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Tinto Maps #6 Great Britain & Ireland Feedback

9 September 2024 12 May 2025​


What an exciting week we have had, and best of all I finally get to say the name Europa Universalis V. It still feels weird in my mouth after carefully saying Caesar for what feels like a lifetime.

But lo, the day is finally come for the British Isles feedback thread. This short update was supposed to come out a few months ago, but I just had to teach some of you a lesson. Also I had a lot of other things on, like appearing in the announcement show last week.


Here we see the updated topography:

topography.jpg



The updated vegetation:
vegetation.jpg



Many impassable barriers have been added, for example the various peaks of the Pennines and the Wicklow Mountains. The Shannon also now poses a more significant barrier between east and west Ireland, with only a few crossing points often guarded by stockades.


Here we have the Locations map, bear in mind they are only showing the default English names but many places have Gaelic or Brythonic versions.

locations.jpg




Every country has had a general increase in density.

England, in particular the south, has had a big revamp at Location and Province level to more accurately reflect the historical counties, many of them pre-Norman in origin and many of them still in use today in some form. Westminster as a capital has been killed and rolled into a monolithic London.




Provinces:
provinces.jpg


Areas:

areas.jpg



And political mapmode (with overlord colouring off):
political.png




And Dynasties:
dynasty.jpg


We have added the Earldom of Orkney in the northern isles as a Norwegian vassal. Meanwhile the Palatinate of Durham and Chester have both been promoted from a special set of buildings to vassals under England. Wales has also been limited strictly to the Principality of Wales, with the marcher lords existing as very low control locations under England.

Ireland has had a major rework in terms of locations and tags. Mostly there have been minor Irish chieftaincies added. As always we are grateful to the many suggestions that have come from the forumers.



Culture:
culture.jpg



The most obvious culture change is that English has had Northumbrian split off, to represent the divide between southern and northern dialects and attitudes. A practical example of this is how in the south the English are more friendly to Normans, whereas the Northumbrians hate them (the northern shires still bear the scars of the Harrying of the North). Northumbrians and Scots also spoke a similar form of English in this period, so it helps to set them up as a sort of middleman.

Norwegians in northern Scotland and the nearby North Atlantic have also been split into Norn.


As a bonus, Court Language, showing 3 main worlds: Gaelic, Anglo-French, and Roman Catholic Bishoprics.

court_language.jpg



There have also been some changes to Raw Goods, as you can see here:

raw.jpg





We still have time to make some changes, so let us know what we can do to push this even further towards where it needs to be.

I won’t show Population numbers right now, as it’s pending a proper rework. Among other things, the idea is to reduce the population numbers in England.
 
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Every country has had a general increase in density.

England, in particular the south, has had a big revamp at Location and Province level to more accurately reflect the historical counties, many of them pre-Norman in origin and many of them still in use today in some form. Westminster as a capital has been killed and rolled into a monolithic London.
I am very pleased to see that London now assumes its rightful place as the capital, which was my main wish for this update. However, I also really like the extra locations and extra provinces added, as this makes England feel much more realistic to play. Very well done!

Any chance that we could have the City and Town map and the natural Habour map as they stand currently?

I will have a much closer look at the map when I get home tonight but in terms of immediate observations/suggestions. I would suggest renaming Southwark to Greenwich (as a rural location). As I mentioned in the original Tinto Map Southwark was really more of a suburb of London, and given that the location stretches more to the east than the London location, naming it after this more eastern part of London may make sense. Given Greenwich's historical association with the Navy, it may also be interesting to have it as a location where you over the course of the game can build up naval infrastructure. However, on the other hand, it is not something I will lose sleep over if you keep it as it is.
 
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This reply from the NA map post was what I was thinking of. It’s possible I’m miss reading Johan’s reply but I think he’s saying you won’t be able to temporarily change RGO or change them via decision.
Pavía's reply sounds like there won't be discoverable RGOs by release?
 
Could we also see the dynasty and population maps, as well as any wars and subject-overlord relations? I may have spotted a couple oddities in the population map in a stream the other day!
Out of curiousity, what stream focused on Irish gameplay, is it just more analysis of Feedback Gaming's video, or is there more content out there?
 
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I think there should be a lot less sparse vegetation, especially in England. England is a very green place and it gets a lot of rain. It doesn't make sense that a place like Plymouth or Scarborough would have the same vegetation as Gabes in Tunisia and Central Anatolian. Plymouth get around 40 inches of precipitation annually, while Gabes gets about 7.5 inches and Konya in central Anatolia get about 13. Also, the places in England are in an Oceanic climate, compared to a semi-arid climate in the other locations.

