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MattyG

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Mar 23, 2003
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The Great Western Europe Debate


I have offered to take on the role of coordinating the re-writes for The-country-formerly-known-as-France. This will eventually put me at odds with every single Aberration player. Given that Aberation has as its raison d’etre the multiplayer arena, and given that almost all multiplayer games involve Europe, it stands to reason that Brittany, Burgundy, Savoy and the theatre of Gaul plays a critical role in almost every game of Aberration. Meaning that everyone who plays Aberration will have strong feelings on this theatre of play. Meaning that I cannot win by taking on the task of changing it all.

Good thing this is the internet and nobody really knows where I live, except mikl, nlilith and jcain. (Bribes are in the mail, guys.)

Within the context of MP, the plan has always been to create a large number of medium-sized powers, each with their own strategy for success. Inevitably, the power levels between them were never going to be perfect in the first drafts, and of course, it is impossible to have them all exactly ‘equal’ in strength. (What is ‘equal’ anyway, right?) However, there are certainly noticeable disparities between some of the core medium powers.

I have a plan. The plan is to make sure that each of these three main countries have two obvious paths to victory, two options for culture expansion, and at least two opponents for each of their potential paths. I would then hope that a similar concept be extended beyond into the British Isles and Germany.


Brittany

Core cultures: Gaelic and Anglosaxon
Culture expansion: French, at Anglosaxon expense, or a chance to convert some provinces to Gaelic

Path 1: Brittany Rules the Waves
Focus on colonisation, with no chance for gaining French culture, but the opportunity to convert some provinces to Gaelic. Current level of explorers and conquistadors. Begins with only a few extra cores on some French provinces. Few generals, but more admirals.

Path 2: Pax Gael
Focus on Europe. Few explorers and conquistadors, but the opportunity to gain French culture at the expense of Anglosaxon. More cores gained and more generals, but fewer admirals.


Burgundy

Core culture: French
Cultural expansion: Dutch or German, but not both.

Path 1: Lowlands to the Sea
Focus is on Trade, first through dominating the lowlands then with colonization. Can gain Dutch culture and gets more admirals than Generals.

Path 2: Holy Burgundian Empire
Focus on uniting central Europe to maintain stability. Can gain German culture (and lose it too, if it absorbs too many minors). Fewer explorers and admirals but more Generals.


Savoy

Core Culture: French
Cultural expansion: Can gain Swiss and convert some Occitan provinces to French, or can gain Occitan. Either way has a few cores on Italian provinces.

Path 1: Vive la Savoie!
Attempt to dominate the Alps and central France, gaining fewer explorers and admirals, but gaining cores throughout French and Swiss provinces and can gain Swiss culture. More Generals, and some Occitan provinces can be converted to French..

Path 2: Maitresse de la Mer
Focus on the Meditteranean and colonization, with the chance to gain cores on the Occitan provinces and some Mediterranean islands. More admirals and explorers, few Generals. Can gain Occitan culture.


Also, I would like to introduce the follow new chap on the block ….


Pays d’Oc

Possible only as a revolter/vassal after 1540.

Core culture: Occitan
Cultural expansion: can covert one or two provinces to Occitan.

Path 1: A Cathartic Experience
Solidify Occitan in the south of France and focus on land forces to achieve this, gaining no explorers but better generals and some cores on French provinces.

Path 2: I’ll be Gensian
Make enough bad puns that we are forced to explore westwards. Gain explorers and more admirals, but no cores beyond Occitan provinces.


All of this will interact with the German restructuring and the British Isles restructuring. Our goal should be to have every region and every culture have two or more competing medium-sized nations, plus the feisty minors.

In relation to this, the concept above when adapted to a few other nations might look like this ….


Bavaria

Core culture: German
Cultural expansion: Can gain Dutch culture or can gain Swiss culture and convert some Hansa provinces to German.

Path 1: United Germany
Focus on central Europe and uniting all of the German provinces. Gains no exploers or Admirals but has strong land military and can gain Swiss culture and covert some Hansa provinces to German.

Path 2: The Dutch Inheritance
Can pursue the Dutch provinces, gaining dutch culture and explorers, but at the expense of some German cores and some key generals.


Hansa

Core culture: Hansa
Cultural expansion: Can gain Anglosaxon or can convert some German provinces to Hansa.

Path 1: Trade, Trade, Trade
Good explorers and Admirals and the chance to gain Anglosaxon culture as a key pathway to the Atlantic and the New World. Gains one or two cores in other-cultured provinces.

