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Tinto Maps #6 Great Britain & Ireland Feedback

9 September 2024 12 May 2025​


What an exciting week we have had, and best of all I finally get to say the name Europa Universalis V. It still feels weird in my mouth after carefully saying Caesar for what feels like a lifetime.

But lo, the day is finally come for the British Isles feedback thread. This short update was supposed to come out a few months ago, but I just had to teach some of you a lesson. Also I had a lot of other things on, like appearing in the announcement show last week.


Here we see the updated topography:

topography.jpg



The updated vegetation:
vegetation.jpg



Many impassable barriers have been added, for example the various peaks of the Pennines and the Wicklow Mountains. The Shannon also now poses a more significant barrier between east and west Ireland, with only a few crossing points often guarded by stockades.


Here we have the Locations map, bear in mind they are only showing the default English names but many places have Gaelic or Brythonic versions.

locations.jpg




Every country has had a general increase in density.

England, in particular the south, has had a big revamp at Location and Province level to more accurately reflect the historical counties, many of them pre-Norman in origin and many of them still in use today in some form. Westminster as a capital has been killed and rolled into a monolithic London.




Provinces:
provinces.jpg


Areas:

areas.jpg



And political mapmode (with overlord colouring off):
political.png




And Dynasties:
dynasty.jpg


We have added the Earldom of Orkney in the northern isles as a Norwegian vassal. Meanwhile the Palatinate of Durham and Chester have both been promoted from a special set of buildings to vassals under England. Wales has also been limited strictly to the Principality of Wales, with the marcher lords existing as very low control locations under England.

Ireland has had a major rework in terms of locations and tags. Mostly there have been minor Irish chieftaincies added. As always we are grateful to the many suggestions that have come from the forumers.



Culture:
culture.jpg



The most obvious culture change is that English has had Northumbrian split off, to represent the divide between southern and northern dialects and attitudes. A practical example of this is how in the south the English are more friendly to Normans, whereas the Northumbrians hate them (the northern shires still bear the scars of the Harrying of the North). Northumbrians and Scots also spoke a similar form of English in this period, so it helps to set them up as a sort of middleman.

Norwegians in northern Scotland and the nearby North Atlantic have also been split into Norn.


As a bonus, Court Language, showing 3 main worlds: Gaelic, Anglo-French, and Roman Catholic Bishoprics.

court_language.jpg



There have also been some changes to Raw Goods, as you can see here:

raw.jpg





We still have time to make some changes, so let us know what we can do to push this even further towards where it needs to be.

I won’t show Population numbers right now, as it’s pending a proper rework. Among other things, the idea is to reduce the population numbers in England.
 
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Okay, if I have a one major remaining comment, it's that Perthshire could be represented a lot better. Firstly, the location borders are still very rough and angular in a way none of the surrounding ones are any more. Secondly, a number of the names are either inaccurate or have much better choices available.
  • Aberfeldy first appears in historical records in the 16th century as a minor village and has little relevance outside an association with Robert Burns, whereas the castle of Blair, seat of the Earls of Atholl and later Clan Murray, was an important Highland fortress since the 13th century.
  • Clackmannan is well within the Dunfermline location, and as a town on the lower Forth river, shielded on the North by the Ochil hills it had much more to do with the burghs of Fife and Stirling than the Highland bordelands of South Perthsire. I would rename it Auchterarder, a key fortress and town north of the Ochils, built on lands confiscated from the Earl of Strathearn.
  • Finally, Strathearn is not only not a settlement, but completely misplaced: the historical Strathearn is almost the exact shape and size of the current "Clackmannan" in the Earn valley! The Strathearn location here is almost the exact same place as the province of Breadalbane, sandwiched in the upper Tay valley between two ranges of the Grampians, and an interesting geographical chokepoint. Balloch, at the mouth of Loch Tay would be the main fortress of Clan Campbell.

