The "Mono Stacking" Problem

[Codyksp]

There is no reason the developers couldn't make it so that starting positions are fair between players.
Not identical, and nothing huge that changes the rest of the map, but just fair between all players.

For example, you can give them an equal amount of starting nodes and neutral camps to clear.
You can make sure that the Wonders and Infestations are of the same difficulty level.
And you can make sure that everyone gets the same amount of Magic Materials nearby.
Then put in some extra rules like no more than 2 of the same thing can repeat within a certain area.

I don't see why this would be a problem, you still have a random draw for what you actually get.
Also, the rest of the map wouldn't be impacted, so I don't see a downside to such a solution.

 

[GloatingSwine]

There is no reason the developers couldn't make it so that starting positions are fair between players.
Not identical, and nothing huge that changes the rest of the map, but just fair between all players.

For example, you can give them an equal amount of starting nodes and neutral camps to clear.
You can make sure that the Wonders and Infestations are of the same difficulty level.
And you can make sure that everyone gets the same amount of Magic Materials nearby.
Then put in some extra rules like no more than 2 of the same thing can repeat within a certain area.

I don't see why this would be a problem, you still have a random draw for what you actually get.
Also, the rest of the map wouldn't be impacted, so I don't see a downside to such a solution.

And they could even just make that a realm trait. Call it “suspicious symmetry” or something.

 

[Lebkuchenhausmeister]

There is no reason the developers couldn't make it so that starting positions are fair between players.
Not identical, and nothing huge that changes the rest of the map, but just fair between all players.

For example, you can give them an equal amount of starting nodes and neutral camps to clear.
You can make sure that the Wonders and Infestations are of the same difficulty level.
And you can make sure that everyone gets the same amount of Magic Materials nearby.
Then put in some extra rules like no more than 2 of the same thing can repeat within a certain area.

I don't see why this would be a problem, you still have a random draw for what you actually get.
Also, the rest of the map wouldn't be impacted, so I don't see a downside to such a solution.

For competitive multiplayer this is desirable. But I don't like this kind of streamlining in single player, where randomness is part of what keeps the game interesting. I still hope that they create a map editor for static maps. That would be best to create fair maps with 100% certainty.

 

[seperamos]

There is no reason the developers couldn't make it so that starting positions are fair between players.
Not identical, and nothing huge that changes the rest of the map, but just fair between all players.

For example, you can give them an equal amount of starting nodes and neutral camps to clear.
You can make sure that the Wonders and Infestations are of the same difficulty level.
And you can make sure that everyone gets the same amount of Magic Materials nearby.
Then put in some extra rules like no more than 2 of the same thing can repeat within a certain area.

I don't see why this would be a problem, you still have a random draw for what you actually get.
Also, the rest of the map wouldn't be impacted, so I don't see a downside to such a solution.

It may be better as a realm trait, because it will take randomness out of the start position, but it will feel samey doing it after a couple of realm games.

Wouldn't it be better for players to overcome start disadvantages with ruler types, specific buildings, and SPI's?

 

[Jolly Joker]

Isn't it a lot easier? UNKNOWN COMPLEX map? You don't know what kind of map you'll actually face with up to 12 traits. Solves every randomization problem.

 

[Codyksp]

For competitive multiplayer this is desirable. But I don't like this kind of streamlining in single player, where randomness is part of what keeps the game interesting. I still hope that they create a map editor for satic maps. That would be best to create fair maps with 100% certainty.

The older games had this, but I honestly don't enjoy 100% symmetrical and perfectly balanced custom maps.
Because if you play them more than once, you know exactly where everything is and how to exploit the map.
That's why I would prefer to keep the random generation but make it "less random" by having some rules.

It may be better as a realm trait, because it will take randomness out of the start position, but it will feel samey doing it after a couple of realm games.

Wouldn't it be better for players to overcome start disadvantages with ruler types, specific buildings, and SPI's?

