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Tinto Maps #6 Great Britain & Ireland Feedback

9 September 2024 12 May 2025​


What an exciting week we have had, and best of all I finally get to say the name Europa Universalis V. It still feels weird in my mouth after carefully saying Caesar for what feels like a lifetime.

But lo, the day is finally come for the British Isles feedback thread. This short update was supposed to come out a few months ago, but I just had to teach some of you a lesson. Also I had a lot of other things on, like appearing in the announcement show last week.


Here we see the updated topography:

topography.jpg



The updated vegetation:
vegetation.jpg



Many impassable barriers have been added, for example the various peaks of the Pennines and the Wicklow Mountains. The Shannon also now poses a more significant barrier between east and west Ireland, with only a few crossing points often guarded by stockades.


Here we have the Locations map, bear in mind they are only showing the default English names but many places have Gaelic or Brythonic versions.

locations.jpg




Every country has had a general increase in density.

England, in particular the south, has had a big revamp at Location and Province level to more accurately reflect the historical counties, many of them pre-Norman in origin and many of them still in use today in some form. Westminster as a capital has been killed and rolled into a monolithic London.




Provinces:
provinces.jpg


Areas:

areas.jpg



And political mapmode (with overlord colouring off):
political.png




And Dynasties:
dynasty.jpg


We have added the Earldom of Orkney in the northern isles as a Norwegian vassal. Meanwhile the Palatinate of Durham and Chester have both been promoted from a special set of buildings to vassals under England. Wales has also been limited strictly to the Principality of Wales, with the marcher lords existing as very low control locations under England.

Ireland has had a major rework in terms of locations and tags. Mostly there have been minor Irish chieftaincies added. As always we are grateful to the many suggestions that have come from the forumers.



Culture:
culture.jpg



The most obvious culture change is that English has had Northumbrian split off, to represent the divide between southern and northern dialects and attitudes. A practical example of this is how in the south the English are more friendly to Normans, whereas the Northumbrians hate them (the northern shires still bear the scars of the Harrying of the North). Northumbrians and Scots also spoke a similar form of English in this period, so it helps to set them up as a sort of middleman.

Norwegians in northern Scotland and the nearby North Atlantic have also been split into Norn.


As a bonus, Court Language, showing 3 main worlds: Gaelic, Anglo-French, and Roman Catholic Bishoprics.

court_language.jpg



There have also been some changes to Raw Goods, as you can see here:

raw.jpg





We still have time to make some changes, so let us know what we can do to push this even further towards where it needs to be.

I won’t show Population numbers right now, as it’s pending a proper rework. Among other things, the idea is to reduce the population numbers in England.
 
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Are you referring to the country or the region of Leinster? Because as fsr as I know the regions haven't changed
The region. Louth was considered part of Ulster until the late 16th century.
 
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The region. Louth was considered part of Ulster until the late 16th century.
Until when precicely? Because if it was for less than 250 years in Ulster and more than 250 years in Leinster(in the game's time frame) then I think it should be in latter one, if not then I'll drop my case
 
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No, I've assumed all Scandis outside the Northern Isles and Sutherland are gaelicised. Though it would be interesting if we had a better guess on that.
Ok I found something(chatgpt is good when you dig down it for sources lol):

"ONw yielded to Gaelic and laterScots in the Isle of Man in the fourteenth century, on Caithness inthe fifteenth, in the Hebrides in the sixteenth. It endured longer inShetland and the Orkneys, which were transferred politically in 1468-9.Their language was known as Nom (from ON norronn). Its forms(as recorded in Shetland) were closest to those of SWN w: -a inf.and wk. fern., ll nn > dl dn or ~~n,n,, pat par> da dar that there,hw > hvfkv. The last official Nw charter is from 1509, but the spokenlanguage lasted into the eighteenth century. Words for daily usagepassed over into the new languages, and of course the place-namesare a rich source of medieval Sc (Marwick 1929; Thorson 1939;Jakobsen 1897, 1928-32, 1936; Hregstad 1900). In Greenland theSc population died out around 1 soo, leaving behind about fifteenrunic inscriptions as evidence of their language (bibliography inDiiwel 1968: 87). Greenlandic shows general kinship with WNwand Ole, perhaps more with the former; it is like Fa in having t for pin pronouns (tana for penna this)."