Redrawing the borders here also allows us to emphasise Central Scotland's interesting strategic geography, with the many ranges and passes of the Grampian mountains. The natural borders of the provinces here tend to match watersheds very nicely. I've redrawn the Dunkeld location to allow the Auchterarder location to function as the Earldom of Strathearn did - a key Gaelic-dominated lynchpin between highland and lowland, and to give Perth more character as a lowland city controlling the mouth of the Tay.

Also, Scotland absolutely needs more lochs than just Ness and Lomond! I've taken the liberty of adding Loch Tay, Loch Earn, Loch Katrine, and Loch Rannoch to spruce up the highland locations here.

If Strathearn is to be held by Balliol, it should be the Auchterarder (currently Clackmannan) location rather than Balloch. I can't find strong sources as to who exactly held the castle in 1337, but while Balliol did forfeit the Earl of Strathearn's titles, he never successfully installed his preferred claimant.

As for culture: the most up-to-date studies I've found indicate that even by 1400 there was little Scots spoken on the north bank of the Clyde - Dumbarton should be predominantly Highlander. Stirling should be evenly split now the location has incorporated the Gaelic Menteith region. Dunkeld and Auchterarder should have very few Scots-speakers, if any, and Blair and Balloch none at all. Fife should also probably have more Gaelic-speakers, particularly in the centre and west.


Additionally, Scotland has a bunch of locations with regional names rather than settlement names, and after a bunch of trawling I've found some good ones for each location. I also added some more lochs, because they're nice.

Lochaber and Badenoch can be renamed Inverlochy and Lochindorb respectively, the two key castles built by John Comyn, lord of Badenoch and Lochaber in the late 13th century. Inverlochy in particular would be the site of a number of important battles across its history.


Lorne is now Dunollie, an old Dal Riata fortress, was refortified by the McDouglas clan before it was seized for their support of Balliol, though they would later regain it.
Inveraray, which was founded in the 16th century, is now Duntrune, another McDouglas castle.

Kilkerran is the old name for Campbelltown in Kintyre, which was still a settlement and diocesal centre in 1337.

Kilmun is an old town on the Cowal peninsula, originally founded as a 7th-century monastic settlement.

Arran should both include the Isle of Bute, with which it formed a county and probably be named Rothesay after its main settlement.


I've also got optional names for the Hebrides based on the seats of the lords of each of the isles at the time. I'm not sure if the rule about naming locations for settlements applies to islands too. Also the border between Lewis and Harris needs to be fixed - it's currently way off.

Lastly, I am demanding one whole extra location: Maybole!!! Ayrshire has always been always been split into three parts, and the southernmost was distinctively more similar to Galloway than it was to the rest of the shire - Gaelic-speaking and far less urbanised. It was also the Earldom of Carrick - the original home of the Bruce dynasty. Ayr is currently a massive location, and it also lets you add wasteland for the highest points of the rugged Galloway hills between Kenmure and Ayr.


Galloway's also seemingly taken the western lobe off of Dumfries-shire, which I've returned. If that makes Dumfries too big a location, you can always add Annan in the east to represent Annandale and Eskdale, but it's up to you...
While I appreciate the work that went into this post, I really have to disagree with a lot of the proposed changes for Perthshire. The locations as they are seem very reasonable, and there are some issues with how a number of these locations have been represented on your proposed map.
1747386427408.png

First of all, Loch Lomond is already represented very well within the Dumbarton location. To include it in Stirling makes no sense. Balloch, on the southern shore of Loch Lomond doesn't make sense when added to the map that far to the north of Dumbarton (and especially north of Stirling!). The location north of Stirling represents Strathearn. I'd be happy for that name to remain, but could also see it being changed to Auchterarder if they are looking to use local town names instead.

I don't understand the new Auchterarder location as you've drawn it though -- it seems to straddle the Ochils, whereas the current Clackmannan location is perfectly suitable. Clackmannan represents the area between Dunfermline and Stirling, and south of the Ochils. The most recent map revision has the hills modelled with impassable terrain, which was a very good idea. Any armies would still need to move via Stirling through Strathearn (Auchterarder) to Perth, which matches the geography as currently represented.

