Zones; what is good, what needs to be fixed before 4.0

[Anemic Witch]

The correct decision here is to update districts for 4.0, leaving it much-improved from 3.14 with better growth mechanics and reduced lag.

Yes. Stellaris already supports having lots of different types of districts even if you need to install UI mods for them to be shown properly. And it already somewhat follows the design of districts giving the resource jobs while buildings upgrade them (except for science and unity for whatever reason). New zones system just makes so you can only build these buildings in a corresponding zone instead of all building slots being essentially a wild-card. Instead of pushing for zones they could add a requirement to have N amount of resource district before you can build corresponding upgrade building and introduce new buildings that can, for example, upgrade the amount of workers that can work in 1 district while adding rare resource maintenance cost.

 

[ShaTiK]

The correct decision here is to update districts for 4.0

Considering the scope of changes to POPs and an entirely new civilian system (and by the way, are we going to ignore that particular elephant in the room - new strata that currently serves no purpose and devs themselves said they haven't yet zeroed in on what they what from it??) this seems a very reasonable move. Update the balance and numbers and that's it. Yes, we would not be fixing any issues with current building system and we would be pushing the fix into the future. On a flip side, we can iron out new POP system and civilians. And by the time we get these two properly working - then we can start steadily tackling planetary management.

Personally I think they can ship current zone system, with a pretty large caveat of them slapping zones on top of separate buildable districts. The issue is that even players on this thread had a lot of different ideas as to how to better implement zones , I count at least 5 different detailed proposals (one them even my own) and quite a few less detailed ones. Figuring out how exactly to do it, implementing it and having first balance pass on it - that's a lot of stuff to do in a month. All of it to say, it isn't impossible to make zones work if the lead makes the commanding decision to go with some variation on the aforementioned proposals right now. I'm pretty sure they had same brainstorming session in-house so it's not like we came up with ideas devs themselves haven't considered in some form. But then who is to say that this proposed system would be any better - nobody would have any chance of testing it out properly, be it devs, testers or players. It might be really good, it might be okay, it might be ever worse than current zones.

If it were up to me, then sure, I would just go with my own personal version, it doesn't seem to be that difficult to implement both of art or code sides. But that's the thing, this is my own idea, of course I think it is the best thing ever. I'm pretty sure the same goes to other posters in this thread as well. But to actually figure out whether a particular proposal is a good system, the same system or the worse system compared to current actual game version, you need testing and prototyping. Also you need input from real developers so they can weigh in and say what can be done easily, what is difficult and what is outright impossible due to some limitations. After you get this prototype, you get people to test it, to play with it. Not only that, you make prototype for another two alternative versions of rework. Finally you compare the lot and go from there. None of it is possible for enthusiastic players on forums, we can only voice our ideas and try to imagine how would they work in-game.

So, yeah. Better to postpone planetary management rework altogether. Any other way is too drastic and frankly unnecessary. We are getting POP rework and new strata, that's pretty big. Limit yourself to this and players would be happy to reduce lag and add some spice into game. Pour half-baked zones into the mix and you ruin everything for no good reason. Not that it would be unsalvageable, just months of patches, a bunch of negative reviews on steam (for once not from crazed ccp funded morons), hundreds of pages of heated forum discussions and tons of stress for the devs. Is it worth it?

 

[Mike Louis]

I agree with @ShaTiK with the devs focusing on getting the new POP system and civilians ironed out for the 4.0 patch release. Zones as a mechanic needs at minimum a couple of more months in the oven via beta testing (ideally on the standard galaxy settings) before it’s implemented into the game as the devs themselves stated that they intend to expand on the concept of zones. Until then, the 3.14 planet management mechanics need to remain with the just POP rework added in.

 

[Aurelio123]

I count at least 5 different detailed proposals (one them even my own) and quite a few less detailed ones

If at least 5 different people are writing fanfiction about how your game should be made instead I think the devs did something wrong.

 

[tappi]

If at least 5 different people are writing fanfiction about how your game should be made instead I think the devs did something wrong.

So any game with 5 or more mods is doing something wrong?

 

[-Marauder-]

So any game with 5 or more mods is doing something wrong?

What a terrible comparison.

