Tinto Flavour #26 - 10th June 2025 - Korea and Manchuria

[Freshplayer]

No, this is a banner used by the Jurchen Jin dynasty, as seen in images such as here:

View attachment 1316508

No, they used a variety of flags.

View attachment 1316495
This picture is often cut out of part of it and used as proof of the similarity between the Jurchen flag and the Manchuko flag.
However, there are two checkered flags in the front of this picture. Why not use checkered flags?
Moreover, Manchu and Jurchen are not completely the same. This is how Hong Taiji, the founder of Manchu, promoted it, so using this flag is not representative.

Like these:

 

[zeruosi]

Rather than Later Jin can you just call them Jin? Their official name was Jin, the "later" part was added to distinguish them from the Jurchen dynasty that existed before the Mongol conquest which I doubt is a releasable

No, the official name of the Later Jin was indeed "Later Jin." This was because Nurhaci, much like Zhu Yuanzhang, was an illiterate who knew little about history.

He arbitrarily appended a suffix meant for later dynastic distinction to his own state title. Thus, the official designation of his regime was simply "Later Jin"—no more, no less.

This is the only Chinese dynasty in history with such an anomalous naming convention.

 

[zeruosi]

I know there are only seven culturally defined clothing styles at launch, but could we at least have the Jurchens and the Chinese they ruled depicted with shaved heads before proper queue hairstyles are introduced in the game? After all, the shaving of heads and adoption of Manchu dress was a highly significant event in Chinese history.

Damn it, please don't make it mandatory. At the very least, it should be optional. The barbaric policy of forced shaving and clothing change—players should have the choice to adopt it or not.

 

[Yichy]

I'd like to point the elephant (horse?, dragon?) in the room...
What does "Sinicized" means and what mechanics are involved?

Maybe they will talk more about that later in some China focused dev diary.

 

[Arumdaum]

No, they used a variety of flags.

Like these:

Note how I said a banner, which was intentional, and not that they only used a single banner.

 

[kgmaan]

we need a tinto talk about persia that acutally focuses on persians and not mongols or timurids.

 

[111asdasd1234]

Also, I'm wondering if the yangban might better represent the clergy rather than the nobility, especially under Joseon, when Buddhism was suppressed and Neo-Confucianism was the state ideology

nobility→muban
clergy→munban ?

 

[Arumdaum]

nobility→muban
clergy→munban ?

I was thinking similarly to this as well, but I don't think the muban were necessarily landed or hereditary.

Maybe the hojok could serve as the nobility? They were powerful hereditary local lords but not actual nobility.

 

[Glariamn]

Some suggestions:

1. Legal Code:

"Goryeon code" sounds awkward, either best to remove the nominalizer -n or just rename it to "Korean code".

The Gyeongje Yukjeon 경제육전 is anachronistic for this timeperiod, it's the legal code for the successive Joseon dynasty and was only compiled in 1397.

That of Goryeo was Goryeo Yulgwan (高麗律館 고려율관) or simply Goryeo Yul (高麗律 고려율).

Some infos for a more flavourful description:

Early Goryeo inherited the social order of Silla, which revolved around the "bone-rank system" called Golpum (골품제도) - i.e. a highly vertical social hierarchy consisting of 17 different ranks, which decided which political offices you had access to. Intermarrying between some of them was strictly outlawed and enforced as such. The royal family belonged to the "sacred bone" rank, but effectively died out with the death of the childless Queen Seondeok in 648 AD, due to the same intermarrying laws, and they were succeeded by the "true bone" caste for the remainder of Sillas existence.

Bone-rank system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Respectively the original legal code of the country was founded upon that of Sillas Jibanghyangho 지방향호(地方鄕豪), but ultimatively the Goryeo leadership wanted to do away with it, as it served the defeated Sillan aristocracy. The Hyangni (향리, 鄕吏), mid-level local bureaucrats/administrators gained increasing prominence in the years Goryeo was founded and would play a larger role in subsequent policymaking.

Unified Silla more or less collapsed along the lines of the former Goguryeo, Silla and Baekje, due to the confederal nature of the kingdom with much deference given to the former Baekje and Goguryeo aristocracy in maintaining their own affairs. National policy was solely decided from the capital of Seorabeol/Geumseong, where Sillas noble aristocracy resided, and the local administration had no say in it. The disenfranchised local aristocracy would revolt in the late 9th century, after a series of famines and cataclysms at the end of its existence.