I did a very toddlerish sketch of the area, highlighting the areas represented by the current locations, including Clacks nestled between Stirling and Dunfermline. It really makes no sense for Balloch to be a location, let alone one placed to the north of Stirling.

1747386568405.png


I didn't see any issues with the geography of Perth, Dunkeld, or Aberfeldy (Blair). Aberfeldy isn't as anachronistic as you've described it, and does show up on some of the maps I've seen that reflect the earlier part of the game's timeframe, such as David MacPherson's map of Scotland in 1400. I've pulled a snip of it below, which shows the location of Dunkeld, Aberfeldy, and Blair castle. Aberfeldy is much better suited for for the location, as Blair castle is awkwardly in between the current Dunkeld, Aberfeledy, and Badenoch locations.

1747386259367.png


For the naming of some of the more remote northern locations, I'd hope that the devs opt against simply naming locations after castles or fortifications there. I could understand naming these locations after prominent settlements, but many of these locations wouldn't have those as we would conceive of them. I'd be happy for places like Badenoch to remain -- and if they are to be renamed, to name them after settlements like Kingussie.

Same for the islands. It seems confusing the rename many of them when the island's name sums the location up very well, and in many cases there would not have been a very prominent settlement there during the game's timeframe. As a side note, I'd be cautious about lumping together Arran and Bute as well.

I would agree with a lot of the culture changes you're suggestion -- that Highland culture should be much better represented in the west of Scotland, with Scots being confined more to lowland areas, particularly in the east.

I'd also agree with the suggestion for a third location in Ayrshire, and I agree with most of the suggestions from your map below. A new location covering either Maybole, Girvan, or Turnberry would represent the fairly significant differences (geographically and culturally) between the south of Ayrshire and its heartland. I would only disagree with the renaming of Stranraer to Wigtown. Stranraer would be a much more suitable, more prominent, and strategically significant settlement.
1747386993358.png
 
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I don’t think the Rochester location should be wetlands, while it’s the end of the River Medway it was already a built up area by the start of the game (it got city status in 1211 and lost it (by accident) in 1998), it’s also the historic location for the major Royal Navy Dockyard at Chatham (so the location should have good natural harbour level if it didn’t already). It should start with town status and be either hills due to being on the Kent Downs or flatland like the rest of the Kent Downs except Dover. As for the good for the area, while the area does have leading English winemakers in modern times I don’t think they were around at the time of the game. I think the game would be better off representing the extensive chalk mining industry that dominated the area with something like Stone or Marble. If you want the Kent wineries to be represented I’d move them south into the Tonbridge location.
 
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While I appreciate the work that went into this post, I really have to disagree with a lot of the proposed changes for Perthshire. The locations as they are seem very reasonable, and there are some issues with how a number of these locations have been represented on your proposed map.
View attachment 1300100
First of all, Loch Lomond is already represented very well within the Dumbarton location. To include it in Stirling makes no sense. Balloch, on the southern shore of Loch Lomond doesn't make sense when added to the map that far to the north of Dumbarton (and especially north of Stirling!). The location north of Stirling represents Strathearn. I'd be happy for that name to remain, but could also see it being changed to Auchterarder if they are looking to use local town names instead.

I don't understand the new Auchterarder location as you've drawn it though -- it seems to straddle the Ochils, whereas the current Clackmannan location is perfectly suitable. Clackmannan represents the area between Dunfermline and Stirling, and south of the Ochils. The most recent map revision has the hills modelled with impassable terrain, which was a very good idea. Any armies would still need to move via Stirling through Strathearn (Auchterarder) to Perth, which matches the geography as currently represented.

