Why is the map scope of China hegemony unreasonable?

[Basiluca]

Solution: Renaming Yue to Viet - which is the Vietnamese translation of the word Yue.
Vietnamese dynasties did claim descendants to the ancient Yue people and the empire of Nanyue.
Keep Viet Empire (including Guangxi and Guangdong) inside Chinese Hegemony. During the Nguyen dynasty, Vietnamese emperors did claim to be the ruler of China because the Ming "real China" got destroyed by the Qing "barbarians", so Vietnam was the only empire left to be China.
Everyone be happy.

That's same word, our language is not depends on spellinf of the pronounciation, you are trapped in your culture

ancient Yue people is a general name for southern China minorities, "Baiyue" for "hundreds of yue tribles", and by the language relationship, Vietnamese are actually not very close to the yue people in the history, a research shows that some yue people perhaps speak some kinds of Tai languages but not the Mon-Khmer languages.

Nanyue is also a regime built by Chinese with confident history. All of these are base on Chinese legends, that's nothing about nationalism, because we were siblings in that time, Vietnamese themselves are pious believers of confucianism like other parts of China.

Actually, quite the opposite, both modern Chinese nationalism and Vietnamese nationalism trend to distinguish identites and deny the historical connections.

 

[Basiluca]

An inappropriate opinion? Whats inappropriate about disagreeing on de jure borders? Inappropriate is more about posting something nsfw or 18+ than disagreeing with someone

You cant, but you can infer what the situation in 867, 1066 and 1187 start dates should be, by what happens within the game period of 867 to 1453. Thatwhich being; Northern Vietnam going independent between start dates, the Vietnamese speaking a different language family even if they adopted other parts of chinese culture. The Qin never conquered Northern Vietnam, and after the Song, no other Chinese empire would come to hold it long term either

And being a colony probably isnt a good reason to be de jure part of the whole

Have ambitions to tame dragons? When would you say they had plans to conquer the whole of China and become emperor there too?

i can, which is why practically every comment of mine says North Vietnam or Northern Vietnam

So its in period, just as the English conquest of Ireland would only have started in the 3rd bookmark, but Ireland is de jure part of Brittania in 867, where Irish culture has no anglicisation

? Vietnam literally is indochina, and Southeast Asian, as its South of China, and East of India. Their language is not sinitic. Their focus post independence was largely on conquering more and more to their south

Wiki encyclopedia? You can just say wiki or wikipedia, both are far faster than saying the etymology of the website

Besides Qin not conquering the region, they've all been laid out before, yet you deemed them to be "inappropriate opinions"

Vietnam is not a colony, but a part of China minorities, Hmong, Yi, Zhuang, so many people don't speak Chinese at first but live as citizens for thousands of years. The difference is merely about the Vietnamese got independent eventually. If different languages can be a convidence for de jure borders, why albania, armenia and bulgaria are parts of Byzantine Empire? Should the India became tens of Empires?

 

[treb]

ancient Yue people is a general name for southern China minorities, "Baiyue" for "hundreds of yue tribles", and by the language relationship, Vietnamese are actually not very close to the yue people in the history, a research shows that some yue people perhaps speak some kinds of Tai languages but not the Mon-Khmer languages.

Yue is a blanket term, it technically covers various Austronesian, Tai, Hmong–Mien and Austroasiatic peoples

That's same word, our language is not depends on spelling of the pronunciation, you are trapped in your culture

No, there is nothing cultural about that. It comes down to entirely different ways of encoding information in a script. 'Yue' and 'Viet' might mean the same to you. But in English, using a Latin script they don't, "Yue" is a historical term for various non Chinese indigenous peoples of China and wider southeast Asia from a Chinese perspective. "Viet" in English specifically refers to something to do with Vietnam, or the Vietnamese people.

If different languages can be a convidence for de jure borders, why albania, armenia and bulgaria are parts of Byzantine Empire? Should the India became tens of Empires?

Because thats how the game works, Land is tied to a title like a barony, county and duchy with each one being made up of the next tier when it comes to empires there are relatively few historical ones to cluster in the various kingdom titles so you end up with some of these weird bits mashed in. So most are made up or have bits added in that technically are not historical parts. Funny you should mention the Albanians though in 876 they technically didnt exist as depicted. The first time the Byzatines mention them is in the early 11th century. Before that we dont actually fully know where they were since a lot of their language and culture seems to imply they first developed in a much more mountainous region than Albania. Its assumed they migrated to there later in the 10th to 11th centuries. so before that it was part of a Greek cultural region known as Epirus. lastly on the Bulgarians A lot of the Byzantine de jure orders in Europe are based on Theodosius splitting the roman empire into a west and eastern half. The east part(which Byzantium is) traditionally held its northern border at the Danube. Personally im flummoxed as to why they chose that as you. Considering the Bulgarians had their own Balkan empire In ck3's timeframe...

because we were siblings in that time

That is incredibly loaded language with very negative connotations in english, phrasing it like that is considered extremely nationalistic bordering on fascistic and was used to justify terrible things. Im guessing you mean there is a common cultural bond?