The leadership of Goryeo took the lesson, sought to prevent that from happening again and looked to centralize rule within the royal bureaucracy, in contrast to the effectively collapsed one of Silla outside of its homeland in the late 9th century. National civil service examinations were introduced in 958, to weaken the nobility, as was the legal code appended with 71 of the 502 articles of the Tang legal code. The provincial boundaries were moved away from the cultural delinations of Silla, Goguryeo and Baekje to a "imperial style" layout, to match a unified identity under the Goryeo emperor (Emperor at home, king abroad).

2. Korean artistry

Perhaps something more specific could be mentioned, such as Goryeo celadon, the countrys most famed export product known for its time-period. Another one is paper. Wikmedia has a photocopy of a letter from the Ilkhan Arghun to the French king Phillip the Fair, written on paper made in Korea.

Goryeo ware - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Korean paper - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

3. "Son in law" Rule

The description seems to be inaccurate. The Quda blood-relation-/vassalship between the Mongols and Koreans foremost existed as a direct link between Chinggis Khans and the Korean royal family. This practiced preceded the Mongol conquest of the Song and the foundation of the Yuan dynasty, as a means to forge tribal alliances on the Eurasian steppes. The Kingdom of Qocho, in what's now the Tarim basin is another example of a "quda", subjugated in 1209, well before the Yuan dynastys proclamation in 1271. The Central Asian conqueror Timur likewise styled himself as a "quda". in order to express his blood-relationship to Chinggis. Hence why Korean kings had to take on Mongol names like "Bayan Temür", were entrusted to provide troops to quell rebellions, and became effectively close blood relatives, cousins/uncles of the Mongol emperor. Correspondence continued after the Mongols fled into the Steppes and relocated their capital to Karakorum, with the abject majority foreign Mongol ancestry of the ruling family after decades of intermarriage being a major contributor to their eventual ousting.

4. Population figures

Is population going to be redone still? Even after all the feedback from the first dev diary. Meiou & Taxes puts Goryeos population at around 5.6 million in December 1356, which could serve as a ballpark for more accurate numbers.

Sources:

On the interaction/relation between the Mongol and Korean court:
Robinson, David M. Empire’s Twilight: Northeast Asia under the Mongols. Harvard University Asia Center, 2009.
Robinson, David M. “Rethinking the Late Koryŏ in an International Context.” Korean Studies, vol. 41, 2017, pp. 75–98.

On the Mongol Empire:
Kim, Hodong. “Was ‘da Yuan’ a Chinese Dynasty?” Journal of Song-Yuan Studies, vol. 45, 2015, pp. 279–305.
(featured a few months ago on r/askhistorians)

 

[Otto_III]

What does "can invest in culture" mean? Is this monetary funds you can invest to increase your culture influence consistently?

 

[Sizvahstar]

Does Korea start with serfdom to represent the Nobi? (Korean Slaves/Serfs)

Slavery in Korea - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

In case no one answered: yes. Generalist Gaming played Korea and using slaves was an important part of his expansion.

 

[Druplesnubb]

View attachment 1315120​

Why does this one federation have some countries with multiple names inside of them? The other federations don't have this.

 

[tinholt]

I'm guessing that with Manchu script being present, there won't be Jurchen script?

Jurchen script - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Would be neat if you could double down on the Sinicization early in the game, and just like Korea undo the Mongolian heritage and influence and rather try to take back your Khitan heritage and destiny. But have it be so that you can only choose on of the two.

Manchu script only arrives after 300 years in the game. And the Jurchen Jin dynasty was still ruling Northern China the century prior. The Jin Dynasty is A LOT closer than the Machu federation by Nurhaci and Aisin Gioro. The player most likely won't have to deal with another three centuries of Mongolian rule, so why not given the Jurchen script option? Have it require prerequisites, making it so that you need to be independent or a level of Sinicization before the end of the Renaissance. With the Jurchen script one giving greater Sinicization and cultural acceptance of Chinese and the Manchu script giving an easier time rallying the Mongols of the plains (and thus the conquest of China a lot easier).

 

[Sizvahstar]

We have a system of regnal names, but unfortunately it's not able to fully handle the complexities of naming for East Asian dynasties.

Why not let the player choose from a (curated) list generated by that same system?

 

[Sizvahstar]

Tea is important!

I agree, any civilized court should be able to spill some tea from high-grade, culturally significant pottery!

