3D Artwork Megathread (all discussion here please)

[karasis65]

I'm still on team 2D, however devs coming with reasonable arguments for 3D. I would say let them cook and see where it goes. If we get vic3 electric bogaloo I'm getting torches again. And hopefully it's easy to disable/avoid 3D for modders so we don't have to wait ages for overhauls.

 

[MasterPaw]

In this kind of games, 2d portraits are much prettier than 3d.

Imho 3d portraits are a waste of time and resources in paradox games.

I would think 3d with their system cost less than handmade 2d for big quantities

 

[benman17]

Thread number 6 lets give it up for thread number 6

I'm sorry for making it then, I didn't realise I was spamming or there were so many.

 

[SecretiveCody]

I really prefer the Imperator style of portraits over anything... they feel like a solid improvement on CK2's portrait system. CK3's Portraits aren't TERRIBLE, though Victoria 3's are.

 

[Draky]

On the topic of surveys: we do regular qualitative and quantitative research about the topic and the outcome is always the same: more players prefer 3D over 2D from an immersion perspective.

Now, that does not mean it is an absolute favorite and also does not mean that people will not have issues with execution and other potential effects (more time to have mods out, performance, etc)

What I can say that, besides the visuals in character-related features that you have seen so far (and a few others that we have yet to cover) they are not as present as they are in other games like Vicky or CK3. This is not a game focused on characters or pops, they are supporting elements in Project Caesar.

I mean, not to sound like an ass, but presumably you've done the same kind of qualitative AND quantitative research for the last like 5+ years of DLCs for Hoi4 and Ck3 and the other games, so have you ever entertained the idea that there's been flaws in the research design somewhere?

 

[SecretiveCody]

I wonder what would happen if people had an option to display those 3D portraits as static 2D ones. What would they think about it - would they still hate them? Or not?

This is honestly what I'm hoping for. I'd really like that, because I don't hate them working on 3D Portraits, I just prefer the 2.5D style of Imperator and CK2.

 

[Jia Xu]

I mean, not to sound like an ass, but presumably you've done the same kind of qualitative AND quantitative research for the last like 5+ years of DLCs for Hoi4 and Ck3 and the other games, so have you ever entertained the idea that there's been flaws in the research design somewhere?

The success of DLCs aren't judged on Steam reviews. They're judged on whether or not they've exceeded sales targets. HOI4 is literally PDS' most successful game, ever. lol

 

[Lindaegan]

I'm sorry for making it then, I didn't realise I was spamming or there were so many.

"please search the forums before making ANY post" and so on

 

[A Pink Duck]

I think Skyrim is a hilariously bad game, but that is because I'm a snobbish, pompous ass who likes my games to have "deep RPG mechanics," whatever that means. But at the end of the day there is a reason it gets re-released constantly, and why even to this day there are plenty of people playing it.

Skyrim is one of those games where it's definitely flawed and you can point out all sorts of things that could be fixed or improved. But when I'm playing none of those things really matter because I'm having to much fun.

Hopefully PC ends up hitting a sweet spot like that.

 

[Swabbie277]

People on the forum here and on other services have been discussing the alternatives to the 3D portraits. The arguments I've seen for alternatives are fair, and while I personally don't experience it, others have mentioned how the 3D portraits give an "uncanny valley" effect. And 3D portraits do have bonuses over the types seen in EU4, HOI4, and CK2; being that they are much more flexible in design, and if you want to show a lot of characters it's not practical to individually make 2D portraits for all of them without making repeats.

Another argument against 3D portraits is that portraits don't really belong in the game at all, but I believe it's been said that they can be toggled off, so I'm not really touching that.

I think the best approach for the portraits is to just put a "painterly" filter over it, so that it resembles a painting. Keeping it stylized would either solve, or diminish the uncanny valley effect; maintain the flexibility of the 3D model system; and look good (especially since the characters themselves are confined always to a relatively small section of the screen.

I am personally thinking of something similar to the animated trailers for CK3 and the art style seen there. Obviously what's in those trailers is probably much too taxing to incorporate into a game, but something of that sort would be skookum.

This is a bit longer than intended, but I tried to cover the bases. Probably missed some argument, but I think that it's unreasonable to just remove a system rather than iterate it for a different game.

 

[Ekyman]

I mean, not to sound like an ass, but presumably you've done the same kind of qualitative AND quantitative research for the last like 5+ years of DLCs for Hoi4 and Ck3 and the other games, so have you ever entertained the idea that there's been flaws in the research design somewhere?

HoI4 has spent the last five years steadily increasing its player count so it seems like the research there is working. EU4 has held steady, doesn’t seem like there’s a problem there. You disliking something doesn’t mean it’s the wrong move.

Also good research doesn’t guarantee a good product, and a good research system will never be infallible itself either.

 

[SAS]

Merged and made Megathread

 

[Austregisel]

I'm still on team 2D, however devs coming with reasonable arguments for 3D. I would say let them cook and see where it goes. If we get vic3 electric bogaloo I'm getting torches again. And hopefully it's easy to disable/avoid 3D for modders so we don't have to wait ages for overhauls.

I'm full on 2D team, but I know most people prefer 3D, the bulk of the fanbase is not even in the forum, and they think 3D is better, BUT, we are not silente, so, if its easier to disable 3D models and implement 2D via modding, dont need to be a option in the menu, it would already be fine to me

 

[William the Merry]

"please search the forums before making ANY post" and so on

Yeah but how many actually do.