I disagree that it would be samey, since it would only impact a small area around your Throne. Maybe enough for 1 city.
But you would still have mostly random nodes, pick-ups, materials, wonders and infestations every time you play.
It would just always be an even amount of nodes/pick-ups/materials and the same difficulty for wonders/infestations.

i.e. all players get a Bronze or Silver one nearby, randomized, but at least the same difficulty for all to make the map fair.
And while you might get 1 liquid and 2 plants someone else gets 1 ore, 1 liquid and 1 plant as their starting materials.
You could get a gold vein, mana node and 2 iron deposits. Your opponent gets pastures, 2 gold veins and an iron deposit.

Do you see what I mean? It will be random, but fairly random. No huge snowball starts could happen.

Isn't it a lot easier? UNKNOWN COMPLEX map? You don't know what kind of map you'll actually face with up to 12 traits. Solves every randomization problem.

This just messes with a lot of choices from the pre-game. Certain Cultures, Tomes, Form Traits or Society Traits can be OP or useless.
In my opinion playing with something like this goes entirely against expanding the amount of strategies/builds people can play.

 

[seperamos]

The older games had this, but I honestly don't enjoy 100% symmetrical and perfectly balanced custom maps.
Because if you play them more than once, you know exactly where everything is and how to exploit the map.
That's why I would prefer to keep the random generation but make it "less random" by having some rules.


I disagree that it would be samey, since it would only impact a small area around your Throne. Maybe enough for 1 city.
But you would still have mostly random nodes, pick-ups, materials, wonders and infestations every time you play.
It would just always be an even amount of nodes/pick-ups/materials and the same difficulty for wonders/infestations.

i.e. all players get a Bronze or Silver one nearby, randomized, but at least the same difficulty for all to make the map fair.
And while you might get 1 liquid and 2 plants someone else gets 1 ore, 1 liquid and 1 plant as their starting materials.
You could get a gold vein, mana node and 2 iron deposits. Your opponent gets pastures, 2 gold veins and an iron deposit.

Do you see what I mean? It will be random, but fairly random. No huge snowball starts could happen.


This just messes with a lot of choices from the pre-game. Certain Cultures, Tomes, Form Traits or Society Traits can be OP or useless.
In my opinion playing with something like this goes entirely against expanding the amount of strategies/builds people can play.

Every player having the same access to the same resources, or guaranteed resources, is very uninteresting, imho. There should be a way to build specific buildings that can adjust for the random terrain starts, but having a perfect starting positions then leads to less need to expand more cities with better locations earlier. It will become easier for players to challenge AI and each other.

Part of the excitement of exploring in this game is to find locations and wonders to expand into, and there's less need to do that if everything you need is right at the throne city. Guild masteries are an extra building that can help compensate for missing resources. Every culture should have a way of compensating for missing resources with enough investment in buIlding or tome/empire related SPI's.

Adaptation to starting terrain should remain part of the fun of the game. We just need access to tools that can assist us getting the resources we need.

 

[Codyksp]

Every player having the same access to the same resources, or guaranteed resources, is very uninteresting, imho. There should be a way to build specific buildings that can adjust for the random terrain starts, but having a perfect starting positions then leads to less need to expand more cities with better locations earlier. It will become easier for players to challenge AI and each other.

But these do not exist in the game right now and adding them is far more work, it's like making a second game.
I don't think we should come up with ideas that are like asking for Age of Wonders 5, it's just unrealistic.

Part of the excitement of exploring in this game is to find locations and wonders to expand into, and there's less need to do that if everything you need is right at the throne city. Guild masteries are an extra building that can help compensate for missing resources. Every culture should have a way of compensating for missing resources with enough investment in buIlding or tome/empire related SPI's.

The only useful Guild in the game is Scholar's Guild, all of the other ones are really bad currently.
You could maybe make a small argument for Smith's Guild, but even that one is much weaker.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Tbh for magic materials they should probably just change the effect of tranquility pool because it’s in an entirely different league to the others.

