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Let's face facts:

1. Blobs cannot be stopped, only discouraged, assuming that's what you want to do.

2. If you give a nation French culture and all of Gaul has French culture, then that nation can blob into a thing that is always going to 'look like' France. Ditto for the nation with Anglo-Saxon culture, the nation with Iberian culture and so on through the list.

3. All of the old Aberration 'majors' were an iteration of some vanilla major. Brittany in vanilla Aberratiion (one of the few we have not yet rebuilt, but I have the material mostly done) actually makes vanilla France look a little meek. It has more right-culture provinces than France, almost no negative events, ands ome crazily good ones, and a nice long run of good monarchs and leaders. Plus, it doesn't begin the game at war with Henry V and his allies. Compared to vanilla France, Aberration's original Brittany was/is a monster. Ditto Bavaria.

4. So, let's accept that unless we make a genuine fanstasy mod, the Aberrated world can only be just so different from vanilla.
 
Calipah said:
You know its funny, MattyG has been giving up his free time for the past 6 months working on this mod, putting in new material, enriching the game, listening to suggestions from players (Hey, he even tolerates MY bickering) and continues improving the mod and for what?nothing but the enjoyment of players.Rather than lynching at him do this : If you dont like Abberation II output ; stick to Abberation I and improve whatever u think is nessicary whilst leaving out whatever you dont agree with.

Abberation II has evolved into something different.Regardless of how "vanilla" some nations seem!Stop being ridiculous!
I never said I didn't LIKE it, I'm just pointing out where I *feel* how the game plays out and the mission statement are not quite going in the same direction.

Byzantium IS LIKE OE because OE imitated Byzantium, heck Sultan Mehmet II wanted to rejuvinate the Roman Empire through his own state!

As for Cordoba looking like Spain - heh- the Ummayeds controlled most of Iberia anyway, and it would have made sense for the Muslims to simply eredicate the annoying Christian states once and for all "learning from the reconquesta".

I'm not disputing the historical reasons, and I know it would take a *lot* of effort to keep it plausible, yet make those countries feel distinctly different.

4. No Great Powers, No Blobs

Accordingly, there are no great powers in Aberration II (Spain, England etc) and we are structuring the game such that massive countries do not readily form up as they do in vanilla and other mods.

Spain and OE are two countries I readily link with the term "great powers", and thus my *hope* is somewhat that these "links" are cut as much as possible.

Eire, to take another example of a country that has a vanilla "counterpart" in Portugal, has a distinctly different feel than Portugal -- it's "policy" may be the same, but the different PLACE alone makes for a totally different country, imo.


You'll basically always have 4 sorts of countries: big blobs, traders, "mediums" and minors.

What I am pointing out is where I feel the "old" and the "new" blobls, traders, mediums and minors are too close. And in some cases, bottlenecks (like the siberian corridor) almost *force* similarity, that doesn't mean trying to avoid similarities is bad.
 
I think we should just agree that Aberation I and Aberation II are different mods with different team. Just split up and accept it. I think we can contact admininstrator to create a new forum for Aberation I and to rename this one. Also MattyG can be appointed a moderator here. After that he will move all Abe I topics to new forum. That would suit everyone, and we will have no wars inside team.
 
Well, you think too much SP and not MP here.

In Sp, you can blob with anything really and easily, there´s nothing to be done about that. In Mp that is all a different issue.

But the question remains, do you want to create a mod where there are no vanilla majors whatsoever with the medium/minor powers taking charge and try to have very different borders and conflict zones or do you want a slightly modified history.

Basically in MP there is never going to be a power owning all of France. And in SP, well you gotta be kidding me, I could own France as Eire or Byzantium if I wanted to and then claim their throne with the right events.:)

@ Calipah: Apart from 3-4 dedicated people I did all the work alone for some time and happily do it again. But I concur it was silly by me to assume that people would accept my judgement after a so long absence. So please rename the project and go your way if you like.
 
Ah well, if Calipah and Freisiknet feel that way.


I think that it is silly to split up a mod in general which has a small enough team, as I meant for Aberration contrary to the AGCEEP to be finished before Eu3 comes out, whenever that may be.

It seems as the crowd around Abe II has a more openminded philosophy which in my eyes brings in a long development phase which never ends (AGCEEP) and events which aren´t synchronized at all.

I tried to prevent this in Aberration by having a solo implenter of all events and a final set of eyes running everything through before putting stuff in, and I thought I had done a good job till 1.07. At that time I wanted to pause, let Aberration be played and come back to polish things when I had the time. If that feels like a dictatorship approach, sorry.

MattyG asked me if he may continue my work and I allowed it, but never imagined for things to go astray from the original in that way. Events should be in to spice things up a little not for the sake of having them in masses. And I don´t want every nation to be so small that the scenario is not mp viable and nations are wiped out.