Does that really matter? From my experience people don't care about such detalis as long as they like the game. I have repeatedly heard people praise Elden Ring as a polished game with a high attention to details. In one of the first (and few) Elden Ring streams I ever tuned in to the streamer immidiately praised the game as extremely polished. Within 2 minutes of watching I had noticed the sword scabbard pretty much constantly sticking through the cloak of their character and a metal weapon hitting what looked like obvious wooden stairs making the sound of metal vs. metal or stone, and striking sparks. Noone seemed to care though. They liked the game.

I haven't player elden ring, its not my style, meanwhile if your rulers look like this, you will be taken out of the game

 

[pdx-sanke]

I mean, not to sound like an ass, but presumably you've done the same kind of qualitative AND quantitative research for the last like 5+ years of DLCs for Hoi4 and Ck3 and the other games, so have you ever entertained the idea that there's been flaws in the research design somewhere?

We do a lot of research, yes. They do not guarantee success, but they keep us informed of trends and directions to go.

For example, HOI4 is a very good example. Since the majority of current players that are playing HOI were 14 years or younger when the game was released, should we continue to develop the game and make content in the same way as back in 2016, or is there a shift in players expectations? We do look at reviews, but we also look at other things like the amount of players playing the game, retention (pretty good indicators HOI4 has) and units sold as well (also very good). So research helps us seeing parts of the big picture, and we will definitely make mistakes, but we will be more informed.

And same thing for CK3. While the players there behave in a more similar way to Stellaris than HOI4 (so they do not stay as much around, they come and go when we have big releases), the game has continuously grown in the past years in many aspects mentioned above. While I do love CK2 as a player, CK3 has been more successful than CK2 ever was, while both games had/have their quota of good and bad releases from players perspective.

In any case, I jumped at this thread not to convince anyone that 3D > 2D (because that is not necessarily true), I just wanted to point out that "3D sucks because X is a failure" was a bad argument.

 

[lin001]

Covering over the 3D models with some kind of post rendering filter might go some way to making them more palatable, perhaps?
View attachment 1144969
It does not have higher quality of anything - its just an effect of making image coherent - filter acts as a glue, common thing between all elements that otherwise look out of place (image made by PełPeł)

People on the forum here and on other services have been discussing the alternatives to the 3D portraits. The arguments I've seen for alternatives are fair, and while I personally don't experience it, others have mentioned how the 3D portraits give an "uncanny valley" effect. And 3D portraits do have bonuses over the types seen in EU4, HOI4, and CK2; being that they are much more flexible in design, and if you want to show a lot of characters it's not practical to individually make 2D portraits for all of them without making repeats.

Another argument against 3D portraits is that portraits don't really belong in the game at all, but I believe it's been said that they can be toggled off, so I'm not really touching that.

I think the best approach for the portraits is to just put a "painterly" filter over it, so that it resembles a painting. Keeping it stylized would either solve, or diminish the uncanny valley effect; maintain the flexibility of the 3D model system; and look good (especially since the characters themselves are confined always to a relatively small section of the screen.

I am personally thinking of something similar to the animated trailers for CK3 and the art style seen there. Obviously what's in those trailers is probably much too taxing to incorporate into a game, but something of that sort would be skookum.

This is a bit longer than intended, but I tried to cover the bases. Probably missed some argument, but I think that it's unreasonable to just remove a system rather than iterate it for a different game.

This reminds me of the art style from the EU4 Cossacks DLC trailer:

In my opinion, this is a unique style for the characters and one that would not require the team to make realistic models that would enter the “uncanny valley”, satisfying those who don't like Vic3 characters. It is also an interesting possibility since it might not require much in terms of performance.

 

[guinea prince]

For me, I'm not a fan of 3d models and much preferred nice portraits, but it's not a big deal. It's a little bit is the feel that better graphics take space away from granularity, and a little bit is just my personal preference. But ultimately it is just my preference. While my dream fantasy game would be super ugly to make room for more granularity, Project Caesar is at least promising half of that so that I can be happy with.

 

[Fatherlorris]

Merged and made Megathread

I was preparing a big write-up filled with constructive feedback on how to improve the 3D portraits within the current system.

I have been working on it for the last few days, doing research, making mock-ups ect. And it's a bit disheartening to see all discussion about 3D artwork get merged into a thread that is relatively unconstructive and revolves around 2D vs 3D.

 

[Swabbie277]

I was preparing a big write-up filled with constructive feedback on how to improve the 3D portraits within the current system.

I have been working on it for the last few days, doing research, making mock-ups ect. And it's a bit disheartening to see all discussion about 3D artwork get merged into a thread that is relatively unconstructive and revolves around 2D vs 3D.

I find it frustrating as well, especially since it looks like the thread was literally started by just saying "3D is ugly." I would personally post what you've writ as it's own with your reasoning for another thread being on top (and maybe in title), as long as it's quality.

 

[Fatherlorris]

I find it frustrating as well, especially since it looks like the thread was literally started by just saying "3D is ugly." I would personally post what you've writ as it's own with your reasoning for another thread being on top (and maybe in title), as long as it's quality.

Well, fingers crossed.
I hope to get it done sometime next week, I've had lots of chats with modders, concept artists and such for it.

I want to publish it alongside a comic too, I would be a bit miffed it just got merged into a thread that is mostly bickering.