Admittedly trying to pull of Spain frankly bonkers plan for China would be funny as hell, if completely and utterly impossible
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I believe it is possible to enter a relatively long - lasting era of the Southern and Northern Dynasties, or even the Three Kingdoms period. However, a long - term Warring States period (similar to the Spring and Autumn Period) is unlikely. Looking at Chinese history, the speed of re - unification after each period of division has been getting faster and faster. This is obviously related to development and technological progress.
Nevertheless, the formation of a long - standing Southern Dynasty remains a possible outcome. Therefore, I finally made an assumption about the situation of a modern - era China during the Southern and Northern Dynasties.
I haven't started writing it yet because it's really too late in China right now. When I update the third part tomorrow, I should mention these hypothetical scenarios.
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At several points parts of the Spanish Government considered invading China and setting up a colony in the south. To keep control they intend to follow a similar strategy to the new world, marry into local families and set up their caste system. Specifically however they wanted to try and copy their new world efforts and replace most Chinese people with mixed Iberio-Chinese
Needless to say the population disbalance would have made that rather unfeesable.
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Yeah I do wonder what effects an Ibero-Chinese Catholic Empire would have had during the 16th century, the Protestants would have had a heart attack
Also the possibility of a Habsburg whose jointly Holy Roman Emperor and the Chinese Emperor would have been wild
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...aaaaaand that's now an achievement in the game.
Achievement hunters on suicide watch
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As the Habsburgs achieve true imperial dominance and claim the 4 great Empires of Antiquity, Rome, Persia, India and China. Successful place a Habsburg on each of the empires thrones, get the Empires to cover all territory they historically did and convert them all to Catholic.
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If it’s possible I want to try doing this as a German prince. Just somehow take over China as holy Roman emperor. Guess it depends on if taking over China is worth it vs just getting trade rights.
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The Chinese enterprise. A very sane world domination proposal.
Some versions of the plan included conquering Japan first to then use the japanese population to conquer China. The final objective of the enterprise being to conquer central Asia opening a second front against the ottomans leading to the final defeat of islam, or something like that.
Keep in mind that during the heights of the spanish empire some believed that it was Spain's god given mission to unify all the peoples of the world under a single faith (via world conquest and religious persecutions, obviously), ultimately achieving eternal peace and fraternity (they were basically JRPG villains, yes).
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To add on this, Mongols were eager to submit to the Manchus because:
1. Nurhaci and his son Khong Taiji was quite sympathetic towards the Mongols, even proclaiming that they were brotherly people;
2. Mongols were quite weak from fighting against each others;
3. Some people like Zanabazar was willing to surrender sovereignity in exchange for stability and enlightenment to save their culture (he would later become a mentor and advisor to Kangxi Emperor and start the artistic and theological renaissance in Mongolia).
For Manchus, it was a jackpot, as they could now style themselves as the successor of Great Yuan, and access the battered but still relevant Mongol Horde to clear out the Dzungars (off the face of the earth) in exchange for giving what Mongols wanted: no Chinese settlers in their lands (later attempts at challenging this very rule (New Economic Policy) in late Qing constitutional monarchy prompted Mongolians to simply seek independence). Intermarriages with Chingissid dynasty was simply them solidifying their legitimacy, as you said.
There is a theory that the origin of the name Manchu is derived from "Mongol-Jurchen Confederation" which I find it amusing, but it does sound like a crackpot conspiracy theory tho.
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The yellow color in the upper right corner is the gene of ancient Mongolians, while the genes of modern Mongolians are biased towards Han people, which can obviously only be explained by a large amount of mixed blood
About the Yuan Dynasty and the integration of Han genes into Mongolian.
I don't understand why I have to keep discussing genes. The issue of genes in my previous reply was not the point at all, but just an evidence of ethnic integration.
you said "The yellow color in the upper right corner is the gene of ancient Mongolians" but
and also let's see again what you said at "Explain everything about China from a geographical perspective" topic
" fact that many nomadic peoples were actually descendants of the Han people "
" A survey shows that Genghis Khan has royal genes from the Han Dynasty "
It is really good point, why you start talk about gene which is weird and too much nationalism at this topic? and how about think about reverse version of you like "talk about the history of northern China and the nomadic peoples that ruled China, and say that the northern Chinese are descendants of the nomadic peoples"
I don't want to talk about genetics on the forum either, so can we stop here?
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There are indeed many Mongolian descendants in northern China. Is there anything wrong with that? I mentioned the Han genes of the Mongols just to show that the Han people would rather flee to the grasslands to escape the empire established by the Han people, and regard the Mongols as their compatriots. Is there anything wrong with that? I hate nationalists, don't confuse me with such things.