 

[Sizvahstar]

Agreed, but from what I've seen from the Ming video, there will be a dynamic change of name that adds the prefix.

Is this by (one of?) the Asian content creator?

 

[tinholt]

Once you form the Manchu tag in-game, shouldn’t the Jurchen culture also be renamed to Manchu once Manchu/Later Jin is formed?

It probably should.

Historically, the people we now call Manchus were originally known as Jurchens (女真), a name that went back to their earlier states under the Liao and Jin dynasties. But on interpretation by historians is that this name carried baggage (political, cultural, and psychological) that their leaders consciously wanted to move past.

The term 女真 (nǚzhēn) is a Chinese transcription of the Jurchens’ own ethnonym, probably pronounced something like jušen in their Tungusic language. However, the characters used—女 (woman) and 真 (true/pure)—may have unintentionally reinforced a troubling image in Chinese eyes. Some Qing sources later even commented on how odd or humiliating the name appeared in retrospect. While the term wasn't meant to mean “pure women,” that is how it looked when written in Chinese—and may have contributed to the sense that the name no longer represented a proud, powerful people.

More seriously, the name was associated with a long history of subordination to outside powers. Under both the Khitan Liao and Mongol Yuan, Jurchens were seen as a subject people. One particularly humiliating custom was that Jurchen villages were expected to "offer" unmarried women (often the daughters of common households, sometimes of more prominent families) to visiting envoys or officials. This wasn’t necessarily a voluntary practice, but part of what was seen as tribute or duty. While such customs might have once been rationalized as hospitality, they were resented by the Jurchens themselves, especially when they involved coercion or disregard for family dignity.

By the late 16th century, when Nurhaci began his unification of the Jurchen tribes, these historical associations were still alive in the collective memory. The Jurchen name wasn’t just old, it was loaded with the memory of disunity, external domination, and cultural humiliation. So while he initially used "Jurchen" in his diplomatic correspondence with the Ming (likely to preserve recognition), he and his successors began to develop a new identity.

In 1635, under Hong Taiji, they officially renamed their people to "Manchu" (滿洲). The reasons weren’t just cosmetic. The name change was a deliberate rebranding of an entire ethnic and political identity. As historian Pamela Crossley argues, this was part of a broader campaign to elevate the Manchu people as rightful, sophisticated, and morally legitimate rulers of China—equal to, and in some respects surpassing, the Han Chinese elite in statecraft, military prowess, and ideological clarity. Renaming the culture wasn’t about abandoning their heritage—it was about claiming a future that didn’t define them by past humiliation.

So when you form Manchu in-game, it isn’t just a flag or a tag change—it represents a major ideological and civilizational shift. Renaming the Jurchen culture to Manchu upon the formation of the Manchu state would better reflect the real-world assertion of parity with the Ming, and the emergence of a new imperial identity that will soon dominate all of China.

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Regardless of any motivation or historical baggage; it's a change that happened and should probably be modeled in game. Don't call the Jurchen people Manchu in 1337, but only do so after they're united. Having the culture's name change on the map would add some nice progression that'd require very little work.

 

[Freshplayer]

Once you form the Manchu tag in-game, shouldn’t the Jurchen culture also be renamed to Manchu?

It probably should.

Historically, the people we now call Manchus were originally known as Jurchens (女真), a name that went back to their earlier states under the Liao and Jin dynasties. But this name carried baggage (political, cultural, and psychological) that their leaders consciously wanted to move past.

The term 女真 (nǚzhēn) is a Chinese transcription of the Jurchens’ own ethnonym, probably pronounced something like jušen in their Tungusic language. However, the characters used—女 (woman) and 真 (true/pure)—may have unintentionally reinforced a troubling image in Chinese eyes. Some Qing sources later even commented on how odd or humiliating the name appeared in retrospect. While the term wasn't meant to mean “pure women,” that is how it looked when written in Chinese—and may have contributed to the sense that the name no longer represented a proud, powerful people.

More seriously, the name was associated with a long history of subordination to outside powers. Under both the Khitan Liao and Mongol Yuan, Jurchens were seen as a subject people. One particularly humiliating custom was that Jurchen villages were expected to "offer" unmarried women (often the daughters of common households, sometimes of more prominent families) to visiting envoys or officials. This wasn’t necessarily a voluntary practice, but part of what was seen as tribute or duty. While such customs might have once been rationalized as hospitality, they were resented by the Jurchens themselves, especially when they involved coercion or disregard for family dignity.

