Zones; what is good, what needs to be fixed before 4.0

[tappi]

Still, the slots attached to districts dictate some sort of player choice and railroad us into building the same buff buildings in each district everywhere—because where is the drawback to having a purification plant on each planet with at least one mining district when the slot is free?

Yeah to have this be more meaningful they would have to implement more buildings, which as I've understood is the plan, but it remains to be seen what gets added and what effects they will have. They're clearly still experimenting how the buildings work and what they should do.

 

[Newbee53]

Choice. Current system doesn't give you fine control and choice, it actively takes it away.

But you do have those choices, right when you build the planet. You don't get that choice every time you upgrade it, but that makes the choice of 'mono-product' or 'mixed-product' more impactful and longer term. But I guess I can understand that you don't like where it is moved to. I do, I guess. or don't find it bad, and like related things that come with.

 

[tappi]

I don't want to offend anyone but it is almost like a lot of people that defend current zone implementation haven't tried to play the game properly.

Again, don't want to sound arrogant, but I did. And the housing/amenities/output balancing is a cruel joke. You just don't balance things.

Housing cannot be balanced because it is linked to city district level, regardless how many zones you have.
Amenities can't be balanced period, you just know that +5k pop planet would have only 2 zones of your choosing, the third would either a urban zone filled with luxury housing or amenities zone that would overproduce then without manual control.
Outputs cannot be mixed, if you want your economy to reach the numbers you want - so every planet becomes mono output. And building-wise you plaster the planet with every unique zone buildings and fill the rest with Tier 1.

You can make this system work currently. Turn planets into mono producers, place amenities zone for big planets, bitterly laugh at abundance of empty housing estate while trying to forget how bad housing is IRL. But I cannot fathom how this is defendable. Parts of new system - for sure, I like some parts myself. But not this.

And the way system is currently built - it won't ever allow for proper balance. You just can't do it. You can throw stuff and it would somewhat work. Is this the design goal?...

I don't really get this criticism. I've played multiple games through to the endgame in versions 3.99.3-3.99.5 and find amenities to currently be a non issue. Not a single time have I build an amenities zone on a planet, especially since they haven't existed in the game since 99.3. Luxury apartments (and their upgrade) produce more amenities than most planets can consume and only take a single building slot. Yes, this does currently make the government zone on almost every planet admin, luxury, ascencion specific in building layout, but the devs have also already stated multiple times that amenities are being reworked

Housing balance is honestly a non issue to me, it hasn't really ever been a limiting factor on planets, even in 3.14 and earlier, and to me feels like is there just to give an upper limit to citizens.

Sorry, I think this is a bit rambly, running on low sleep.

 

[tappi]

Especially with the new job numbers that were put out in todays patch, the cityzone producing too many jobs issue doesn't seem to really be a thing anymore, except on one thing that I would love to have dev output on more. Currently you can get motes/gas/crystals from each planets farming/mining/electric districts, but I've been assuming that this is a temporary situation, and those buildings will be limited to planets with modifiers for those, and thus been running the artificial production buildings, and if I had to agree that there is one thing that feels bad here its the production of those. As they're attached to your alloy/CG production you essentially have to dedicate a planet for their production, but you also can't upgrade the city districts on that planet or you'll increase the amount of alloy/cg production, dramatically increasing the production of gas/motes/alloys and simultaneously eating all of your mineral production.

I'm dearly hoping that the current production of those is temporary and they'll get their own zones or similar later on.

And as I'm writing this I remember I could've just limited the amount of jobs on the planet I produce them on, as to not overproduce them. Oh well, they still should have a more elegant solution.

 

[Tisifoni12]

Underwhelmed by the last mini update. Awaiting further revelations . . .

 

[NorseGod]

Underwhelmed by the last mini update. Awaiting further revelations . . .

Note: per the last Dev Stream, the last Open Beta update will be on Tuesday, as they will be folding the 3.99.x build with the new Biogenisis build to tweak and bug fix before 4.0.