Path 2: Hansa-mania
Plan to expand the dream of unitiing all of the wealthy german-speking cities in one furious trade federation! Fewer explorers but better generals. Gain more cores on German provinces, and can covert some of them to Hansa culture. (Note: never gains German culture).
 
I agree, there should be a number of overlapping cultures. Love your work. But rather than the Hansa heading west into anglosaxon, they should be bridging the west/east divide but moving into Baltic culture.

So...

Burgundy starting with french but getting dutch.

The United Provinces created with dutch, but getting hanseatic.

Hansa starting with hanseatic but getting baltic.

Teutonic Order starting with baltic and getting polish and german.

Poland starting with polish but getting screwed by TO and Hungary.


I think the posiibility must exist for cultures to overlap all the way to China. Or do they already?
 
MattyG said:
Brittany

Core cultures: Gaelic and Anglosaxon
Culture expansion: French, at Anglosaxon expense, or a chance to convert some provinces to Gaelic

Path 1: Brittany Rules the Waves
Focus on colonisation, with no chance for gaining French culture, but the opportunity to convert some provinces to Gaelic. Current level of explorers and conquistadors. Begins with only a few extra cores on some French provinces. Few generals, but more admirals.

Path 2: Pax Gael
Focus on Europe. Few explorers and conquistadors, but the opportunity to gain French culture at the expense of Anglosaxon. More cores gained and more generals, but fewer admirals.

I was thinking much the same, except that Brittany would start with Gaelic, French and not Anglosaxon. The important thing though is when the decision comes and how it is made.


MattyG said:
Burgundy

Core culture: French
Cultural expansion: Dutch or German, but not both.

Path 1: Lowlands to the Sea
Focus is on Trade, first through dominating the lowlands then with colonization. Can gain Dutch culture and gets more admirals than Generals.

Path 2: Holy Burgundian Empire
Focus on uniting central Europe to maintain stability. Can gain German culture (and lose it too, if it absorbs too many minors). Fewer explorers and admirals but more Generals.

I'm still a bit concerned about Burgundy getting German culture. What about Burgundian culture?


MattyG said:
Savoy

Core Culture: French
Cultural expansion: Can gain Swiss and convert some Occitan provinces to French, or can gain Occitan. Either way has a few cores on Italian provinces.

Path 1: Vive la Savoie!
Attempt to dominate the Alps and central France, gaining fewer explorers and admirals, but gaining cores throughout French and Swiss provinces and can gain Swiss culture. More Generals, and some Occitan provinces can be converted to French..

Path 2: Maitresse de la Mer
Focus on the Meditteranean and colonization, with the chance to gain cores on the Occitan provinces and some Mediterranean islands. More admirals and explorers, few Generals. Can gain Occitan culture.

Savoy should definitely be able to get Occitan, as with Burgundy and Genoa in the way, it's their only natural expansion route. What I'm not so sure about is whether they should get French. I thought the idea of the culture split was to make it impossible (or very, very hard) to assimilate the whole of France?


MattyG said:
Also, I would like to introduce the follow new chap on the block ….


Pays d’Oc

Possible only as a revolter/vassal after 1540.

Core culture: Occitan
Cultural expansion: can covert one or two provinces to Occitan.

Path 1: A Cathartic Experience
Solidify Occitan in the south of France and focus on land forces to achieve this, gaining no explorers but better generals and some cores on French provinces.

Path 2: I’ll be Gensian
Make enough bad puns that we are forced to explore westwards. Gain explorers and more admirals, but no cores beyond Occitan provinces.

Will this be covering the same area as the potential Cordoban protectorate? Will it be the same tag? Cordoba may protect Protestants, but they certainly won't tolerate Cathars.


MattyG said:
All of this will interact with the German restructuring and the British Isles restructuring. Our goal should be to have every region and every culture have two or more competing medium-sized nations, plus the feisty minors.

In relation to this, the concept above when adapted to a few other nations might look like this ….


Bavaria

Core culture: German
Cultural expansion: Can gain Dutch culture or can gain Swiss culture and convert some Hansa provinces to German.

Path 1: United Germany
Focus on central Europe and uniting all of the German provinces. Gains no exploers or Admirals but has strong land military and can gain Swiss culture and covert some Hansa provinces to German.

Path 2: The Dutch Inheritance
Can pursue the Dutch provinces, gaining dutch culture and explorers, but at the expense of some German cores and some key generals.

I was thinking something similar, but the key decision is during the Reformation: Bavaria is Catholic, but how Catholic?