I did a very toddlerish sketch of the area, highlighting the areas represented by the current locations, including Clacks nestled between Stirling and Dunfermline. It really makes no sense for Balloch to be a location, let alone one placed to the north of Stirling.

View attachment 1300102

I didn't see any issues with the geography of Perth, Dunkeld, or Aberfeldy (Blair). Aberfeldy isn't as anachronistic as you've described it, and does show up on some of the maps I've seen that reflect the earlier part of the game's timeframe, such as David MacPherson's map of Scotland in 1400. I've pulled a snip of it below, which shows the location of Dunkeld, Aberfeldy, and Blair castle. Aberfeldy is much better suited for for the location, as Blair castle is awkwardly in between the current Dunkeld, Aberfeledy, and Badenoch locations.

View attachment 1300098

For the naming of some of the more remote northern locations, I'd hope that the devs opt against simply naming locations after castles or fortifications there. I could understand naming these locations after prominent settlements, but many of these locations wouldn't have those as we would conceive of them. I'd be happy for places like Badenoch to remain -- and if they are to be renamed, to name them after settlements like Kingussie.

Same for the islands. It seems confusing the rename many of them when the island's name sums the location up very well, and in many cases there would not have been a very prominent settlement there during the game's timeframe. As a side note, I'd be cautious about lumping together Arran and Bute as well.

I would agree with a lot of the culture changes you're suggestion -- that Highland culture should be much better represented in the west of Scotland, with Scots being confined more to lowland areas, particularly in the east.

I'd also agree with the suggestion for a third location in Ayrshire, and I agree with most of the suggestions from your map below. A new location covering either Maybole, Girvan, or Turnberry would represent the fairly significant differences (geographically and culturally) between the south of Ayrshire and its heartland. I would only disagree with the renaming of Stranraer to Wigtown. Stranraer would be a much more suitable, more prominent, and strategically significant settlement.
View attachment 1300105
So what I think you've done when referencing your maps is taken the coastline as an anchor point, and then assumed the wasteland is in the right position to be the Ochills - it isn't! The geography of Perthshire in this setup is really distorted.

Here's one of the sources I've consulted while building my feedback: a GIS map with borders of the old Scottish provinces. Whether these precise borders are a) accurate or b) good for gameplay is another matter - I've deviated from them slightly in my proposal (white borders):

1747394340288.png

I've plotted the settlements I've proposed as centres for locations in black - Clackmannan is in red, on the north bank of the Forth. I've also filled the Lochs I wanted to add in blue: the one in the Sterling location is a combination of Loch Katrine and Loch Venachar, not Loch Lomond. The Ochill hills are are between Fife and Strathearn here - as you can see they're at a similar latitude to the easternmost point of Fife. The in-game wasteland is north of Perth, at the Highland Fault. Auchterarder is between these two ranges - exactly where the current Clackmannan location is.

1747394824686.png

To illustrate this, I've overlaid the GIS map on the current location setup, anchoring on the coastlines, before drawing over the proposed boundaries again. As you can see, Clackmannan is firmly within the Dunfermline location, and the Clackmannan location overlaps almost entirely with Strathearn and contains Auchterarder.

As for the castle names for locations:

I agree on the islands! That was just some extra research I did in case the Paradox policy on locations included islands. I still think Stornoway and Rothesay are good names, though - they were well-established Norse towns, and would be relevant through the whole period.

On the mainland, though:
  • Kilmun and Kilkerran were regular settlements, with Kilkerran staying relevant through the whole period as Campbelltown.
  • Dunollie was an old royal centre and well-known landmark, and the village around it would eventually become Oban.
  • Inverlochy was a very relevant location, and still exists as town to this day.
  • Lochindorb might be an awkward one, as it's outside the key Badenoch area. Kingussie is at the site of Ruthven castle though - either would be appropriate. I prefer Ruthven for this time period.
  • Blair was the centre of the entire Atholl region, and had a number of villages spring up around it during the time period. If you keep regional names for the Highlands, just call this one Atholl.
 