By the late 16th century, when Nurhaci began his unification of the Jurchen tribes, these historical associations were still alive in the collective memory. The Jurchen name wasn’t just old, it was loaded with the memory of disunity, external domination, and cultural humiliation. So while he initially used "Jurchen" in his diplomatic correspondence with the Ming (likely to preserve recognition), he and his successors began to develop a new identity.

In 1635, under Hong Taiji, they officially renamed their people to "Manchu" (滿洲). The reasons weren’t just cosmetic. The name change was a deliberate rebranding of an entire ethnic and political identity. As historian Pamela Crossley argues, this was part of a broader campaign to elevate the Manchu people as rightful, sophisticated, and morally legitimate rulers of China—equal to, and in some respects surpassing, the Han Chinese elite in statecraft, military prowess, and ideological clarity. Renaming the culture wasn’t about abandoning their heritage—it was about claiming a future that didn’t define them by past humiliation.

So when you form Manchu in-game, it isn’t just a flag or a tag change—it represents a major ideological and civilizational shift. Renaming the Jurchen culture to Manchu would better reflect the real-world assertion of parity with the Ming, and the emergence of a new imperial identity that will soon dominate all of China

Once you form the Manchu tag in-game, shouldn’t the Jurchen culture also be renamed to Manchu?

It probably should.

Historically, the people we now call Manchus were originally known as Jurchens (女真), a name that went back to their earlier states under the Liao and Jin dynasties. But this name carried baggage (political, cultural, and psychological) that their leaders consciously wanted to move past.

The term 女真 (nǚzhēn) is a Chinese transcription of the Jurchens’ own ethnonym, probably pronounced something like jušen in their Tungusic language. However, the characters used—女 (woman) and 真 (true/pure)—may have unintentionally reinforced a troubling image in Chinese eyes. Some Qing sources later even commented on how odd or humiliating the name appeared in retrospect. While the term wasn't meant to mean “pure women,” that is how it looked when written in Chinese—and may have contributed to the sense that the name no longer represented a proud, powerful people.

More seriously, the name was associated with a long history of subordination to outside powers. Under both the Khitan Liao and Mongol Yuan, Jurchens were seen as a subject people. One particularly humiliating custom was that Jurchen villages were expected to "offer" unmarried women (often the daughters of common households, sometimes of more prominent families) to visiting envoys or officials. This wasn’t necessarily a voluntary practice, but part of what was seen as tribute or duty. While such customs might have once been rationalized as hospitality, they were resented by the Jurchens themselves, especially when they involved coercion or disregard for family dignity.

By the late 16th century, when Nurhaci began his unification of the Jurchen tribes, these historical associations were still alive in the collective memory. The Jurchen name wasn’t just old, it was loaded with the memory of disunity, external domination, and cultural humiliation. So while he initially used "Jurchen" in his diplomatic correspondence with the Ming (likely to preserve recognition), he and his successors began to develop a new identity.

In 1635, under Hong Taiji, they officially renamed their people to "Manchu" (滿洲). The reasons weren’t just cosmetic. The name change was a deliberate rebranding of an entire ethnic and political identity. As historian Pamela Crossley argues, this was part of a broader campaign to elevate the Manchu people as rightful, sophisticated, and morally legitimate rulers of China—equal to, and in some respects surpassing, the Han Chinese elite in statecraft, military prowess, and ideological clarity. Renaming the culture wasn’t about abandoning their heritage—it was about claiming a future that didn’t define them by past humiliation.

So when you form Manchu in-game, it isn’t just a flag or a tag change—it represents a major ideological and civilizational shift. Renaming the Jurchen culture to Manchu would better reflect the real-world assertion of parity with the Ming, and the emergence of a new imperial identity that will soon dominate all of China.

Well, feel pitiful for your acknowledgment.

 

[zeruosi]

Actually, China does not exist—it is entirely our fabrication. Just as you have never been to China, how can you be certain it truly exists?

Don't engage with him. I know this guy—he's a purebred racist troll. Spews nothing but discriminatory and filthy language at everyone.

 

[Sizvahstar]

Jurchen also had a similar system called Boo-i Aha.

The Wikipedia explanation for this term is wrong here. Boo-i means "household's" and aha means servant or salve, niyalma is the word for person.