This is basically it.

 

[-Marauder-]

Note: per the last Dev Stream, the last Open Beta update will be on Tuesday, as they will be folding the 3.99.x build with the new Biogenisis build to tweak and bug fix before 4.0.

This is basically it.

Which is, not good. At all. The current system is, not done by any means and feel more like a proof of concept rather than something that should take over for the existing system.

 

[Thiend]

Which is, not good. At all. The current system is, not done by any means and feel more like a proof of concept rather than something that should take over for the existing system.

It's POSSIBLE that they'll fix my problems with the beta in that patch and the actual release, but highly unlikely.

They should not have announced a release date until the design itself was good. They should have kept development at a pace that would allow QA, as they said they would.

 No points for acknowledging that rushed releases were a problem, pledging to fix it, cutting from 4 to 3 releases to enable fixing it, and then rushing the very next release anyway completely unnecessarily.

If this works out, it won't be because they made the changes they needed to and said they would after last year. It will be in spite of them NOT making those changes at all. The patch Tuesday could leave us broadly happy with the system. But I don't know that, and neither do they, so planning on that with no time for adjustment if it doesn't is just not good.

 

[-Marauder-]

It's POSSIBLE that they'll fix my problems with the beta in that patch and the actual release, but highly unlikely.

They should not have announced a release date until the design itself was good. They should have kept development at a pace that would allow QA, as they said they would.

 No points for acknowledging that rushed releases were a problem, pledging to fix it, cutting from 4 to 3 releases to enable fixing it, and then rushing the very next release anyway completely unnecessarily.

If this works out, it won't be because they made the changes they needed to and said they would after last year. It will be in spite of them NOT making those changes at all. The patch Tuesday could leave us broadly happy with the system. But I don't know that, and neither do they, so planning on that with no time for adjustment if it doesn't is just not good.

I also think they shouldn't have tried to change so much all at once. Especially under these circumstances. Rather than having gradual change and working on one system after another.

 

[Newbee53]

Not responding to anyone specific for once, weird.

From the way the devs are talking, they do think the foundational features are working as intended. Suggesting they see balance and bug fixes as the main thing left. I base this on dev dairies, announced release dates, and information from the stream. Its very likely they consider tying zones to city districts a feature and a good thing. That their attempts to fix the problems have been focused on making the number of jobs swing less seems to indicate breaking the zones into their own districts aren't considered an option.

For that reason, I don't think they would agree that there is so much work to do. And thus, announcing the release date will not be seen as a 'huge problem' in house.

 

[Thiend]

I also think they shouldn't have tried to change so much all at once. Especially under these circumstances. Rather than having gradual change and working on one system after another.

They could and should have staggered the changes.

Change the job and pop numbers, because that will actually matter with Biogenesis. Probably making all buildings unique too, but without adding any new ones yet. More district types. Possibly restrict total buildings a little so you won't have all of them everywhere.

I refuse to engage with the red herring that adding more district types would be a ton of work. Just add one page in planet view for districts only with all the types.

Subsequent to the 4.0 release, they THEN could have tried a Zones beta. It would have had months before the next release, which is to say plenty of time to make it work well, and as it would include nothing else there wouldn't be any reason at all to keep if it they couldn't make it work. There still isn't, it's more work to make Zones work than to make every other part of this system work without them from right now, but even less.

IF the system as adjusted then made mixed output work better, THEN they could have tried the new trade system after that. The trade system as of now is based on the assumption that mixed output planets are more of an option. This assumption is currently false.

The trade rework assumes the economic rework made mixed output viable, which it didn't. The economic rework assumes Zones have helped, which they don't (hinder, actually, at the moment). The Zone system assumes districts wouldn't work as well, which is so far true EXCLUSIVELY for Betharian, which is a problem introduced in this very same beta.

