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Tinto Maps #6 Great Britain & Ireland Feedback

9 September 2024 12 May 2025​


What an exciting week we have had, and best of all I finally get to say the name Europa Universalis V. It still feels weird in my mouth after carefully saying Caesar for what feels like a lifetime.

But lo, the day is finally come for the British Isles feedback thread. This short update was supposed to come out a few months ago, but I just had to teach some of you a lesson. Also I had a lot of other things on, like appearing in the announcement show last week.


Here we see the updated topography:

topography.jpg



The updated vegetation:
vegetation.jpg



Many impassable barriers have been added, for example the various peaks of the Pennines and the Wicklow Mountains. The Shannon also now poses a more significant barrier between east and west Ireland, with only a few crossing points often guarded by stockades.


Here we have the Locations map, bear in mind they are only showing the default English names but many places have Gaelic or Brythonic versions.

locations.jpg




Every country has had a general increase in density.

England, in particular the south, has had a big revamp at Location and Province level to more accurately reflect the historical counties, many of them pre-Norman in origin and many of them still in use today in some form. Westminster as a capital has been killed and rolled into a monolithic London.




Provinces:
provinces.jpg


Areas:

areas.jpg



And political mapmode (with overlord colouring off):
political.png




And Dynasties:
dynasty.jpg


We have added the Earldom of Orkney in the northern isles as a Norwegian vassal. Meanwhile the Palatinate of Durham and Chester have both been promoted from a special set of buildings to vassals under England. Wales has also been limited strictly to the Principality of Wales, with the marcher lords existing as very low control locations under England.

Ireland has had a major rework in terms of locations and tags. Mostly there have been minor Irish chieftaincies added. As always we are grateful to the many suggestions that have come from the forumers.



Culture:
culture.jpg



The most obvious culture change is that English has had Northumbrian split off, to represent the divide between southern and northern dialects and attitudes. A practical example of this is how in the south the English are more friendly to Normans, whereas the Northumbrians hate them (the northern shires still bear the scars of the Harrying of the North). Northumbrians and Scots also spoke a similar form of English in this period, so it helps to set them up as a sort of middleman.

Norwegians in northern Scotland and the nearby North Atlantic have also been split into Norn.


As a bonus, Court Language, showing 3 main worlds: Gaelic, Anglo-French, and Roman Catholic Bishoprics.

court_language.jpg



There have also been some changes to Raw Goods, as you can see here:

raw.jpg





We still have time to make some changes, so let us know what we can do to push this even further towards where it needs to be.

I won’t show Population numbers right now, as it’s pending a proper rework. Among other things, the idea is to reduce the population numbers in England.
 
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The state of Britain....
(not the first time I've said that)



At this point I'm mostly looking for feedback on attributes of the locations more than shape or number of them.


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Northimbrian and Anglo-Irish have very similar colours, can you change one if the two?
The country of Desmond also has a colour which is very similar to England and the Pale
 
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The state of Britain....
(not the first time I've said that)



At this point I'm mostly looking for feedback on attributes of the locations more than shape or number of them.


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Has there been any work done on the natural harbours of the region? Besides that, the only feedback I have is that Exeter might be better as flatland, given that the core of the area all around the city itself is some of the flattest land in Devon.

Edit:
Actually, it doesn't make a huge difference, but the Dartmoor wasteland is quite weirdly shaped. The actual inhospitable part of the moor is further west than that, I'd suggest adjusting it so that it covers the two brown zones on this google maps image.
1747317862019.png
 
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Has there been any work done on the natural harbours of the region? Besides that, the only feedback I have is that Exeter might be better as flatland, given that the core of the area all around the city itself is some of the flattest land in Devon.

Edit:
Actually, it doesn't make a huge difference, but the Dartmoor wasteland is quite weirdly shaped. The actual inhospitable part of the moor is further west than that, I'd suggest adjusting it so that it covers the two brown zones on this google maps image.View attachment 1299540
That places it here, and I can't see a good way to shift the locations around to make it interersting for gaemplay. I think I will delete it outright.
1747318487738.png
 
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Huge huge improvement, thanks for listening!
Could we possibly see the fish in Dundee change to fruit (as that area is known for it) and turn one of the coastal locations in Aberdeenshire into fish? Stonehaven, Peterhead, and Fraserburgh are some of the big population centres up there and all are coastal towns which at the time would have been built on the fishing industry.

Also, Irvine/Ayr should really be flatlands instead of hills imo, as while there are some rolling hills as you get further from the coast, there's a large flat area on the coast between Ayr and Kilwinning where most of the population is, and hence what should be represented in the terrain for gameplay purposes
 
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The state of Britain....
(not the first time I've said that)



At this point I'm mostly looking for feedback on attributes of the locations more than shape or number of them.