 

[tappi]

What a terrible comparison.

So was the original message.

 

[Bayes]

Districts are boring

 

[herculeanus]

This is what worries me the most. I get that Developers can't fully listen to the community about everything. The community is not made up of all game developers and often times throw out impractical ideas. It's a fine line to walk between listening to good constructive feedback and ignoring unhelpful noise. My fear is that Zones will be rammed through in it's current state in a way that is technically playable but not very fun.

The other thing that really worries me is what internal testing looks like. Watching the Developer Live Streams is interesting because I've yet to see them actually play the game. They usually go in, open up the console to give themselves cheats and then just show off some things they think are cool. But I've yet to see them really sit down and actually play the game for a long period of time and talk about it while doing so so we can see their thoughts and reactions to some common problems players are bringing up. I don't know if this is deliberate because they do recognize the issues and are afraid of those showing up during a stream or if they are remaining somewhat oblivious to it all. This is in stark contrast to something like the Age of Wonders 4 Developers Live Stream where the two Developers actually play through the game the way a player would to show things off.

This change, more than any other that Stellaris has had, has felt more like it's being implemented on a whim by the Developers because someone wanted to make a change, and not because the game needed it or because it's improving upon a neglected aspect of the game. The idea is very obviously not fully developed considering the state the Beta was released in, but someone in the chain of command seemed intent on getting this in as quickly as possible regardless of how much more time it needed in the oven.

Instead, they're throwing it into the beta so we can test this mess.
And for what? What are these changes supposed to improve?
Performance? This doesn't require a zone/planet overhaul. This could have been achieved with a good pops system.
Less complexity and easier for beginners? Definitely not! It's made the game significantly more complex and illogical. My brother is still a beginner at this game. I was able to convince him about Stellaris about half a year ago. He enjoys playing the game now. He's also tested the beta and is completely overwhelmed by the new system. It's much more complex than before. He (just like me) is having absolutely no fun with this new system.
So, fun isn't what justifies this change.
Is this supposed to help the AI? The AI is completely overwhelmed by this system. Nations are destroyed by it in every test. No AI nation was able to become strong in the tests.
So this change basically serves no purpose. Or have I missed something? It just makes it more complicated, more annoying, more labor-intensive, more micromanaged and more illogical.

 

[-Marauder-]

So this change basically serves no purpose. Or have I missed something? It just makes it more complicated, more annoying, more labor-intensive, more micromanaged and more illogical.

It's change for the sake of changing things mostly. And so they "could maybe potentially possibly but very unlikely" do something with it in the future at some point. Maybe, if they get any ideas what to do with it. Which they currently don't have.

Someone on the discord compared this to YAGNI. Which I think applies here fairly well. Except they don't even have any idea what to do with it, nor any clue what they want to do with it.

 

[Critical Ethics]

Maybe there is some communication lapse here. If you have a planet with alloy zone and unity zone

Why would you do this though

 

[Critical Ethics]

I don't want to offend anyone but it is almost like a lot of people that defend current zone implementation haven't tried to play the game properly.

I don't want to offend anyone but it is almost like a lot of people that oppose current zone implementation played it for an hour in 3.9.1, decided they hated it, and haven't opened the game since.

Spoiler

The two sides of "do they disagree with me? No, that's Literally Impossible" in one post+quote.

That was the joke, yes. I may have been too subtle.

Spoiler

But it's funny because it's true

 

[Thiend]

I don't want to offend anyone but it is almost like a lot of people that oppose current zone implementation played it for an hour in 3.9.1, decided they hated it, and haven't opened the game since.

The two sides of "do they disagree with me? No, that's Literally Impossible" in one post+quote.

 

[Tisifoni12]

Does this make me want to go back to Stellaris ?
Am I excited by the changes ?

Not so far, but it's still in development . . .

 

[ShaTiK]

I don't want to offend anyone but it is almost like a lot of people that oppose current zone implementation played it for an hour in 3.9.1, decided they hated it, and haven't opened the game since.

Spoiler

That was the joke, yes. I may have been too subtle.