It's like setting a bomb and then pretending you saved everyone when you defuse it too. Betharian is a problem because of the beta making it a Zone. Zones are necessary because the Betharian Zone doesn't work without them. So just make it a building doing the exact same thing and then try it as a Zone later, in a Zone beta.

This is all hypothetical, because that's obviously not happening, but it's what they should have done instead of this. If they didn't have enough time to do proper QA, stop the feature-creep and keep it to just the pop granularity, workforce and performance improvements.

 

[tappi]

Note: per the last Dev Stream, the last Open Beta update will be on Tuesday, as they will be folding the 3.99.x build with the new Biogenisis build to tweak and bug fix before 4.0.

This is basically it.

Yea, this is it in terms of beta versions, but the systems are still not locked down, they'll continue working on them until release (which granted, isn't a lot of time) and showing progress on the weekly thursday streams.

I do get the concern tho.

 

[Thiend]

Yea, this is it in terms of beta versions, but the systems are still not locked down, they'll continue working on them until release (which granted, isn't a lot of time) and showing progress on the weekly thursday streams.

I do get the concern tho.

The problem is the design itself is still not that good, so they're going to have to change it. But they won't have beta feedback about what they change, so we're just going to be left with whatever they land on until AT LEAST after 4.0.

Experience (sometimes known as "the tile->pop rework") tells me that we'll get another beta to address the problems the Zone system leaves us with some time in the 2030s. I would love to be wrong, but as we still have no acknowledgement that they need to do more work on Cosmic Storms I doubt I am.

 

[tappi]

The problem is the design itself is still not that good, so they're going to have to change it. But they won't have beta feedback about what they change, so we're just going to be left with whatever they land on until AT LEAST after 4.0.

Experience (sometimes known as "the tile->pop rework") tells me that we'll get another beta to address the problems the Zone system leaves us with some time in the 2030s. I would love to be wrong, but as we still have no acknowledgement that they need to do more work on Cosmic Storms I doubt I am.

I mean I personally enjoy the new system and they do have internal play testers as well.

Yeah the system will get constantly tweaked as it's been for the entire life of the game. This change is also *a lot* smaller than the og tile -> pop change. Most issues boil down to building effects, number tweaks and UI problems. Cosmic storms do feel awful though and I do agree they should address that at least somehow.

 

[ShaTiK]

Note: per the last Dev Stream, the last Open Beta update will be on Tuesday, as they will be folding the 3.99.x build with the new Biogenisis build to tweak and bug fix before 4.0.

This is basically it.

Ouch. This is shaping up to be a really messy patch. Not that any major patch in any PDX game was easy, but this actually might take the cake.

Imma be in that corner over there, with soda and popcorn...

 

[vulcan7200]

Note: per the last Dev Stream, the last Open Beta update will be on Tuesday, as they will be folding the 3.99.x build with the new Biogenisis build to tweak and bug fix before 4.0.

This is basically it.

While they will obviously still be testing internally, this is a terrifying thought as the system I think is in a pretty awful state at the moment. They haven't even nailed down proper numbers for literally the most basic empires, and Eladrin suggested they might be taking away a Zone and giving the Capital Zone more Buildings. That in of itself is going to need testing just to again make sure the bare minimum works correctly. They have about 4 weeks of internal testing to make sure things work well for basic UNE type gameplay AND Gestalts, Megacorps, a fair amount of origins Origins (Ocean Paradise, Gaia World, Broken Shackles, ect) as well as Civics that change the way you interact with the game like Agrarian Idyll or change jobs like Anglers. Plus they have to make sure it all works for the NEW Origins and any Civics that will be added into the game with the DLC. Now I'm sure the Devs are working overtime to get this all done, but that's still a very small amount of time to get this all working.

The Zones change feels like it was started too late. When they first introduced the Open Beta, it was nearly unplayable. That is wild for a change that people are suggesting has been in development for a long time. I have no idea what caused the delay on them starting it, but it should have been in mostly working order for the entire game by the time we got Open Beta which should have been used for bug finding and finetuning before release.