And now all of the sudden I storm in to take away or take over your work.

No, I just wanted to change some things I have been itching or gathering whilst playing and implent some stuff that people contributed whilst I was away.


So: Everyone can feel free to disallow any use of Aberration II material in Aberration if he wants to. I will see what I can come up with to polish my 1.07 and what I am allowed to use of the many nice contributions posted in this forum. But respect that I wish that you rename your project.
 
TheArchduke said:
Well, you think too much SP and not MP here.
I don't agree. I personally feel that Aberation II is more responsive and oriented to MP play, not only in scaling back the power of the majors and making the colonization process more challenging and - in a sense - limited, but by beginning to give more life and possibility to the so-called minors. Not all groups want to play an MP game with the designated major powers.

TheArchduke said:
But the question remains, do you want to create a mod where there are no vanilla majors whatsoever with the medium/minor powers taking charge and try to have very different borders and conflict zones or do you want a slightly modified history.
The France thing is there, and if people in an MP game playing one of those five nations and want to try for it, then that's an enthralling option for them. And if the other players allow them to succeed, then its because either they have a cut some good deal over it, or they have slipped up and will suffer the consequences. You make waaay too much of the France reformation thing. It's fun, flavourful and adds a level of intrigue to the MP arena. It is also, in the Aberrated II history, also extremely plausible.

TheArchduke said:
Basically in MP there is never going to be a power owning all of France. And in SP, well you gotta be kidding me, I could own France as Eire or Byzantium if I wanted to and then claim their throne with the right events.:)
Yes, but you wouldn't have the cores and cultures for all of that. And this 'France' that so bothers you has only French culture, not Gaelic, Occitan or - as is the standard path for Burgundy in ABII - Burgundian culture. Brittany, on the other hand, would have the right cultures for all that expansion, except for the Byzantium stuff.
 
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I don't think Abe II should be no-vannilla-majors-at-any-cost mod. I think it is ALTERNATIVE HISTORY mod. And if it is PLAUSIBLE and []bINTERESTING[/b] to make France, then why not? What else would french call themselves, really! It won't be vanilla France, it is just the same name.

I think BAD stuff is to COPY vanilla majors, giving them other names. Eg, if we would have made cordoba main colonizing nation, just like Spain were - THAT WOULD be bad.

Nations are more than names. They have histories, dynasties, events et cetera, et cetera. THEY make a country, not just the NAME.

just my 10 kopeiks.
 
MattyG said:
Let's face facts:

1. Blobs cannot be stopped, only discouraged, assuming that's what you want to do.

2. If you give a nation French culture and all of Gaul has French culture, then that nation can blob into a thing that is always going to 'look like' France. Ditto for the nation with Anglo-Saxon culture, the nation with Iberian culture and so on through the list.

3. All of the old Aberration 'majors' were an iteration of some vanilla major. Brittany in vanilla Aberratiion (one of the few we have not yet rebuilt, but I have the material mostly done) actually makes vanilla France look a little meek. It has more right-culture provinces than France, almost no negative events, ands ome crazily good ones, and a nice long run of good monarchs and leaders. Plus, it doesn't begin the game at war with Henry V and his allies. Compared to vanilla France, Aberration's original Brittany was/is a monster. Ditto Bavaria.

4. So, let's accept that unless we make a genuine fanstasy mod, the Aberrated world can only be just so different from vanilla.

true that. there will be the same people, not so much individually (in many cases), but collectively. They will have much the same dreams, aspirations and drives as their vanilla counterparts and there will be many of the same historical currents thrusting them back and forth.

There IS going to be some overlap, how much is the debatable point. For instance and I bring this up because we have been discussing it recently; Bavaria is in much the same position that vanilla Austria was. It seems somewhat logical that it should flow along a similiar event channel for a portion of its' trip through history. If one views history and events as if they were water flowing over a topography created by decisions made by people then it is logical that the flow of it will be similiar given a similiar topography. But as the landscape changes and diverges the channel that the river flows through and over will form a different shape.
 
TheArchduke said:
.... very reason I made it.

Yep, this is the bit which is pissing me off, the personal pronoun. Maybe this is a translation error, from Thomas's original german language, but it's pretty egotistical in English.

AbeII works really well because it is a team effort. I also don't want to be involved in someone else's personal project.

------------

Since the ABeII started with trying to look at the whole world, I think ABE II should be renamed "Terra Universalis"
 
I be a little annoying reading all these "diatribes".

Well don't loose energy... As i can read. The Archduke want to take ABE 1.07 and do work on it... Good, i'm glad to try his mod when something new need testing.