Vietnamese themselves are pious believers of confucianism like other parts of China.

A quick wiki search tells me the vast majority of Vietnamese are irreligious or worship folk religions.

 

[naq29]

Hmong, Yi, Zhuang, so many people don't speak Chinese at first but live as citizens for thousands of years.

Chinese dynasties considered them "barbarians", not citizens lol (pre-modern Chinese had no concept of citizens).

 

[ChowMeinDelivery]

If you revolt to gain independence, and then styilise the status quo ante bellum as foreign occupation, you might not be a normal citizen.

 

[Pvt.0120]

The first rulers of Liaodong were the Koreans, the territory that had been occupied since Gojoseon, and after Gojoseon was destroyed by the Han Dynasty, the Chinese occupied it

What are you talking about? Ridiculous. Gaogouli or Gojoseon is built by Fuyu peoples. They're a group of tribes i.e. ethnicities. Modern Korea and Japan both belong to Fuyu peoples. Korea is one ethnicity of Fuyu peoples. That is like that modern German belong to Germanic peoples. Could German claim Scandinavia peninsula? No. Could Japan claim Korean Peninsula? No. Then could Korea claim Liaodong? No.

Gojoseon's successor is Jurchen people. They built Jin Dynasty and they speak the Manchu-Tungus language who are different from Korean. Paradox dealt with the situation very correctly by setting the Andong empire. But I think a more suitable name should be Jurchen empire.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

View attachment 1316565

If one of the chinese exonyms for them is foreign barbarian, they might just not be chinese

 

[darthfanta]

If one of the chinese exonyms for them is foreign barbarian, they might just not be chinese

I am just gonna point out that many of the leaders of Vietnam in the post-Tang era were actually of Chinese descent and promoted Confucianism, Chinese language,political systems and culture etc.

 

[Benismann]

I am just gonna point out that many of the leaders of Vietnam in the post-Tang era were actually of Chinese descent and promoted Confucianism, Chinese language,political systems and culture etc.

The fact that they PROMOTED it kinda implies that they weren't the norm there at all....

 

[darthfanta]

The fact that they PROMOTED it kinda implies that they weren't the norm there at all....

It was not, but it was the norm for the landlord elite. And the peasants followed these elite. Not that much different from Anglo-Norman England.

 

[Basiluca]

Chinese dynasties considered them "barbarians", not citizens lol (pre-modern Chinese had no concept of citizens).

It depends. "Barbarians" doesn't refer to well-educated minorities, not even Koreans. However, Han Chinese who are beyond governmental control can sometimes also be considered barbarians.

At the very least, they pay taxes, serve in the military, receive education, and may even hold office—possessing all the rights of citizenship.

 

[Basiluca]

Yue is a blanket term, it technically covers various Austronesian, Tai, Hmong–Mien and Austroasiatic peoples


No, there is nothing cultural about that. It comes down to entirely different ways of encoding information in a script. 'Yue' and 'Viet' might mean the same to you. But in English, using a Latin script they don't, "Yue" is a historical term for various non Chinese indigenous peoples of China and wider southeast Asia from a Chinese perspective. "Viet" in English specifically refers to something to do with Vietnam, or the Vietnamese people.


Because thats how the game works, Land is tied to a title like a barony, county and duchy with each one being made up of the next tier when it comes to empires there are relatively few historical ones to cluster in the various kingdom titles so you end up with some of these weird bits mashed in. So most are made up or have bits added in that technically are not historical parts. Funny you should mention the Albanians though in 876 they technically didnt exist as depicted. The first time the Byzatines mention them is in the early 11th century. Before that we dont actually fully know where they were since a lot of their language and culture seems to imply they first developed in a much more mountainous region than Albania. Its assumed they migrated to there later in the 10th to 11th centuries. so before that it was part of a Greek cultural region known as Epirus. lastly on the Bulgarians A lot of the Byzantine de jure orders in Europe are based on Theodosius splitting the roman empire into a west and eastern half. The east part(which Byzantium is) traditionally held its northern border at the Danube. Personally im flummoxed as to why they chose that as you. Considering the Bulgarians had their own Balkan empire In ck3's timeframe...


That is incredibly loaded language with very negative connotations in english, phrasing it like that is considered extremely nationalistic bordering on fascistic and was used to justify terrible things. Im guessing you mean there is a common cultural bond?


A quick wiki search tells me the vast majority of Vietnamese are irreligious or worship folk religions.