I also want to suggest that the Isle of Sheppey be added to the map as part of either the Rochester or Canterbury location, size wise it sits between Rum (part of Skye) and Benbecula (part of Uist) which can both be seen on the map as their own landmasses.
 
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God damn. I haven't been following this thread after the initial announcement but noticed it had some dev replies, honestly these comments post-feedback release have been more exciting than the initial post!
 
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I would like to suggest potentially renaming the Location ‘Glossop’ to ‘Bakewell’ (Derbyshire Province, Mercia Area).

Bakewell has been a market town since the 1200’s [https://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol5/pp23-43], and is a couple of miles from Chatsworth House, the seat of the Duke of Devonshire, giving it some political prominence during the time period. Also, while the Bakewell tart/pudding is outside the games time frame, it does give some name recognition for those not familiar with the area.

Now, I’m basing this on assuming that the location in question roughly represents in and around the peak district, or roughly the areas encompassed by the hundreds of High Peak/Peck and potentially Wirksworth/Wyrkesworth [https://www.british-history.ac.uk/magna-britannia/vol5/xi-xvii]. Depending on what area is being represented this make not make much sense; I didn’t really try messing around with laying maps on top of each other. Glossop lies very close to the top of the Location, possibly even outside of it, but equally its also possible Bakewell may pass into Chesterfield Location. Historically both were part of the High-Peaks hundred at least.

Also I’m not particularly knowledgeable about the history of area, and to be perfectly honest this suggestion has been driven by that, at least to me, Glossop seemed like an ‘odd’ choice to represent the peak district/northern Derbyshire. My familiarity with Derbyshire is more with the south of the county, so I’m far more familiar with the ‘southern side’ of the peaks, while Glossop is on the northern side, so that may have biased it abit. Essentially I set about doing some light research (read as googling) to see if there was anywhere that seemed more fitting, and settled on suggesting Bakewell. What I’m saying is I’m more than happy to be contradicted by someone who knows more about what their talking about; or that I’m wrong about something.

Given how rural the area was in the time period there didn’t seem to be a very clear stand out choice that I could see. A couple of other potential suggestions;

Ashbourne; Has some wider recognition due to the Shrovetide football match. However, its on the edge of the peaks, and its possible that for someone more familiar with the south of the county, Ashbourne’s association with the area may be in the same way Glossop may do for those looking at from the north. Also it may slip into the Derby Location.

Buxton; Used in the first shown version of the locations map and geographically central, but as pointed out in a comment to that map, its prominence was more later/after the games time scale.

Matlock; The current local government for a large part of the peaks is based here, but it appears to be similar to Buxton in coming to prominence later on; and likely lies in the Chesterfield Location.


Also as a more general comment, it feels like there are perhaps too many impassible zones. While they may represent relatively difficult to pass areas in comparison to the rest of the island, in the context of the world it feels like a lower bar is being used on what should be impassable. Then again this is my gut feelings, not evidence.

[Edits; had problems posting, so posted in chuncks]
As a follow up to my last post, after doing some more searching, I would like to amend my suggestion to;

Renaming Glossop to either Chapel-en-le-Frith or Bakewell.

Bakewell I mentioned before as being (in my opinion) a more suitable name for the Location; while similar to Glossop in being the site of local markets and important enough in Norman times to have a motte-and-bailey castle, it is also next to Chatsworth House, the seat of the Dukes of Devonshire, which was built and used in the relevant time period. (And while not so relevant, likely having more name recognition from players due to the famous Bakewell tart/pudding; even though that is more recent that the games time frame.)

Various sites mention that Chapel-en-le-Frith with the monicker the “Capital of the Peak”, including wikipedia ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel-en-le-Frith], unfortunately without a citation). After some searching to see if I could find something that justified this name, I did find “Chapel-en-le-Frith, Its History and its People” by WM. Braylesford Bunting, 1940, via a digitised copy at [https://textarchive.ru/c-1537145-pall.html]. (I only skimmed some of it, its not an easy read, I think partially due to the digitisation).