In other hand we have the "ABE2 (thenamethatwecouldfind)" work does by MattyG,Incompetant,Calipah and all contributor... started on Abe 1.07 (Thanks to The Archduke for his agreement)

As Mozilla is not Netscape
As OpenOffice.org is not StarOffice
As Firebird is not Interbase (the list was endless)

Netscape continue to develop they browser... why Archduke if he want to do with Abe 1.07 cannot ?

So please... just help MattyG (if you want to decide a new name) and hope for obtention of a subforum (for facility only). And hope good luck to Archduke and maybe propose help if you want.

Good night...
 
Name suggestions.

"Action_b" - because t's the second choice which is usually more subversive and alternative.

or

"New World Order" - because it's a new version of the order of the world.

or

"Deviation" - sounds like Aberration but it isn't.

or

"People's Front of Judea" - because we are splitters.


and I don't really fancy working on a combined Aberration, if Archduke is going to continue to label the project as "his".



I say Schism.

Hey, maybe that's a name for the project! "Schism". That point where history deviates from the real world divides and forms and alternative universe...
 
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I think Crio put it very nicely and I hope even mikl can accept that.

And Mikl, Aberration I was a team effort, I hope you won´t deny medicine man, artemis6667, Byakhiam, Nik II and all the rest that.

I don´t see any reason for me to embarrased by calling the mod that I created and had the idea for my mod or to apologize for it. I actually included everyone who helped me in the startup screen. But I always preferred to have the last decision instance to be a single one.
 
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TheArchduke said:
I think Crio put it very nicely and I hope even mikl can accept that.

And Mikl, Aberration I was a team effort, I hope you won´t deny medicine man, artemis6667, Byakhiam, Nik II and all the rest that.

I don´t see any reason for me to embarrased by calling the mod that I created and had the idea for my mod or to apologize for it. I actually included everyone who helped me in the startup screen. But I always preferred to have the last decision instance to be a single one.

Sure, and you have explained that sometimes a dictator can make a cleaner job of something than a committee. I accept that. I am not trying to embarass you. You work whatever way you want to work. But from the moment Mat asked you whether we could work on this Mod, it's been clear that either a) he'd be working on something separate, or b) you'd have right of refusal for the content which our work has produced.

Since you have waited 6 months to take up that option of refusal, and since a LOT of content has now been written in the mean time, it seems clear that your assumption must be action_a

So arguing which Mod is better now seems a waste of time. I loved playing AbeI, despite the bugs, the lack of events after 1550. I think you all did a great job. Thank you. But by letting us work on it for months without your overseeing us, means you have let us take personal, emotional possession of our work, and I'll be fucked if you are going to run a pen through it. Debate it, Yes. Tinker? Yes. Disapprove and delete? No.

So let there happily be two alternative history Mods. Aberration and Deviation. Two slightly different visions, but happily sharing each others work (naturally with credit).
 
I'd like to try and summarize my personal understanding of a number of key issues that are being debated, so that it is clear where I stand and how I feel. I speak only for myself and where other people are mentioned I am not trying to speak for them, even through I might speak about them.



1. A Little History

Here is my remembrance of what has happened in the last year. I am trying to capture here the theme of it all, less than the specific details, of course.

Just over a year ago I had been playing MP Aberration and really enjoying it. I decided I wanted to try and contribute to the mod and had lots of ideas, especially about the New World and the potential for Aberrating that. I started working on some material and contributing to the -then - very quiet Aberration forums. I posted my ideas and they received very little attention. The only person who wrote positively about them was The Archduke, who said it could be an optional element, but that he personally would play with it. I still appreciate that support, it was great for my confidence.

As the weeks went on, it was really only myself and Incompetant who were contributing in a serious way in the forums and the mod was clearly in a hiatus. (That is not a criticism). I approached The Archduke to see if he would permit a new creative team to take over the mod. His three word response was "Sure, why not." Note that there were no conditions attached here, or none that I read into this permission.

However, we quickly imposed those on ourselves. Incompetant and I became the main driving force, starting and debating a lot of issues in threads. One of the things we determined was that it wasn't appropriate to simply continue Aberration, because we were obviously ready to take it in a different direction. Not better, not worse, just different. So, we decided it would be Aberration II, a different mod, but clearly drawing upon its strong connection to the original. To this day the frontispiece clearly states that Aberration II is built on Aberration 1.07 by Thomas Mittelbach. If I have my way, whatever Aberration II becomes will always retain this 'honorific'. You gotta pay tribute to your roots.

The next few months saw a lot of debate while the initial material was being prepared. By July we had released beta 2 with a lot of new dramatically new material and ideas. Check the Beta Update thread if you want to know the list of the major items. Then things got really quiet in the forums. Basically, from August to December it was essentially myself, Calipah, mikl and a few occasional commentators. Incompetant had gone off to do other things (not a criticism) and it actually felt pretty lonely at times. But material was still being produced, and I believe that much of it was of very high standard.