View attachment 1299485



View attachment 1299487

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I'll assume no more location changes in Ireland, and nothing too radical from here - I know I've already asked a lot! There are still a few little things I think would really help polish the setup.

Names:

Rename Carbery to Dunboy: the location is not in Carbery, and Dunboy was the main fort in Beare. Rename Fingal to Malahide and Fews to Newry or Tandragee, to ensure all location names in Ireland are settlements rather than geographical terms. Rename Killeshandra to Ballyconnell, and Newtownards to Bangor, to avoid having plantation towns in medieval Ireland. Correct the misspelt Buncranna to Buncranna, and Innishowen to Inishowen.

Provinces and Areas:

Remove the Plantation-era Offaly province: give Birr to Tipperary, Cullohill to Kilkenny, Tullamore to Meath, and the remaining Dunamase and Daingean to Kildare.

Move the Kilkenny province to Leinster, which it had been part of for centuries.

Give the Dublin province Wicklow and Glendalough, which would be part of County Dublin until the 17th century. In exchange, Navan should return to Meath and Drogheda to Oriel. The Pale continued to administer its land according to the respective county borders!

Remove the Plantation-era Derry province: reunite it with their Kinelowen brethren in Tyrone, along with Buncrana. In exchange, give Donegal the two Fermanagh locations, and rename it to Tyrconnell, to better represent the rivalry between the Northern Uí Néill lineages.

Rename the Kerry province to Limerick, which was much more populated and important.

Political changes:

The Kings of Ossory never owned Dunamase. If you'd like a two-location Irish minor here to avoid too many ULMs, give it to Offaly, who owned the northern half of the location anyway. Alternatively you could just give it to Kildare, who still loosely controlled this land.

Please give Clanwilliam the Tipperary location! They had extensive, rich lands in the County: Tipperary is in the "Clanwilliam" barony to this day. They were the strongest and most senior of the divided Burke clans at the start, and should also start in the middle of the Burke Civil War with Clanricarde and Mayo.

The setup in modern County Wicklow is a little odd, as giving Leinster the O'Byrne lands in coastal Wicklow only really makes sense if you also give them the lands of their close O'Toole relatives too. If you want to keep Leinster strong whilst keeping the province setup, I'd either add a Crioch Branach tag in the Wicklow location, and make both them and Imaal loyal vassals of Leinster, or I'd just give Leinster the Glendalough location and give the Pale Wicklow - they did own the city itself, after all.

I'm not sure from the colour of Inishowen if they're vassals of Tyrone or Tyrconnell - it should definitely be Tyrone at game start, and Tyrone should be in a very unstable personal union under Clandeboye.

Beare should probably be a vassal of Munster if it isn't already!

Thanks a bunch for all you've added already, the whole region is looking great!
 
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Scotland looks great but why did you erase the provinces of Offaly in Ireland? Offaly was formed in 1556 which means that is has been a thing for the majority of the time frame of the game
Screenshot_20250515_173445_Chrome.jpg

Both of them can still fit since they and their neighbouring provinces would have at least three locations
 
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Terrain Map Changes
  • Skye – Hills to Mountains
  • Lorne – Hills to Mountains
  • Mull – Hills to Mountains
  • Cowal – Hills to Mountains
  • Dumbarton – Flatlands to Hills
  • Stirling – Flatlands to Hills
  • Pailsley – Flatlands to Hills (difficult choice as the West is very hilly, with the easy being more rolling hills and valleys)
  • Ayr – Hills to Flatlands
1747325737804.png

Vegetation Changes
  • Fraserburgh – Forest to Woods
  • Braemar – Grasslands to Forest
  • Dumbarton – Grassland to Woods
  • Paisley – Grassland to Woods
  • Irvine - Woods to Grassland
  • Ayr – Forest to Grassland
  • Dumfries – Sparse to Woods
  • Roxburgh – Grassland to Woods
  • Perth – Grassland to Woods
I managed to find some mapping about the coverage of ‘ancient’ woodland in Scotland. Data is largely from a survey in the 19th century, and unfortunately little hard data predates this. There are some descriptions, and it’s well documented that Scotland saw significant deforestation in the 17th and 18th centuries. Areas like Braemar are much more heavily wooded than reflected in the current map.

https://maps.nls.uk/projects/woodland/#zoom=6.8&lat=56.97788&lon=-4.31941&layers=1&b=3

Trade Good Changes
  • Braemar – Wool to lumber
  • Dunkeld – Pearls to Lumber
  • Ayr – Livestock to Grain

Huge huge improvement, thanks for listening!
Could we possibly see the fish in Dundee change to fruit (as that area is known for it) and turn one of the coastal locations in Aberdeenshire into fish? Stonehaven, Peterhead, and Fraserburgh are some of the big population centres up there and all are coastal towns which at the time would have been built on the fishing industry.