While there has been a settlement there since at least the Normans, he argues that church/chapel was set up there around 1225 expressly with the idea to form a town to act as the capital and local administrative centre for the peaks. To what success this had is somewhat lost to history, but there is mention that for example there are records of some form of local court for the area were held there until 1879 (mentions Swainmote Courts, Court Leet and County Courts), though doesn’t list how wide the area they covered were.

Both Buxton and Bakewell get described by various (mostly travel) sites as being ‘the Capital of the Peaks/the High Peak ’. However these names seem for Buxton to be more due to events outside the relevant time period, and for Bakewell being recognised as some sort of capital of the modern peak district national part since 1951.

(Same comments as before on being particularly knowlageable, potential bias, ect still stand)
 
i think the map looks really incredible as is, but i thought i'd leave a few small suggestions that i think might be of use.

a lot of the location borders in the midlands look to be based on straight lines and come out quite angular, so i've tried redrawing them to follow the borders of the 'hundreds' that each shire was divided into. i couldn't resist adding a few locations. warwickshire's county seat (warwick...) is the only county seat to not have a location on the current map, while i think separating off the more forested, less populated and more welsh location of clun in shropshire would help portray the ethnic split in the shire more accurately. i've also split the rather large stoke location into stoke and leek, allowing for the representation of stoke's pottery indsutry. i'd also rename rutland to its county seat, oakham.

midlandspng.png


i've also drawn up the other maps for these changes. shropshire had a strong wool industry (“In 1343 Shropshire wool was rated at a higher value than that of almost any other English county”) and barley was grown in oakham (rutland). the wild game location in south worcestershire represents the royal forest of feckenham. these changes also allow for the clay industry in stoke to be represented, and the black country (warwickshire)'s coal industry. even if no locations are added i'd suggest switching birmingham from wool to coal.

midlandsmore.png


i'd also suggest adding the town of beverley to the east riding and removing selby (which was of far lesser importance and not within the riding's borders.

bev.png


beverley was one of the ten richest towns in england in 1400, and flourished off the wool trade. if no locations are redrawn i'd still suggest renaming selby to beverley.

bevmore.png


lastly, the middlesex province still follows the modern (1960s) greater london boundaries. i've tried to make a map that reflects its historic borders while still allowing it two locations (like bedfordshire or worcestershire). uxbridge was a prominent market down and about as far away from london as you can get within middlesex. southwark and barking, whilst adjacent to london, remained under the control of their respective counties, which is why all of london's elizabethan theatres were south of the river, outside of city juristiction.

middx.png


barking is historically one of england's largest fish ports, whilst colchester had a strong wool industry. surrey had little agriculture on account of poor soil, so i've switched reigate to stone, its largest industry and the building material for most of london's early modern architecture. i'd switch reigate to stone if no border changes are made.

middxmore.png
 
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In Laith's Video, we are shown that the Population of London is 67,000. This seems to understate the population of the location. The London location matches the borders of Middlesex, which is estimated to have a population of 77,399 in 1290. If we assume that the population growth of Middlesex from 1290 to 1337 matched the growth from 1086 to 1290, then the population of the London location would be closer to 90,000.

 
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I don't love it. Incidentally I'm tempted to merge the Home Counties with East Anglia to make them more evenly-sized. But I don't have good flavor name for Home Counties or the conglomerate of Home Counties + East Anglia. South East England feels a bit contrived or boring.
You could divide those southern areas like this:

Cornwall: Cornwall, Devon

Wessex: Somerset, Dorset, Gloucestershire, Hampshire, Wiltshire

Middlesex: Middlesex, Bedfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire, Berkshire

Sussex: Sussex, Surrey, Kent

But it does leave them rather small. I noticed Hebrides was only two provinces so that’s why I suggested it, but not sure this feels great either.
 
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