You underestimate the ablity of ancient ethnic taxonomy, there're many names for different south minorities and many of these names are related with modern ethnic familiies. Historical aboriginals in Guangdong and Guangxi were mostly in Tai languages. However it's hardly shown that address Yi and Hmong as Yue, Man（蛮） is perhaps derives from Hmong.

Just like you mentioned the Albanians—you said they "didn't exist," but of course they weren't created in the 11th century. Rather, they gradually formed into an ethnic group. The Vietnamese are actually a similar concept; there may have been tribes and clans before, but it's hard to argue that they existed continuously as a unified ethnicity since prehistory. I brought up these examples to illustrate the situation of minority groups under large empires. I'm curious how you view the Czechs under the Holy Roman Empire, the Basques in Iberia, and the Armenians, whom you’ve ignored. These groups certainly had a concentrated distribution, but they can also be seen as existing within a larger imperial framework.

You consider this statement fascist because fascism is what you're thinking of. But the fact remains: many early Vietnamese migrated from China and intermarried with the local population—why shouldn't such a relationship be seen as one of brothers and sisters? Aren't Austrialian the siblings of Englishmen?

Confucianism is generally not considered a religion, even though most Chinese people are considered as atheists in the history. However, it is reflected in ancestral identity, moral codes, cultural education, and the civil service examination system. (You can look up in wiki for“Confucian court examination system in Vietnam”, which mainly examines the understanding of Confucian classics and continued until French colonization.)

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[SpiritRiven]

It was not, but it was the norm for the landlord elite. And the peasants followed these elite. Not that much different from Anglo-Norman England.

Normans were not natives either

 

[treb]

Just like you mentioned the Albanians—you said they "didn't exist,"

No, I said they didn't exist as depicted in game...

You underestimate the ablity of ancient ethnic taxonomy

And you cant seem to comprehend words have different meanings in different language "Man（蛮)" "Man" means male person in English, not the Hmong people. in English, Yue covers the Hmong people.

You consider this statement fascist because fascism is what you're thinking of. But the fact remains: many early Vietnamese migrated from China and intermarried with the local population—why shouldn't such a relationship be seen as one of brothers and sisters? Aren't Austrialian the siblings of Englishmen?

No, we don't because thats the exact language and excuse Hitler used to invade half of Europe to unite the "Germanic Aryans".

 

[darthfanta]

Normans were not natives either

That was the point. It was essentially a foreign elite group leading a revolt against the foreign government they were originally part of.More like a Palmyrene style breakaway state than brave Arminius pushing the Romans out of Germania.

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

You consider this statement fascist because fascism is what you're thinking of. But the fact remains: many early Vietnamese migrated from China and intermarried with the local population—why shouldn't such a relationship be seen as one of brothers and sisters? Aren't Austrialian the siblings of Englishmen?

I would think that lots of intermarriage shouldn't be described as a brother-sister relationship, for obvious reasons.

And no, I would not describe Australians a a sibling of Englishmen, they're descendants and ethnically related, but siblings is a weird way to say that.

As well, this is the same language that Russia has been using for years to justify their attacks on Ukraine. "We're brother cultures, we shouldn't be fighting! That's why I should be in charge of you."

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

That was the point. It was essentially a foreign elite group leading a revolt against the foreign government they were originally part of.More like a Palmyrene style breakaway state than brave Arminius pushing the Romans out of Germania.

That is not how that works. The Norman's were foreign conquerors of England. How on Earth do you view that as a revolt against...France?

 

[DiabloDeVille]

That was the point. It was essentially a foreign elite group leading a revolt against the foreign government they were originally part of.More like a Palmyrene style breakaway state than brave Arminius pushing the Romans out of Germania.

So the foreign elite group can be han, but the people they rule over arent themselves han, ergo, northern vietnam shouldnt be in china's hegemony

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

So the foreign elite group can be han, but the people they rule over arent themselves han, ergo, northern vietnam shouldnt be in china's hegemony

Don't elites handle the affairs of rule and law though? It wasn't as if Vietnam in 200BC~867BC was some sort of democracy?

 

[darthfanta]

That is not how that works. The Norman's were foreign conquerors of England. How on Earth do you view that as a revolt against...France?

So the foreign elite group can be han, but the people they rule over arent themselves han, ergo, northern vietnam shouldnt be in china's hegemony

The point is that the people in charge don’t see you as foreign, and that’s the most important part, because whether the locals rebel or not depends not on the average Vietnamese peasant but the local elite. It’s the same deal with the Roman Empire. Vast parts of the Roman Empire including Egypt did not speak Latin or Greek but somehow it’s part of Roman hegemony.This is because the people in charge, the local elite does speak those language and self identify themselves with the empire.As for the Norman analogy, the Norman nobles in England certainly didn’t see the French as foreign for a long while. They themselves owned a lot of land in France. Arguably, they saw the Anglos as more foreign than the actual French.