Also, Irvine/Ayr should really be flatlands instead of hills imo, as while there are some rolling hills as you get further from the coast, there's a large flat area on the coast between Ayr and Kilwinning where most of the population is, and hence what should be represented in the terrain for gameplay purposes

Changes in Angus could make sense. Dundee was known for their fishing industry, but as pointed out, the area around Dundee was/is known for their fruit production as well. If another location in Angus would be switched to fish, I would suggest Arbroath, which is well-known as a fishing town.

I’ve also thought that the trade good in Forfar could be changed to fiber crops. This area did see the cultivation of flax in the medieval and early modern era, and this would support Dundee’s textile and shipbuilding industries, which were very significant.

  • Forfar – Wool to Fiber Crops
  • Arbroath – Wool to Fish?
  • Dundee – Fish to Fruit (potentially)#
New Ayrshire location?

Going through these maps, I was struck by one thing – the Ayr location may need to be split up to represent some of the significant geographic changes that occur in the south of Ayrshire. It might make sense for a location centered around Girvan (or perhaps Turnberry, as a significant castle and seat of the Bruce family). If this were to be introduced, I’d recommend:
  • Terrain – Hills
  • Vegetation – Woods
  • Trade good - Wool
I would also recommend that Ayrshire be included as their own province. Consisting of Irvine, Ayr, and a new location in the south, if this were added in. Ayrshire is quite distinct from Galloway and Strathclyde, and was fairly prominent in the Scottish economy, politics, and culture during this period.
 
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I don't understand the point of Norse-Gael culture, what distinguishes it from Highland or Norn? Do they speak Norse? Why are they in Strathclyde?
 
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I don't understand the point of Norse-Gael culture, what distinguishes it from Highland or Norn? Do they speak Norse? Why are they in Strathclyde?
Norse-Gael represents a continuum of Scandinavians who have been Gaelicised (they speak Irish and have adopted some Celtic manners). People such as Ostmen, Hebridians, Manx. And, in the south-west Scottish mainland, Galwegians. Mostly they don't have much association with Norway any more, but in this period they were still understood to be foreign settlers.

Norn are a different settler group of Scandinavians who have not been Gaelicised and still speak Norse languages. They also are generally more politically associated with Norway than Scotland or Ireland.
 
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Norse-Gael represents a continuum of Scandinavians who have been Gaelicised. People such as Ostmen, Hebridians, Manx. And, in the south-west Scottish mainland, Galwegians. Mostly they don't have much association with Norway any more.

Norn are a settler group of Scandinavians who have not been Gaelicised and still speak Norse languages. They also are generally more politically associated with Norway than Scotland or Ireland.
Are there Norn in Norse-Gael areas? I'm not sure when the last Scandinavian speakers died out
 
The state of Britain....
(not the first time I've said that)



At this point I'm mostly looking for feedback on attributes of the locations more than shape or number of them.


View attachment 1299485



View attachment 1299487

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I'm not knowledgeable enough to give any feedback, but I just want to say thank you for the level of continuous communication with us. It's very much appreciated.
 
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No, I've assumed all Scandis outside the Northern Isles and Sutherland are gaelicised. Though it would be interesting if we had a better guess on that.
Well I think at some point before they were conquered many of the Hebrides island were mostly if not fully Norse based on toponymic evidence, I don't know what evidence there is for its decline, but at some point new toponyms were clearly produced from a non-Norse population.

Edit: A passage I found says this:

"but there isless certainty about Man and eastern Caithness. In Man there is evidence thatsome Scandinavian place-names were anglicised without having first beengaelicised (Rhys in Moore 1890, v-viii, cf. also Moore 1890, 287), and ineastern Caithness few if any of the Scandinavian words (some 200, accordingto Thorsen 1954, 238) and place-names that have survived bear traces ofhaving passed into Scots through Gaelic. Scandinavian in these areas maytherefore have succumbed in part or almost entirely to varieties of English. "

Ok so in Mann it seems possible Norse survived for quite long, in Caithness as we also know Scots replaced Norn and not Gaelic so putting the date quite late.


"Besides these, the last strongholds of Norn in Scotland seem to have been the Hebrides and Caithness (ON Katanes, North-East Scotland). In the Hebrides, Norn is believed to have died out in the 1500-1600's at the latest, replaced by Gaelic, but having left a big number of toponymes and borrowings in the Celtic language."

Not a good source by any means, but I wonder where they got the information from(they don't source it...)
 
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