1. Aggressively enforce the Catholic faith - triggers an international event set, epo_ger. In it, Bavaria loses Dutch culture permanently, and has to fight a LOT, both internally and externally, but becomes the leader of the Catholic world for the duration of the war, and a formidable land power with quite a few cores. During this period the HRE is in complete chaos, but when the dust settles, and many of the old minors in the HRE have been destroyed in the fighting, if Bavaria is victorious, it's left holding most of the pieces. I wouldn't let them completely crush Hansa culture though - we can have the north coast as a lingering bastion of heresy.

2. Pursue reconciliation with the Protestants - Bavaria keeps Dutch culture, and not a lot happens. This Bavaria can go colonial later etc.


MattyG said:
Hansa

Core culture: Hansa
Cultural expansion: Can gain Anglosaxon or can convert some German provinces to Hansa.

Path 1: Trade, Trade, Trade
Good explorers and Admirals and the chance to gain Anglosaxon culture as a key pathway to the Atlantic and the New World. Gains one or two cores in other-cultured provinces.

Path 2: Hansa-mania
Plan to expand the dream of unitiing all of the wealthy german-speking cities in one furious trade federation! Fewer explorers but better generals. Gain more cores on German provinces, and can covert some of them to Hansa culture. (Note: never gains German culture).

Hmm. I would say give the Hansa their own culture, with the possibility of Dutch and maybe some very minor cultures, but not anglosaxon.
 
What about letting Hansa decide if they will focus on eastern trade or western trade like this
a) focus on western trade: can get dutch culture, will gain more explorers, can get dutch cores

b) focus on esatern trade: can get baltic culture, gain core on Danzig, can covert culture in danzig to hanseatic, can gain baltic cores, less explorers.

If Bavaria lose dutch culture in the supreme- catholic event, a massive dutch revolt maybe should occur.

I'm also thinking Burgundy maybe should go after Swabia and gain swiss/swabian culture. Could be an event wher Bavaria offer them an opportunity to go after swabian territory for the expense of some cores on Bavarian interrests.
 
Hansa as they were, do not truly have the same "nation" status as say Burgundy was. it is not even apples to oranges, it is apples to wheelbarrows. The were not truly a state. They were even less a state than Livonian order. There was not one hanseanic culture. even in alternative history mode.

To give you an example of the scope of the mistake. Say 500 years from now someone decides to make a recomputation of today. based on what they understand. So they assign equal values to Liberia, City of New York and all of Chicago Bulls fans. Hansa to Burgundy is what Chicago Bulls (a sports team) fans is to The city of New York.

For example from here about Novgorod and pskov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League

(The reason the Russian cities like Novgorod, Pskov or Tver were listed here as Hanseatic is perhaps the strong presence of Hanseatic merchants in these cities. However, there is no way any German merchants or the Hanseatic League had anything to do with administering these Russian cities.)

So to cut story short.

I love your project. I really do. Hansa is scripted very well, along with TO and Burgundy that i played so far. Yet they were not a culture, or a true military power in the same sense TO were.

Just 2 extra cents
 
What is the plan for a Muslim France?Cordoba's expansion isnt enough, perhaps the Muslim French protectorate should try to claim the crown through events?
?
 
Calipah said:
What is the plan for a Muslim France?Cordoba's expansion isnt enough, perhaps the Muslim French protectorate should try to claim the crown through events?
?

We haven't got a specific plan yet, but I think we're going to keep at least some of the current storyline. I would suggest the following basic ideas:

- Cordoba may get occitan culture, but not french, burgundian etc

- If Cordoba is to take over and assimiliate the Pays d'Oc, it has to be 'invited' by the locals. But why would they do this? The motives for inviting the Muslims in is more MattyG's area, but when I'm doing Cordoba's side of things, I'll assume that the Caliphate has significant support in the pays d'Oc before I start giving them a licence to conquer.

- Cordoba's adventures in the Pays d'Oc should entail signifcant costs elsewhere, especially if it goes all out for occitan culture. For balance purposes, I think we have to say that a fully Occitan-oriented Cordoba will be only a moderate colonial power, and in particular will not be able to get cores, CBs etc all over Africa.


We need to look at the overall difficulty of the Occitan route. At the moment, it's a very, very hard and unnatural course of action, partly for the following reason: Cordoba can expand by diploannexation and even inheritance in Africa, which makes for a low BB burden (very low indeed if Cordoba 'feeds' Morocco from the start of the game). On the other hand, to take over the Pays d'Oc, Cordoba has to conquer and force-annex a number of minors without any cores on them, then it releases a vassal, then it gets to inherit it again for yet more BB. My proposal is this:

1. Cordoba is invited into the Pays d'Oc: this gives them maybe 4 cores, enough to establish a viable protectorate.

2. Once they take these cores, they can release a protectorate. Failure to do so results in BB, and stops the chain. But if they release the protectorate, they drop those cores and get more cores on the rest of the Pays d'Oc. This is to allow the player to fight and acquire land on behalf of the protectorate.

