Idk The US clearly is Britain's rowdy child that found home life too stuffy, fell out with mom and moved out at 16 and now kinda has a wholesome love/hate relationship. with mom and their siblings.
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Because the US is populated largely by the descendents of British colonists, the same can't be said for Vietnam and ChinaIdk The US clearly is Britain's rowdy child that found home life too stuffy, fell out with mom and moved out at 16 and now kinda has a wholesome love/hate relationship. with mom and their siblings.
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The pre-history of Vietnam ends with Chinese rule and the history of Vietnam starts with Chinese rule. Prior to Chinese rule, you had illiterate, disparate tribes.
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Incorrect it begins around 500bc with the Dong Son culture, when we see the earliest clear archaeological evidence of an organized and complex society and the formation of An lac and Van Lang. To add to that to say "China ruled Vietnam" is inaccurate, what they ruled was Northern Vietnam, South Vietnam was dominated by Champa kingdoms well into the time North Vietnam became independent of China.
Its more accurate to say, northern Vietnam was a reluctant part of China for a millennium, because the Vietnamese did revolt and try to throw off Chinese domination notably the Trung sisters in the early first century AD and Lady Trieu in the 3rd century, before another revolt gains the Vietnamese a short period of independence between 544 and 602. The game also starts less than a century before Ngo Quyen finally gains Vietnam a lasing state of independence in 938 and the formation of Dai Viet
History doesn't require writing to be history. We don't consider The pre columbian histories of Mesoamerica and the Andes as prehistoric, nor do we consider the Indus Valley Civilization or the BMAC prehistoric despite their being no written records of their own.
Personally I think China as a hegemony is big enough as it is without needing to add northern Vietnam to it. Its not like losing the three or four duchy kingdom that it will in all lightlyhood be will turn China into a paper tiger barely able to hold off Nomads and Tibetans while waiting for an inevitable Mongol yoke...
Besides that it Gives an neat optional goal for a China game in 876. Keep the Viets pacified or crushed long enough to de jure drift North Vietnam into the Chinese hemogeny.
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Prehistory - Wikipedia
it is in fact more complex than just "writing vs no writing"
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Take that up with Wikipedia then because they are the ones that define Vietnamese history beginning in 500BC...
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The two sentences prior to the first sentence of the blurb you sent:Prehistory - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
it is in fact more complex than just "writing vs no writing"
Prehistory, also called pre-literary history, is the period of human history between the first known use of stone tools by hominins c. 3.3 million years ago and the beginning of recorded history with the invention of writing systems. The use of symbols, marks, and images appears very early among humans, but the earliest known writing systems appeared c. 5,200 years ago.
Followed by the first sentence of what you sent:
It took thousands of years for writing systems to be widely adopted, with writing having spread to almost all cultures by the 19th century. The end of prehistory therefore came at different times in different places, and the term is less often used in discussing societies where prehistory ended relatively recently.
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And then goes on to explain that this is an outdated definition and modern historiography does not tend to use it, yeah
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The period of Vietnamese "history" from 500-111BC is a legendary/mythical period with no written records until the southward expansion of the Qin Dynasty.
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and right after that...
"the term is less often used in discussing societies where prehistory ended relatively recently. It is based on an old conception of history that without written records there could be no history. The most common conception today is that history is based on evidence, however the concept of prehistory hasn't been completely discarded."
We have Direct Archeological evidence of the development of an increasingly complex and structured society in northern Vietnam for the centuries preceding the Chinese conquest...
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Theres room to quibble about the definition of prehistory but surely you can see how "Vietnam had no history before China conquered them" comes off as deragatory and dismissive, right? Even if we accept there was no written "history" people still lived there, they had a culture and a civilization and we can know things about them through various forms of evidence, their story doesn't start when they become subjects of an empire.
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Nope were still stuck in the 19th, century when anything less than classical Greek or Egyptian meant you were little better than cavemen waiting for a proper civilized people to rescue you from yourselves and your inability to not be a savage creature little better than an animal...
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The point was that prehistory has a definition, and based on that definition, Vietnam was prehistoric prior to Chinese rule.
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You can feel free to alter the definition if you want, but then the definition needs to be adjusted and applied consistently for everyone instead of only in cases where groups of people don't meet the existing definition. By this definition, we have the Chinese, Greek, Mesopotamian, etc., civilizations starting in the Neolithic as opposed to during the Early Bronze Age.
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But in 867, Annam was still an undisputed part of China, wasn't it? Since the Han Dynasty's conquest of the Nanyue Kingdom, it had never been separated from China for more than a century before that. By the logic of the game, Annam was undoubtedly Chinese territory. However, I agree with the modification for the starting years 1066 and 1178.
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Someone tell me again why Serbia, Sicily, Armenia, Venice etc belongs in the ERE’s de jure region or how make belief French empires has Switzerland under it’s de jure area but Vietnam shouldn’t be in China’s despite near continuous rule of China?
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Because in the majority of the cases you describe they did. Ironically the only one that actually did originate in the Bronze age is Greek, since the indo-europeans arrived in Europe in the early bronze age. In china you have the neolithic Longshan culture and succeeding Erlitou culture. Which chronologically matches up to the Xia Dynasty, the first historically mentioned Chinese dynasty. The origin of written records doesn't magically kick start complex Civilizations suddenly just building cities, they had thousands of years of history themselves when they first started writing, History that we find evidence of quite amply when we go looking for it...
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De Jure boundaries are honestly fairly arbitrary and ahistorical in general, but they have utility to help guide the AI and players towards conquering along historically and geographically sensible lines even if the idea of a rightful legal organization of the territory is usually a fiction. In the case of Annan being de jure part of Yue and thus the Chinese hegemony will probably make it far less likely that any independent Vietnamese ruler will be able to stay independent, which would not be right for this time period. Unless of course there is some event or decision that allows it to change to a different de jure empire during a period of self rule, as happened historically.
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