.
>> Adding both provinces is allowing more movement in the north for a more flexible troop movement when needed. With the Stettin province and its forrest u have a more "defensive province" in the line allowing the defender to retreat to the west when needed.
- Stargard added to split Kolberg and Stargard.
> Kolberg can be turned into a pocket now. Stargard is now a sort of "crossroad" to keep the second attacking path into Frankfurt an der Oder AND to allow a coutnerattack from 2 provinces by western units INTO Stargard. Kolberg is now the "coastal province". Stolpe had lost some territories in exchange.
- Braunschweig was added to get in the industrial area that saw a sort of height before ww2 when Wolfsburg was founded as a new industrial area. Later the area turned into a military production area with Volkswagen and other companies building weapons here.

My 2 cents.

Lord Rommel,

This is very interesting.

I have only a problem with Wilhemshaven. In case of an amphibious invasion in Wilhemshaven, the allied would automatically controls a vast territory deep in northern Germany.

It is not realistic that in case of a naval invasion such a deep penetration would happen right away in a heavily populated country. Also, there would be 6 or 7 provinces around Wilhemshaven in case of an occupation by pesky US, British, Canadian troops. For game play purpose, it is not good.

It is why I did separate that province. It is my humble opinion.

Do you have any comment on my propositions about East Prussia and Poland ?

In reality East Prussia was like this :

(but for gameplay purpose I suggest to divide it in 4 provinces - to avoid attacking bonus against Allenstein)

 

[Lord Rommel]

I certainly trust your suggestion, so when we get to Germany, I will definitely get carefully acquainted with the map of Germany and all these suggestions.

I already have ideas where to steal donor IDs in order to add the necessary provinces - from British Sakhara and Japanese windowed islands ))
The British and Japanese will pay with their lands to improve Germany!

To be fair I think u can steal provinces from more areas. Egypt e.g. 786 and 791 could be merged. Same story for 1006 and 1007. Perhaps these are provinces more relevant to ww1 or the isrealian-egypt war. Perhaps I'm not that familiar with the area in terms of the 2 wars.

And to the trust level: The irony of being a german: ask another german and he/she would cut german provinces different.
I looked for classic travel routes, historical "battles routes", infrastructure, culutral or industrial relevance and/or military relevance.
That is e.g. the reason why I "insist" to the Sauerland/Siegen gap. It is a sort of "black hole" till today causing many traffic problems in the entire region.

Lord Rommel,

This is very interesting.

I have only a problem with Wilhemshaven. In case of an amphibious invasion in Wilhemshaven, the allied would automatically controls a vast territory deep in northern Germany.

It is not realistic that in case of a naval invasion such a deep penetration would happen right away in a heavily populated country. Also, there would be 6 or 7 provinces around Wilhemshaven in case of an occupation by pesky US, British, Canadian troops. For game play purpose, it is not good.

It is why I did separate that province. It is my humble opinion.

Do you have any comment on my propositions about East Prussia and Poland ?

[...]

The fun fact is that the area of Wilhelmshaven-Osnabrück is one of the less populated german areas. Its just flat land withou major obstacles and/or large urban centers.
So when needed the province could be cutted. On the other side I have doubts that u could perform a ww2 naval landing in the area. The martime conditions would be extreme even for ww2 standards.

For the eastern prussian provinces; It can be done like u have suggested. I'm not sure about 6 connections for Königsberg because it would render any fortress close to useless because of the large ammount of attacking provinces.

Oh by the way: when needed Goch can be renamed to Kleve. Both names will work.

 

[Rodolphe123]

I certainly trust your suggestion, so when we get to Germany, I will definitely get carefully acquainted with the map of Germany and all these suggestions.

I already have ideas where to steal donor IDs in order to add the necessary provinces - from British Sakhara and Japanese windowed islands ))
The British and Japanese will pay with their lands to improve Germany!

The Fatherland will be happy !

 

[Rodolphe123]

To be fair I think u can steal provinces from more areas. Egypt e.g. 786 and 791 could be merged. Same story for 1006 and 1007. Perhaps these are provinces more relevant to ww1 or the isrealian-egypt war. Perhaps I'm not that familiar with the area in terms of the 2 wars.