 

[seperamos]

But these do not exist in the game right now and adding them is far more work, it's like making a second game.
I don't think we should come up with ideas that are like asking for Age of Wonders 5, it's just unrealistic.


The only useful Guild in the game is Scholar's Guild, all of the other ones are really bad currently.
You could maybe make a small argument for Smith's Guild, but even that one is much weaker.

Adding city buildings to account for poor resource starts is not asking for AOW5 or a second game within a game. It will be less resource intensive than other reworks and provide options to pick when there are missing resources. They can only be built if certain resources are missing within a certain area of tiles.

It offers a strategic advantage for players who want to build out of their terrible start location and know how to do so by investing resources into the right buildings and SPI's during the early game. Every culture or primary affinity can offer different resource building chains to do this. It enables more strategies and playstyles to tackle different scenarios.

 

[Codyksp]

Tbh for magic materials they should probably just change the effect of tranquility pool because it’s in an entirely different league to the others.

My personal suggestion (and what I modded) is to make Cosmoflux only work on Cities.
So, Outposts would no longer be spammed on Mana Nodes for tons of income.

 

[Jolly Joker]

This just messes with a lot of choices from the pre-game. Certain Cultures, Tomes, Form Traits or Society Traits can be OP or useless.
In my opinion playing with something like this goes entirely against expanding the amount of strategies/builds people can play.

I meant that as Single Player Randomization (so that your starting conditions will surprise you). For SP Unknown Map with Complex Traits is the best thing ever, because, in case you didn't try it out, the now up to 12 map traits are only revealed when you can actually see them (or you get contact or context). It's awesome in that regard because you have to be very alert, scout like hell (to get the traits) and be ready to change your tome strategy, since you don't have even half the picture on day 1.

And, yes, of course, if you'd play that in MP, there'd probably be a separate meta for the picking of Form and Society Traits and culture. You'd never ever pick a terrain adaption, since you wouldn't know whether that terrain was even in. You'd avoid High because you wouldn't know whether even Free Cities were in and so on.

 

[Arcantos_the_Storyteller]

Yes and no? There is the route of doing some abstraction, shield and polearm as unit types don't necessarily need to only be units that literally are holding either shields or polearms. How many games are there that make bears defensive tanks, as an example?

Fighter as a unit class literally seems to exist just as a catch-all for units that the designers don't want to categorize otherwise. Which raises questions about the intended design. Like, if you're going to go out of your way to make a unit counter system, it seems counter-productive to have an entire category of units that exists just to be outside of it.

Eh... unless its actually magical, its kinda hard to have a Bear be a shield unit, when one of the defining features of a Shield Unit is that when they go into Defence Mode, they increase the defences of adjacent allies, I'm not sure I could see the flavour of a beat doing the same, even if they are a tough and tanky unit.

And there is still work to be done be it tweaking the classes we already have to adding new ones even if you perceive new system as fantastic, that was my point. It is like saying cultures are fantastic when quite a few of them would benefit greatly from fine-tuning and/or new additions. (like peeps still want their rogue culture from what I saw)

Fair point, fair point.

 

[Kitschy]

I meant that as Single Player Randomization (so that your starting conditions will surprise you). For SP Unknown Map with Complex Traits is the best thing ever, because, in case you didn't try it out, the now up to 12 map traits are only revealed when you can actually see them (or you get contact or context). It's awesome in that regard because you have to be very alert, scout like hell (to get the traits) and be ready to change your tome strategy, since you don't have even half the picture on day 1.

And, yes, of course, if you'd play that in MP, there'd probably be a separate meta for the picking of Form and Society Traits and culture. You'd never ever pick a terrain adaption, since you wouldn't know whether that terrain was even in. You'd avoid High because you wouldn't know whether even Free Cities were in and so on.