3. Whenever Cordoba takes one of these new cores, they get an event offering to cede it to the protectorate. Doing so gives them no discount on BB, but if they fail to do so they are fined 1BB per province. (This will usually be enough to get players to hand over the provinces.) Whenever the protectorate gets an Occitan province, Cordoba loses its core there.

4. Much later, if the Malwas take over, and most Occitan provinces are controlled by either Cordoba or the protectorate (the protectorate doesn't have to be alive at this point) they can claim the crown of 'France', inheriting the protectorate and gaining its cores and culture. This gives a modest BB penalty (say 4BB) on top of the inheritance, and gives the other French powers a very long-lived CB on Cordoba.

Estimated total cost to Cordoba:
* 14BB (4 by event, 2.5 for inheritance, 4 or 5 for DOWs, 3 for the odd force-annexation) - this is very approximate, but I hope it's clear that it isn't going to be for free, even under a competent human player, because the area is likely to be full of unmarryable minors. AI Cordoba would accrue much more BB to achieve the same result.

* Loss of Morocco (when Malwas take over)

* Tech group drops from Latin to Orthodox (ditto)

* The French powers will be pissed off - you'll pretty much have to crush Savoy

* about 150 years of faffing about, trying to keep the Protectorate alive

Benefits:
* potentially 100-150 years' ownership of about 10 occitan provinces, together with culture and cores (but you'll probably have to convert them yourself)

* Weakens the French powers, especially Savoy
 
Matt_G
RaR Civilopedia Helper

Be that you Matt? if so props man. double props i mean
 
yourworstnightm said:
Savoy is quite weak already, but anyway good ideas.

Yes, this is one of the major balance problems at the moment. Cordoba's adventures in France will probably happen in less than half of games; also, if we have it triggered by resentment of the Savoyards, Cordoba will only get the events if Savoy is strong and/or extremely stupid.
 
tarakan said:
Matt_G
RaR Civilopedia Helper

Be that you Matt? if so props man. double props i mean

Nope, not me. What does props mean?
 
Incompetent said:
Yes, this is one of the major balance problems at the moment. Cordoba's adventures in France will probably happen in less than half of games; also, if we have it triggered by resentment of the Savoyards, Cordoba will only get the events if Savoy is strong and/or extremely stupid.

Which means the events will likely happen if Savoy is ai controlled. Unless its a MP game that includes Genoa and Brittany and Burgundy, in which case Savoy will not likely survive. But that's the fun of the mix, right? I don;t think a player should always be able to chose a path knowing that it will all happen according to plan.
 
Noun 1. props - proper respect; "I have to give my props to the governor for the way he handled the problem"
deference, respect - a courteous expression (by word or deed) of esteem or regard; "his deference to her wishes was very flattering"; "be sure to give my respects to the dean"
 
Imrryran said:
I'm French and I think "Pays d'Oc" is not a very good name.

Occitanie would be better for example.

Je parle francais, mais je cede a votre connaissance superieure. Merci pour avoir nous conseiller au meilleur nom pour le pays des Ocs. Si vous avez des autres suggestions, je les receverrai heurreusement.

Pardonez-moi pour tous mes erreurs grammaticales!
 
I guess your French is better than my poor English. ;)

Concerning Brittany, it may be interesting to recall that Galicia (in Spain), although it is an iberian province, has a celtic culture. This may lead to special interest from the other celtic nations.
 
Provided Celtic Ireland and Celtic Brettany ally and or engulf each other it seems plausible they wpuld want to dominate north coast of span and west coast of france, sort of making that part of atlantic ocean their private sea to control trade through. The region is immence and such and undertaking would be not for the weak of heart or mind
 
tarakan said:
Provided Celtic Ireland and Celtic Brettany ally and or engulf each other it seems plausible they wpuld want to dominate north coast of span and west coast of france, sort of making that part of atlantic ocean their private sea to control trade through. The region is immence and such and undertaking would be not for the weak of heart or mind

I think this is an excellent concept that needs to be worked into the 1650s onwards part of their histories/events. It would need to work in counterpoise to the goals of Granada, perhaps being more deliberate if Granada presses harder eastwards.