Page 332 of this:

 
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Some suggestions for Ulster which I must say is already looking pretty tremendous.

Culture changes:

I would add Norse Gael culture to Kilkenny to represent the Mac Sweeney Clan who originally came from Scotland.

New Tags:


I think the province of Letterkenny should go to a Fanad tag to represent the Mac Sweeney Clan. They would start as a vassal of Tyreconnell and should have Norse-Gael culture.
 
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Until when precicely? Because if it was for less than 250 years then I think it should be in Leinster
Why? It became part of Leinster only because it was handy for the English administration when they were reorganising during the plantation period, which may not be at all relevant in any given play through. At game start it was see as part of Ulster.
 
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Why? It became part of Leinster only because it was handy for the English administration when they were reorganising during the plantation period, which may not be at all relevant in any given play through. At game start it was see as part of Ulster.
Because administrative regions change over time and due to the limitations of the game we have to keep the same ones from the beginning to end of the game(1337-1837), therefore I think that the best and most impartial way to approach situations like this is simply to pick the one the was used the most in this time period, even if the reasons why they was created were not nice...
This is the same reason why I think that both Offaly(created in 1556) and Cavan(created in 1584) should be provinces in EU5, also they are still used today despite their history.
Kerry on the other hand(which I just found out was created much later) should not be a province
 
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I am once again here to advocate for the yam yams and ask that we not be lumped in with Birmingham It makes no sense to have Birmingham as a distinct location as It was so small at game start, while not having Dudley as a Location they had comparable populations up untill the 18th century and Dudley had a fort from the 8th century to 1750. Also its very hilly in the West Midlands idk where you got flat lands from
Topology.png
 
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Death of Norse in Ireland -> 1250 at latest?
"This means that the dominant themes in discussion of the contact between Norseand Irish have been phonology and loan-words, although place-names have alsofeatured (e.g. Oftedal 1976). Jackson (1962) shows awareness of the need todistinguish between loan-words and structure in the discussion of Norse influenceon the Celtic languages, but in the case of Irish, at least, he finds evidence ofstructural influence to be lacking. Regarding the survival of Norse speech inIreland, most writers consider that it lasted in Dublin and certain other towns untilshortly after the Norman invasions began in the 1160s, its final demise perhapscoming early in the thirteenth century. The reasons for this judgement arehistorical rather than linguistic—the self-contained nature of many of the Vikingcentres—but it has also been shown that most of the small number of Norse placenames to be found in Ireland passed directly from Norse into English."

Death of Norse in Manx ->1350-1400 at latest? IMO this could be a small 5% minority?
"The date at which Norse finally became extinct on Man has been the subject ofdiffering estimates. Marstrander (1932b, 49) thought some time in the fifteenth century likely, and in this he was followed by Gelling (1970–71, 174), but thedemonstration that one of the principal sources on which they based their conclusions is about a hundred years older than was originally thought has led to arevision of this estimate: Gelling (1978, 257) now offers a conservative ‘sometime after 1300’, Megaw (1978, 279) ‘within a generation or two of the end of thenative dynasty—that is, soon after 1300’.

Death of Norse in the Hebrides ->1450 at latest? IMO this could be a sizeable 25% minority?
"With evidence so scarce, it is hardly surprising that views about the length oftime for which Norse persisted as a spoken language in the Hebrides should havethe appearance of guesswork (see, however, Cox 1991, 479). ‘Probably in the 13thor 14th century’ is Borgstrøm’s seemingly intuitive estimate of the period inwhich Norse was finally superseded by Gaelic (1974, 91), while survival into theearly fifteenth century is mooted as a possibility by Oftedal (1962a, 48), who inan article published in the same year nevertheless offers the more conservativesuggestion that Norse influence on Gaelic language and culture ‘may have continued long after 1266’ (Oftedal 1962b, 118)."