Spoiler

But it's funny because it's true

You are entitled to your own opinion, obviously. And I can't say for everyone, but I put 12 hours into this test spread over all 5 versions. So that.
And you did "offend anyone". In fact you offhandedly offended pretty much everyone here, by implying that everyone here who voiced their concerns with zone system and offered some form of solution - all of these people don't know what they are talking about.
So, with all due respect - Go To Frolic Outside, mate.

If you have valid points defending current implementation - share them. They might be valid, that's the point of sharing opinions, people get tunnel vision pretty hard at times. Just don't go around crying 'everybody is wrong' if people don't agree with you or your points. They might be valid to you, but not to others.

 

[Iadria]

I am not in love with Zones right now, and Steam says I've done just a hair under 30 hours in the last two weeks across a couple of empires. I think they're *okay*, I guess, but I'm not that excited about them and I don't like the way they constrain planetary development in really arbitrary-feeling ways. Like, I AM this empire, I am the sum of its hopes and fears and aspirations, I am the spirit of ages and the motive force giving shape to its ambitions. If some pencil pusher tries to tell me I can't use this empty building slot for a research building because it's zoned for consumer goods, I am going to put them in the torment nexus.

I think some of my problems with Zones would be solved if they had all of the tooltips or UI in place for them. Right now, there are a ton of rakes conveniently laid out for you to step on, and all of the tooltips are WAY out of whack. Every choice I make about the city districts and their accompanying zones feels like a guess with a lot of consequences that aren't described at all, and I which I think is a big source of friction that hopefully won't be there in the finished product. I think the rural districts/zones are in a fine place though, I guess? And also, finishing the UI stuff will also help make it more clear which behaviors (e.g. Temples can't go in Unity zones) are bugs and which are intentional, and once we have a clear spec we can start arguing about that instead of making up a system in our heads to get mad at.

I'm overall lukewarm on Zones qua Zones; I don't really care for them but I'm willing to accept that something like this is the future of planet design and I think that might end up being fine. But I'm really not sold on them as being so critical that they need to get rushed out at the same time as the pop rework AND a major expansion. I think that trying to hit all of that, all at once, is going to make for a very rough and unready-feeling launch. I would love to be wrong about this, and if I am I'll be the first one to admit it.

 

[Thiend]

You are entitled to your own opinion, obviously. And I can't say for everyone, but I put 12 hours into this test spread over all 5 versions. So that.
And you did "offend anyone". In fact you offhandedly offended pretty much everyone here, by implying that everyone here who voiced their concerns with zone system and offered some form of solution - all of these people don't know what they are talking about.
So, with all due respect - Go To Frolic Outside, mate.

If you have valid points defending current implementation - share them. They might be valid, that's the point of sharing opinions, people get tunnel vision pretty hard at times. Just don't go around crying 'everybody is wrong' if people don't agree with you or your points. They might be valid to you, but not to others.

This isn't the only "obviously you haven't actually played the beta/experienced that problem" post they've made. The last one was a demand that I provide screenshots, a burden of proof curiously not upheld for any of their posts defending Zones.

Zones aren't good, and rushing to their defense isn't going to make them better or force people to like them. So far, I've not seen hardly anyone defending Zones who actually has a reason they're good - they only claim the reasons they aren't are invalid.

 

[Newbee53]

Zones aren't good, and rushing to their defense isn't going to make them better or force people to like them. So far, I've not seen anyone defending Zones who actually has a reason they're good - they only claim the reasons they aren't are invalid.

I feel like I've written this out dozens of times, though I don't think it's all been in the same place. But here are why I enjoy zones far more than the old system. These are all opinions, obviously. But they are my reasons.

1. They provide far more interesting choices than the old system. I feel like whatever zones I build on a new colony world is important enough to actually think about. Even though I know I can go back and change latter.
2. They are far better at characterizing a planet than the old system. it takes little effort to know what is going on, I can see it at a glance. Even mixed planets are clear thanks to zones easily enough.
3. Buildings are more interesting, because they are more limited. As I can't build everything on a planet, I can and have built different buildings on different planets with the same zones. further characterizing different planets.
4. The game no longer feels like its punishing you for building mixed planets. I can't put my finger on exactly every contributor to this feeling. But its there. Known reasons include the way zones are unlocked spreading them across more time and that you get all of a mixed planet's upgrades all at once. Together this just feels like a nice upgrade.
5. Civilians allow you to buffer unemployment and eliminate the need to build something new every time a new pop fills the last job or becomes unemployed. This just make the entire system more relaxed and makes it easier to take your time enjoying the game. it fits in with zones because of how city districts work. without civilians they would be unmanageable, and without large increases in jobs civilians would feel a lot worse than the current vibes they give off.