And to the trust level: The irony of being a german: ask another german and he/she would cut german provinces different.
I looked for classic travel routes, historical "battles routes", infrastructure, culutral or industrial relevance and/or military relevance.
That is e.g. the reason why I "insist" to the Sauerland/Siegen gap. It is a sort of "black hole" till today causing many traffic problems in the entire region.



The fun fact is that the area of Wilhelmshaven-Osnabrück is one of the less populated german areas. Its just flat land withou major obstacles and/or large urban centers.
So when needed the province could be cutted. On the other side I have doubts that u could perform a ww2 naval landing in the area. The martime conditions would be extreme even for ww2 standards.

For the eastern prussian provinces; It can be done like u have suggested. I'm not sure about 6 connections for Königsberg because it would render any fortress close to useless because of the large ammount of attacking provinces.

Oh by the way: when needed Goch can be renamed to Kleve. Both names will work.

The sole remaining problem is that in Wilhelmshaven there is a beach, and that 6 or 7 provinces are connected to that province. It is bad for gameplay purpose.

 

[Lord Rommel]

The sole remaining problem is that in Wilhelmshaven there is a beach, and that 6 or 7 provinces are connected to that province. It is bad for gameplay purpose.

So your Oldenburg adding would solve it with its 8 connections?
I guess the question is: what sort of design would be needed?

 

[Nick3210]

To be fair I think u can steal provinces from more areas. Egypt e.g. 786 and 791 could be merged. Same story for 1006 and 1007. Perhaps these are provinces more relevant to ww1 or the isrealian-egypt war. Perhaps I'm not that familiar with the area in terms of the 2 wars.

Initially, I did not plan such a large addition of provinces, and so I was sure that I would have enough donor IDs that I could get by combining unnecessary provinces.
But since I see that there is a request for a large number of new provinces, I now want to understand to what extent my fear of exceeding the vanilla amount is justified.

Is there any reliable information that modders are allowed to increase the number of provinces more than the vanilla map has and this will not cause any negative effects?

I asked this question to the Vilochka too, let's see what he answers. It's just that maybe I'm being overly cautious and maybe exceeding the vanilla number of provinces is not dangerous. I don't know anything about this issue, so I would like to get information from knowledgeable people - whether it is possible to exceed without any bad effects or not.

On the other hand, at the first stage, following the principle that 'in order to add a new province, you need to remove an unnecessary one' is also very useful, this principle motivates you to look for unnecessary redundant provinces and delete them, which is good for the map and gameplay.

 

[Rodolphe123]

So your Oldenburg adding would solve it with its 8 connections?
I guess the question is: what sort of design would be needed?

Lord Rommel, my solution is indeed worst.

Here is my proposition (To add Lingen to Wilhelmshaven):

For East Prussia and Poland:

- For East Prussia, I would change the provinces borders to reduce a little bit the connections with Koenigsberg (no connection to Danzig or to Gumbinnen)

- For Poland I would add only Plock or Plonsk to reduce the madness

What do you think of these two propositions ?

 

[Rodolphe123]

Initially, I did not plan such a large addition of provinces, and so I was sure that I would have enough donor IDs that I could get by combining unnecessary provinces.
But since I see that there is a request for a large number of new provinces, I now want to understand to what extent my fear of exceeding the vanilla amount is justified.

Is there any reliable information that modders are allowed to increase the number of provinces more than the vanilla map has and this will not cause any negative effects?

I asked this question to the Vilochka too, let's see what he answers. It's just that maybe I'm being overly cautious and maybe exceeding the vanilla number of provinces is not dangerous. I don't know anything about this issue, so I would like to get information from knowledgeable people - whether it is possible to exceed without any bad effects or not.

On the other hand, at the first stage, following the principle that 'in order to add a new province, you need to remove an unnecessary one' is also very useful, this principle motivates you to look for unnecessary redundant provinces and delete them, which is good for the map and gameplay.

I will make additionnal proposals for Japan and Australia, and after we could lauch an investigation to kill unnecessary provinces ?

 

[tioperete]

I think exceeding the number its not a problem per se.

But when I did event revision for prov ids for novapaddy dh in e3fn mod, I saw the same problem in every handsoff game I played to check the prov ids working correctly.
It was constant encirclement and destruction of units. Germany was constantly loosing fast units in the soviet front. Soviets encircled themselves in counterattacks. DH ai behavior is not prepared for a much bigger map.