Death of Norse in the Caithness and the rest -> 1850? I imagine earlier in Caithness
"To the extent that opinions were expressed about themanner in which Norn succumbed to Scots, they reflected a general belief in agradual shift between about 1600 and 1850"

From "Viking revaluations"
 
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The state of Britain....
(not the first time I've said that)



At this point I'm mostly looking for feedback on attributes of the locations more than shape or number of them.


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Dave, who should I bribe to get the same flash-correction treatment for the 5-6 jarring location/province errors in Carpathia that have been pending for half a year but no dev dares to look into that abomination of a thread? They're really jarring and bothersome and would take like 10 minutes to correct
 
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I am once again here to advocate for the yam yams and ask that we not be lumped in with Birmingham It makes no sense to have Birmingham as a distinct location as It was so small at game start, while not having Dudley as a Location they had comparable populations up untill the 18th century and Dudley had a fort from the 8th century to 1750.
Screenshot_20250515_194740_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20250515_195054_Chrome.jpg
 
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I can't fault your argument of historical and economical importance. Functionally speaking they should both be represented over towns like Wareham Wool Bridport etc. I think my argument just boils down to aesthetic opinion, I don't think it's possible on the current map scale to divide the county up visually accurately - like following the modern parliamentary lines without moving Dorchester 20 miles west. And in my head canon I would rather see a Dorchester in the south whose population also included Weymouth. But that's just my opinion I don't think there's a right answer.

And I kind of based my suggestion on Bridport/Lyme on the fact that Shaftesbury exists as it's own area and it's not relatively more important in modern times (smaller population than Bridport).

Either way I guess I can just rename it when I start a game.
I agree with you that its a very imperfect solution but its probably the best one at the moment leaving it in the current state, especially if we can just rename locations. Historically however for a game that includes the black death Weymouth should be named purely because it is where England's first arrival of the disease was, though I can imagine the location of arrival would be dynamic.
 
I am once again here to advocate for the yam yams and ask that we not be lumped in with Birmingham It makes no sense to have Birmingham as a distinct location as It was so small at game start, while not having Dudley as a Location they had comparable populations up untill the 18th century and Dudley had a fort from the 8th century to 1750. Also its very hilly in the West Midlands idk where you got flat lands from
reaL.
 
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Dave, who should I bribe to get the same flash-correction treatment for the 5-6 jarring location/province errors in Carpathia that have been pending for half a year but no dev dares to look into that abomination of a thread? They're really jarring and bothersome and would take like 10 minutes to correct
DM me your offer
 
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The state of Britain....
(not the first time I've said that)



At this point I'm mostly looking for feedback on attributes of the locations more than shape or number of them.


View attachment 1299485



View attachment 1299487

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I think the current balance of names and trade goods by location is quite good at least for the Wessex area, As regarding Dorset at least Its primary locations are all named as are its principal exports. Even if swapping the clay and wool might make slightly more sense geographically.

I would suggest however that the Dorchester region also become grasslands as opposed to woods as the land had been cleared for livestock agriculture by the period of the game start, with the woods removed to create its water meadows and fields used for sheep farming.

However well done and thanks to the team for putting so much effort in on the research!
 
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Because administrative regions change over time and due to the limitations of the game we have to keep the same ones from the beginning to end of the game(1337-1837), therefore I think that the best and most impartial way to approach situations like this is simply to pick the one the was used the most in this time period, even if the reasons why they was created were not nice...
This is the same reason why I think that both Offaly(created in 1556) and Cavan(created in 1584) should be provinces in EU5, also they are still used today despite their history.
Kerry on the other hand(which I just found out was created much later) should not be a province
I can see some merit to that argument, but I think greater weight should be placed on the position at game start. Every game played will see 1337, while many won’t last until the 18th or 19th centuries.

In any case, I believe Louth didn’t become part of Leinster until the 1590s (but don’t quote me on that), so it’s more than 250 years anyway.
 
The state of Britain....
(not the first time I've said that)



At this point I'm mostly looking for feedback on attributes of the locations more than shape or number of them.


View attachment 1299485



View attachment 1299487

View attachment 1299488

View attachment 1299489

View attachment 1299490
View attachment 1299491
If you don’t want to change the shape or anything I think it would just make sense to rename Doncaster to Sheffield as it was way more important
 
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