And this might be red or something
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Your problem is that you change your words and make choices what is your taste.
First, nomadic peoples change their residences more frequently than sedentary peoples. To completely equate ancient Mongolia with modern Mongolia based on their current geographical location is like considering the numerous nomadic peoples that originated on the Mongolian Plateau as Mongols just because they are currently occupied by Mongolia.
Second, there are numerous ethnic groups between modern Han Chinese and ancient Mongols. I really don't understand why you skip them and connect Han Chinese and Mongols.
Finally, the ancient Han people of the upper reaches of the Yellow River, who the modern Han people consider their roots, are unfortunately much closer to the Koreans and Japanese than the modern Han people. According to your logic, the Koreans and Japanese are the people who inherit the roots of the Han people, and the modern Han people are the people who have mixed too much with the people they say are foreign peoples. So who the hell has the damn Han genes?
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My initial point was that the Han people hated the dynasties established by the Han people, so they ran to the grasslands and mixed blood. The reason I mentioned genes was to prove this point. You are just accusing me of being a nationalist. Then the question is, why would a nationalist think that the Han people have more in common with the grassland nomads than with the dynasties established by the Han people? As for why Koreans and Japanese have so many genes from the ancient Yellow River region, it is because the ancestors of the Han people didn't belong to the Central Plains, but invaded it during the Yellow Emperor period, and the locals fled to many regions including Korea and Japan. If you try say that I'm a nationalist, based on this point of view, am I a Japanese or Korean nationalist? Or even a Dongyi nationalist?
you said
" fact that many nomadic peoples were actually descendants of the Han people "
" A survey shows that Genghis Khan has royal genes from the Han Dynasty "
I think this is third time quote about what you talked initial.
if you change your words like there are some mix between with han and mongol people, how i can call you nationalist?
now you are denying the agreement and logic about traditional hans origin, how i can call you nationalist?
you are good dreamer and storyteller not nationalist.
In China, we describe such an absurd idea as "a person with an insatiable greed trying to swallow an elephant whole" / "人心不足蛇吞象" (literally: "a heart that never knows contentment would try to swallow an elephant").
The plan was roughly as follows: the Spanish governor of the Philippines harbored the delusion of landing 2,000 men in Guangzhou, then launching an attack on China. In the process, they intended to massively conscript Chinese people as auxiliary forces—much like their conquest of the American empires.
Ah, the posts on Reddit often brim with fanciful, surreal imaginings, completely disregarding the role of geography. Nations that can exist while entirely ignoring geographical conditions could only come into being after 1900. (And almost all of them are fixated on the fantasy of a fragmented China, which often makes me wonder if China started World War II.)
I think perhaps the crowns of the Caliphs of the Arab Empire and the Khans of the nomadic empires are also worthy of being seized.
I don’t think it would have any impact... China is too far away. And the biggest problem is that this would suddenly create tens of thousands of new saints and a bunch of festivals. Plus, there’s a very serious issue: Chinese historical records predate the Bible, and if you include those mythological eras, they even predate the Great Flood.
It probably wouldn't be worth it, but I think it's worth attempting to gain control over Shandong Province. After all, Germany did exercise a certain degree of control here at one point.
Amidst the Spanish conquistadors' overwhelming onslaught upon the Indigenous peoples of the Americas, they lost all reason, believing the world lay at their feet, ripe for reshaping at will. But the concept of a "Fallen Empire" might just teach them a lesson in humility.
Just kidding. Honestly, early cartographic inaccuracies likely fueled their hubris. If you examine those primitive maps, you'll notice Japan drawn disproportionately large, while China appears undersized. This distortion might have led the Spanish to misjudge China as a mere middle - or small - sized state. In truth, even when the Ming Empire had contracted to its core territories, it still boasted a population roughly five times that of the Ottoman Empire—around 120 million people—and a landmass of comparable size, approximately 4.8 million square kilometers. Moreover, its influence rivaled that of the Ottomans; numerous medium and small states across Southeast Asia and Indonesia remained within the Ming tributary system, adhering to Beijing's directives.
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That is a good way to put it. The conquest of the Americas certainly led to the rise of delussions amongst some individuals, and while the more deluded were just a niche group, it could certainly be said that in a way, the Empire was largely run on delussions and dogmatic faith in ideological rigidity.
Of course, everything about the plan was pure madness. While some aspects about the size and population of China were probably understimated, the plan proponents largely believed that after two relatively small forces (numbering a total of 20000 men) captured Guangzhou and Fuzhou they would be able to bribe enough governors and generals and incite the populace to rise in revolt against the emperor, to march to the capital relatively unopposed.
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