These reasons aren't meant to convince anyone, because they are major contributors to why I find zones fun. In fact, I've only been defending zones because so the 'zones are terrible' arguments all seem so limited and often alien to me at all. It's like we are playing different games, and I don't get it

 

[Critical Ethics]

You are entitled to your own opinion, obviously. And I can't say for everyone, but I put 12 hours into this test spread over all 5 versions. So that.
And you did "offend anyone". In fact you offhandedly offended pretty much everyone here, by implying that everyone here who voiced their concerns with zone system and offered some form of solution - all of these people don't know what they are talking about.
So, with all due respect - Go To Frolic Outside, mate.

If you have valid points defending current implementation - share them. They might be valid, that's the point of sharing opinions, people get tunnel vision pretty hard at times. Just don't go around crying 'everybody is wrong' if people don't agree with you or your points. They might be valid to you, but not to others.

...OK for real, did nobody actually read the post I originally quoted. This is seriously bizarre.

This isn't the only "obviously you haven't actually played the beta/experienced that problem" post they've made. The last one was a demand that I provide screenshots, a burden of proof curiously not upheld for any of their posts defending Zones.

No, I asked you to post screenshots of the scenarios you were vaguely describing so I could point out the obvious solutions you were overlooking whenever they arose in practice. I never claimed or intended to imply that you hadn't played the beta in several patches.

 

[Thiend]

I feel like I've written this out dozens of times, though I don't think it's all been in the same place. But here are why I enjoy zones far more than the old system. These are all opinions, obviously. But they are my reasons.

1. They provide far more interesting choices than the old system. I feel like whatever zones I build on a new colony world is important enough to actually think about. Even though I know I can go back and change latter.
2. They are far better at characterizing a planet than the old system. it takes little effort to know what is going on, I can see it at a glance. Even mixed planets are clear thanks to zones easily enough.

This is decent, but it's not good enough to justify the downgrades in other areas. This is why I wish they would just put Zones in another beta to try to get them right, because they aren't good enough currently.

1. Buildings are more interesting, because they are more limited. As I can't build everything on a planet, I can and have built different buildings on different planets with the same zones. further characterizing different planets.
2. The game no longer feels like its punishing you for building mixed planets. I can't put my finger on exactly every contributor to this feeling. But its there. Known reasons include the way zones are unlocked spreading them across more time and that you get all of a mixed planet's upgrades all at once. Together this just feels like a nice upgrade.
3. Civilians allow you to buffer unemployment and eliminate the need to build something new every time a new pop fills the last job or becomes unemployed. This just make the entire system more relaxed and makes it easier to take your time enjoying the game. it fits in with zones because of how city districts work. without civilians they would be unmanageable, and without large increases in jobs civilians would feel a lot worse than the current vibes they give off.

These reasons aren't meant to convince anyone, because they are major contributors to why I find zones fun. In fact, I've only been defending zones because so the 'zones are terrible' arguments all seem so limited and often alien to me at all. It's like we are playing different games, and I don't get it

This is actually the core problem. You've listed things I agree are good... precisely zero of which require Zones, and with exception to 3 and/or 1 (it renumbered them when I split the quote) have nothing to do with Zones at all. I could and have come up with a system to duplicate the Zone/Building interaction without them in a matter of a minute (give each building a type, limit 3 per type, optionally require at least [% of planetary maximum] districts of [relevant type] be built before buildings become available).

A lot of the people arguing for Zones genuinely aren't thinking about what Zones do in the new system, yourself included and I don't mean that as an insult. It's a core consequence of the beta having so many things feature-crept into one bundle. The things you can solidly identify as good ARE GOOD. I like them too. Workforce is good (and good for performance). I don't mind civilians, although they could use some polish. I like using multiple unique buildings with job modifiers to customize my planets. None of those are actually positives for Zones.