Plymouth
Capture.PNG


Konya
Capturea.PNG
 
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Middlesex having the boundaries of Metropolitan London hurts a bit, but I suppose it's an anachronistic necessity for gameplay purposes?
London as a city (as opposed to the City of London) never really conformed to the historical county borders, with Southwark technically being part of Surrey, but effectively a suburb of London even in the 14th century. So I actually think using the admittedly anachronistic borders makes sense when it comes to the London area.
 
This is what terrain in the game should look like!

But yeah, I think the sparse vegetation is a bit of a local bias. If we're going by the same metric, then half of Northern Germany and the Low Countries should probably have sparse vegetation to represent areas with bad soil...
 
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Is there something representing the Cinque Ports? Could they be an extraterritorial country similar to the Hanseatic League?
Also what about the City of London's "ancient liberties"?
I think I saw that there was some flavour stuff associated with the Cinque Ports in one of the videos released (someone talking about the amount of flavor for each country, where they showed England and you could see the list if you paused).
 
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I think there should be a lot less sparse vegetation, especially in England. England is a very green place and it gets a lot of rain. It doesn't make sense that a place like Plymouth or Scarborough would have the same vegetation as Gabes in Tunisia and Central Anatolian. Plymouth get around 40 inches of precipitation annually, while Gabes gets about 7.5 inches and Konya in central Anatolia get about 13. Also, the places in England are in an Oceanic climate, compared to a semi-arid climate in the other locations.

Plymouth
View attachment 1296872

Konya
View attachment 1296873
Yeah to be fair, my purely subjective opinion is that I can't see it making sense being "sparse" *anywhere* in England at the very least. But that is not backed up by any objective data
 
London as a city (as opposed to the City of London) never really conformed to the historical county borders, with Southwark technically being part of Surrey, but effectively a suburb of London even in the 14th century. So I actually think using the admittedly anachronistic borders makes sense when it comes to the London area.
I suppose I agree in this sense, too. Though, my personal gripe is that half of what is represented as Southwark ought to be the westernmost parts of Kent. Similar can be said about Barking and Essex. But, I suppose these things are difficult; how granular and detailed can you be before you sacrifice systems and mechanics, etc.

In a similar vein, I find it odd that they've tried to represent the North Downs in Kent (Rochester and Canterbury being hills), but not the South Downs in Sussex and Surrey. However, with how nit-picky I alone want to be, I increasingly do not envy being a game developer.
 
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Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, or if you've already answered this, but will the Glyndwr Rising be represented at all? I do want to try Wales as a first campaign, but it does seem to be incredibly weak when compared to England here.
 
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I like a lot of the changes made in the Devon/Cornwall areas. I have a couple of specific suggestions, but I mostly just wanted to say well done for making it better! Adding additional locations seems to have enabled greater depth and range, with better representation of trade goods and things like moorland, so thank you for helping my future immersion.

I really like that the diversity of mining in those locations has been improved (the lack of copper there in the original map seemed a particular gap). I would personally like to see even more mining goods (iron/lead) represented there, but I do appreciate the challenges with balance and fitting them in with the other trade goods (fish and wool seem just as relevant).

I like how Bodmin Moor, Dartmoor and Exmoor all seem to be represented now. I am a little unsure about the Bideford location being 'sparse', as I don't see which moor that would include - it's a very minor point and, to be completely honest, it's probably also the part of Devon/Cornwall I'm least familiar with personally. I also don't know what actual in game impact of the vegetation is, so I'm speaking more from a flavour perspective.

I would also be interested in knowing why the Bampton location has that name rather than somewhere like Tiverton. Genuine question because I don't know about Bampton, but it did get me thinking about whether that area should have wool rather than tin (reflecting the growth that Tiverton experienced during the period covered in the game via its wool market) and then switch one of the areas above it (I think Minehead) to a mineral (maybe iron) to reflect the mining at Brendon Hills/Exmoor.

Edit - seeing other peoples' comments, I think there's a different point about whether 'sparse' is the right representation for moorland. I wasn't speaking to that, and won't be since I have no idea what the in game impact of all that is.
 
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I dislike that Northern English culture is called "Northumbrian", because it makes it sound like Northerners aren't English and like Southern English culture is "real" English culture.

I would like to see a bit of beeswax, as we have a long tradition of beekeeping - England is one of the nations that has the custom of "telling the bees".
I think this is an important point that should be addressed, even if just superficially.

While there's a need to represent the lack of social and linguistic cohesion in England within the period, as well as a gameplay-motivated desire to not have an overly large homogenous entity (e.g. England compared with France or Germany), I personally think renaming the cultures Northern English and Southern English would probably be the most straightforward approach.

The culture retains some degree of separation without anachronistic endonyms, and also lessens the potential 'othering' of labelling a vast amount of English people as something other than English. Aditionally, it would more accurately reflect their common heritage, and perhaps better form the basis of some later in-game mechanic for cultural unification.
 
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