Then, about a month ago, there was a sudden upswing in the forum debates and the number of people offering to contribute. Incompetant returned. Beta 6 was released. The mod seemed re-energized and I was really happy that we few had kept working on it those six months.

Now we find ourselves at a bit of a crossroads. More contributors, plus The Archduke has returned to the forums and to Aberration (I). There is suddenly a lot of tension in the postings, talks of mergers and schisms.


2. Aberration II, a separate mod

I have stated it elsewhere and again here, and let me re-iterate that I see Aberration II as a distinct mod from Aberration (the original one). I am not sure what it will be called, but it will be changing its name. And perhaps we ought to have done that originally. Aberration was and is The Archduke's mod. He assembled a talented team that even included Johan himself. He laid the groundwork, built many of the files, compiled it all and probably did most of the play testing and bug checking. He had final say over what went in and what didn't. And he still has that control over Aberration, but not over Aberration II, of course. Aberration II shares many elements of vision and many structural elements and there remain a lot of file content that is identical, and which remains properly credited (I hope). But I see some very very different approaches that are as much philosophical as they are about specifics, like events or leader stats.


3. Of Merging, and Schisms

Accordingly, I don't think it is possible to merge Aberration and Aberration II. Very few mods can - or should - be merged. The AGC and EEP are probably the big exception, because there is a greater master at work, called the real and actual history of the world. There they are debating how best to express the Hundred Years War, not whether it ought to be in the mod or not. There was still a huge spat over the merger, bad feelings, which probably remain for some, and people banned from the forums. A sad business, although the result seems to have been OK. The AGCEEP continues to build brilliantly, as long as a strict -and sometimes deterministic - historicity is what you want (not a criticism). I don't think that we have the luxury of such a common worksheet, and I think that Aberration II has gone in a significantly different direction. One that I prefer, but not one that is in-and-of-itself better. Each person can make their own minds up about that, and can play whatever they want.

While I think we can't merge, I also think we can't have a schism. Any more than AGCEEP and Aberration can have a schism. We have been different essentially from the beginning and have grown more so with each passing beta. The Archduke (and others) will continue to work on Aberration and those who want to contribute to Aberration II (whatever it gets renamed) will work on it, and no doubt we may continue to borrow from one another's mods. This is a good thing.


4. Direction and Leadership

First, I want to explain what I have tried to do in terms of leadership of Aberration II. It wasn't something I sought from the beginning nor something I expect to retain. But given that I have been the main contributor and principle compiler, bug-checking and forum writer, leadership fell to me. Remember that most of the last seven months has been myself, Calipah and mikl. Not to denigrate anyone else's forum contributions or criticize anyone at all. Seriously. But, at the end of the day, I was leading the project. However, I have tried to maintain the collegial intent and have never ever seen this as my mod. People post or send their material to me. I read it carefully and almost always send back the material with comments and alterations, ready to continue to debate the merits of each event and how a storyline is structured and plays out. Almost always the response from the original writer is "Cool" or "Fine". Sometimes people have objected to a change, and so it goes back in. I have really tried to not be a gatekeeper, though I have certainly tried to maintain certain standards, especially with regards cheap manufactories, troops, fortresses, cultures and cores. If I have been heavy handed in these changes then no-one has expressed that to me and I remain committed to a team approach, however imperfect it has been. I am particularly proud of the working relationship I have developed with Calipah and our work on the Islamic world. We continue to build some fantastic stories and challenges.

The merits of collegiality versus someone with a final declarative say are being debated here. That's a healthy thing in principle, but it is occurring within the broader context of The Archduke's return, his strong criticisms of elements of Aberration II, and his suggestions of a merger. Some people are interpreting his talk of merger as a thinly-veiled attempt to take over the mod (Aberration II, that is, Aberration IS his). I have seen no indication that he would accept someone else as the final arbiter in a unified mod, but perhaps he would and has simply not made this explicit enough for me. If Aberration II were to go to a structure like the one for Aberration, my personal involvement would be predicated on that leader being someone who has a longstanding contribution to the thematic development of Aberration II, for which there are (currently) really only four candidates: Incompetant (despite his long absence), Calipah, mikl and myself. Not that I think we need that structure, but that's only my opinion.


5. Onwards

The forum has become an un-fun place recently. I like lively debate but not the kind of acrimony that seems to be developing. I will continue to contribute as my limited time allows, building content, compiling, bug-fixing and writing on the forums. But if it continues to be unfun, then I will likely back away, as I do not enjoy confrontation and this is supposed to be a fun and creative outlet for me.

So, I look forward to all the positive debates that will occur and please keep sending in the ideas and material while we debate a name change.

Regards,

MattyG
 
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As for a new name, how about ...


A World of Difference (AWD for short, I guess)

MattyG
 
Deviants perhaps.