 

[NorseGod]

While they will obviously still be testing internally, this is a terrifying thought as the system I think is in a pretty awful state at the moment. They haven't even nailed down proper numbers for literally the most basic empires, and Eladrin suggested they might be taking away a Zone and giving the Capital Zone more Buildings. That in of itself is going to need testing just to again make sure the bare minimum works correctly. They have about 4 weeks of internal testing to make sure things work well for basic UNE type gameplay AND Gestalts, Megacorps, a fair amount of origins Origins (Ocean Paradise, Gaia World, Broken Shackles, ect) as well as Civics that change the way you interact with the game like Agrarian Idyll or change jobs like Anglers. Plus they have to make sure it all works for the NEW Origins and any Civics that will be added into the game with the DLC. Now I'm sure the Devs are working overtime to get this all done, but that's still a very small amount of time to get this all working.

The Zones change feels like it was started too late. When they first introduced the Open Beta, it was nearly unplayable. That is wild for a change that people are suggesting has been in development for a long time. I have no idea what caused the delay on them starting it, but it should have been in mostly working order for the entire game by the time we got Open Beta which should have been used for bug finding and finetuning before release.

Yeah, agreed. I think trying out this Zones system at the same time as swapping to x100 Pops was part of the issue. It would have been much easier to test out the ideas of Zones and see how it worked out if we had: accurate tooltips that told us what each of the changed systems and buildings did instead of guessing some of the time, and left the 1 Pop needs 1 Food system as it was, so it was easier for the testers to Grok what was going on with Zones.

I think the idea of Zones are cool, I just don't like the implementation, For one, I think "Zones" should have been the name of the box that contained Districts. Maybe something like this:

That let's the Devs add "Custom Zones" for unique worlds, story situations, 1-per empire locations, and tech-rewards. Also, it left the option to "Ascend" single Zones on a planet, such as adding Crystal Mines to the Mineral Zone, so all Miners just passiely add Crystals, etc.

Whether you keep Buildings in Zones or not is debateable, I can see arguments for it either way.

The problem is that the stated goals of the update and the incentives of the systems they're designed go in opposite directions. The say that they want more interesting planets with multiple different developments on them, but then the systems in the game and the way players are rewarded push hyper-specialization. They don't want us to pick out one planet in a 20-planet Empire and build nothing but Researchers on it - but then they create Planet Designations that only benefit one job, and give Building's upgrades that make the output of a single-job larger.

I think I might add a topic just to discuss this disconnect. I've seen it enough in businesses (I want my sales people to works as a team, I'm also running a contest where top salesperson of the quarter gets a vacation to Hawaii!!) that I think I can speak on it a bit.

 

[WoodenP]

When they first introduced the Open Beta, it was nearly unplayable. That is wild for a change that people are suggesting has been in development for a long time.

Much agreed with your post!

As for this specific snippet: It's because it hasn't. (Of course.)

 

[GnoSIS]

Just in case you missed it, you can try and play with more permissive buildings in zones using the mod I released today, to get a feel of the game differently, or even change the permissions yourself to try stuff.

I will update and add gestalts and machine empires when 4.0 releases, as they don't work currently. It goes without saying, that this discussion is finished for me, I'll probably never play again with the current design unmodded.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-mod-introducing-buildings-liberated.1733638/

Steam Link:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3454374362

 

[Tisifoni12]

Given the relatively small number of workers employed in food production at our current levels of technology the amount of workers involved in food production for the amount of food produced seems somewhat disproportionate. Since the last mini update a food shortage seems 'baked in'.

I look forward to the DEVS doing something with Trade; either get rid, or tone it down to 1/5 or 1/10. Maybe Stellaris needs an exchange mechanic, but generating so much 'trade' that you can just buy in huge amounts of whatever (1,000 or 5,000) to resolve deficits that are a function of the game system.