Nah dude, I get where he is coming from. Some times starting position F you so much that you basically fighting an uphill battle from the get go. Imo if it is possible to do then it should be done via realm trait like Sep suggested, that said tho some random difficulty variations even with such setup would be unavoidable. (like for example Wonders even of the same type have wildly different encounter when it comes to difficulty)

 

[Jolly Joker]

*Sigh*
Yes, dude, I was actually answering to THIS post:

For competitive multiplayer this is desirable. But I don't like this kind of streamlining in single player, where randomness is part of what keeps the game interesting. I still hope that they create a map editor for static maps. That would be best to create fair maps with 100% certainty.

 

[GloatingSwine]

My personal suggestion (and what I modded) is to make it only work on Cities.
So, Outposts would no longer be spammed on Mana Nodes for tons of income.

The main thing for me is that 10% reduced tech cost is a gigantic effect for owning a single copy of one magic material compared to anything any of the rest of them do. Especially now the liquids group is restricted where it can spawn.

 

[Triumph Jordi]

I, for one, hope Avoxel gets the time and freedom to dive deeper into this and other priority issues in the near future.
He's the only real vocal dev (sorry Jordi, you're QA ) and displays a healthy understanding of the game and our concerns.
I am absolutely not biased because he said he might look into the issue with unit enchantments. Nope, no siree Bob.

While Thomas' personal preferences for the game might align, it is not representative of the game direction or development. He is still bound to the Design Pillars and Game Vision that define Age of Wonders 4 and proposals that would infringe on those are unlikely to pass our Greenlight procedures.

 

[Codyksp]

While Thomas' personal preferences for the game might align, it is not representative of the game direction or development. He is still bound to the Design Pillars and Game Vision that define Age of Wonders 4 and proposals that would infringe on those are unlikely to pass our Greenlight procedures.

This is simply where you (and maybe others at Triumph) and I (and a likely majority of players in this thread) differ in opinion.
While it is good to have a strategy and baseline to adhere to, we must also realize that the game has changed in the past 2 years.
It is folly to try and adhere to a plan that was hatched 2 years ago in a game that expands and changes as much as this one does.

I see two pillars you're probably referencing. "Player Freedom" and "Faction Evolution". I might be a little off on the actual names.
The game already doesn't grant players full freedom, and it never can. Nobody can reasonably expect this in a game like AoW.
There are also many examples of restrictions being added over the course of the game's lifespan, to improve various experiences.

Regarding the pillar "Faction Evolution". What does this actually mean? Restrictions do not stand directly counter to evolution.
i.e. if I upgrade from a T1 enchantment to a T4 enchantment, I'm still "evolving". My faction has become different than they were.
Replacing something old with something new, as you do with unit tiers, is a natural part of the game. Why not for enchantments?

When the baseline gameplay experience suffers, there should be enough reason to investigate and search for a solution to the issue.
This has been shown with the Hero rework, Repeating/Non-Repeating (now Single Shot), Heavy Charge Strike (now extremely rare),
Research cost adjustments, Tome affinity requirements, and the more recent changes to the Item Forge to add Binding Fragments.

I'm not talking only about multiplayer, to be clear. I am also referring to the single player experience, as people in the thread confirm.
A great example of this is how the AI doesn't stack enchantments. Human players roll them after a few tomes for this specific reason.

Anyway. I appreciate that you took the time to reply. I merely ask that we keep an open mind about the issue, it's not make-believe.

 

[Codyksp]

The main thing for me is that 10% reduced tech cost is a gigantic effect for owning a single copy of one magic material compared to anything any of the rest of them do. Especially now the liquids group is restricted where it can spawn.

I was referring to Cosmoflux Elixir, not the actual Tranquility Pool bonus. I've edited it now.
The change to Liquids was a mistake. This did nothing to improve gameplay in my opinion.
10% research discount isn't too crazy though. But you could make it 5% if you wanted to.

Now everyone just plays with Arctic Adaptation or Primal Mammoth to guarantee them.
Yes, one form trait point is worth securing Cosmoflux Elixir. It's broken beyond belief.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, Cosmoflux is just even more better, but I think you're underestimating the 10% discount, because it's functionally a separate multiplicative 10% increase to all your knowledge output no matter what source it comes from.