It also depends on the timeline for colonisation, as I understand it this will be moved later. So if Brittany only has a handful of colonies by 1580 it might not be such a big deal, it might even serve as a brake on new world expansion.
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Incompetant's point about colonies etc is one I had not considered.
Staring them as Brythonic makes sense, and I like your cultural division.
tarakan, I think we can make Scottish a minor culture without making Scotland a minor country. If Scotland can have Scottish, Gaelic and Anglo-saxon, it becomes functionally the same for it as if all the British Isles were Scotish.
Making smaller cultures allows us to have more prizes, limitations, boundaries etc. It means that if no one else has Scotish culture then annexing them is a little less appealing, so this helps them too, right? Of course, there would have to be events that allowed Norway and Eire and York to be able to gain Scotish culture under the right circumstances, but maybe not start with them.
Staring them as Brythonic makes sense, and I like your cultural division.
tarakan, I think we can make Scottish a minor culture without making Scotland a minor country. If Scotland can have Scottish, Gaelic and Anglo-saxon, it becomes functionally the same for it as if all the British Isles were Scotish.
Making smaller cultures allows us to have more prizes, limitations, boundaries etc. It means that if no one else has Scotish culture then annexing them is a little less appealing, so this helps them too, right? Of course, there would have to be events that allowed Norway and Eire and York to be able to gain Scotish culture under the right circumstances, but maybe not start with them.
MattyG said:
Ok; shall we say for the moment that 'brythonic' can be represented by dyola and 'scottish' by tuareg?
Making Wales brythonic would probably make Wales more interresting for Brittany than Eire (human players). Maybe Eire should be able to get brythonic if they inherit Wales.
The cultures keep changing, and so according my plan does as well. As I see it, Eire and Brittany will be in a similar boat, in that they both should have paths that end with them gaining cultures in the British Isles. There will be costs, pre-requisites etc. Both should be able to unite the old Celtic-heritage countries, and maybe Scotland should be able to as well.
Brittany Gaining Gaelic
1. Brittany cannot have gained French culture, or must lost it if it already has.
2. If it gains Eire by diplo-annexation it can gain Gaelic culture as early as 1600.
3. If it conquers Eire, then the same culture-adding event does not trigger until 1700,an Act of Union type event.
Eire Gaining Brythonic
1. It can gain Brythonic only by owning Wales and all-but-capital of Brittany (or the capital as well, of course).
2. If Brittany is taken by conquest, then as above it would occur in 1700.
3. If by diplo-annexation, then from 1600 onwards.
4. Wales will convert to Gaelic culture if owned by Eire for a century of more.
(Diplo-annexation/conquest would be determined by triggering an event if there is war between them, then having the next event using the war event as a trigger along with owndership: result, it recognises it as conquest derived rather than political/inheritance. If ownership only is acheived, it can only have happened by diploannexing through 'peaceful' means.)
Brittany Gaining Gaelic
1. Brittany cannot have gained French culture, or must lost it if it already has.
2. If it gains Eire by diplo-annexation it can gain Gaelic culture as early as 1600.
3. If it conquers Eire, then the same culture-adding event does not trigger until 1700,an Act of Union type event.
Eire Gaining Brythonic
1. It can gain Brythonic only by owning Wales and all-but-capital of Brittany (or the capital as well, of course).
2. If Brittany is taken by conquest, then as above it would occur in 1700.
3. If by diplo-annexation, then from 1600 onwards.
4. Wales will convert to Gaelic culture if owned by Eire for a century of more.
(Diplo-annexation/conquest would be determined by triggering an event if there is war between them, then having the next event using the war event as a trigger along with owndership: result, it recognises it as conquest derived rather than political/inheritance. If ownership only is acheived, it can only have happened by diploannexing through 'peaceful' means.)
MattyG said:
Perhaps a condition for forming a pan-Celtic empire should be religious unity, eg if Catholic Eire takes over Brittany, it won't get Brythonic until all the Breton provinces are Catholic as well. This makes it possible to get the culture, but not so easy that players will feel they're getting it for free; it also removes one of the big freebies from the equation, that of absurdly easy conversions.
Scotland will be able to have Gaelic fairly easy thanks to the Highlands. But I'd be reluctant to give them Brythonic as well. England will be get rich enough under Scottish rule!
Incompetent said:
Definitely the religious question has to be part of the equation. If Brittany is protestant, she won't get caothlic Gaelic culture. One less reason for her to go protestant, although she could still get anglo-saxon.
Perhaps that's yet another layer of intrigue. Anglo saxon is gained and lost not only on ownership but also on having right-religion.
As for the a pan-British Isles, I just don't see the event triggering until late game. It has a solid 1750s feel to it for me. If all else fails and you own all of Britain, Ireland and Brittany by 1750, you could claim a Greater Brittania stle kingdom and thereby gain all of the cultures, losing French and Norweigian if you happen to have either. Just a beginning idea.
OK, I have been giving more thought to France/Gaul. I need to build something like this from a foundation if an appropriate storyline is to be created for each of these countries. Here is my first offering on the recent Aberrated History of Gaul, centering it on France and Burgundy and the major events that have led us to the game start position. Let me know what you think.
The critical Aberrated history of the region begins in earnest in 1380 with the death of Charles V, King of France. Charles and Jeanne had many children, the males becoming counts and dukes of many of Charles’ possessions late in his reign. The daughters were prized marriages and given to influential dukes and foreign kings to cement the power of the French court. Charles imagined at his death that his first son would work to inherit not only France but also Burgundy, parts of England and also Navarre. Events did not unfold as he foresaw.
Close to the death of Charles, war and revolts marred his reign. Louis, Count of Anjou – a loyal vassal – died and his son Louis II was set to inherit the Duchy of Provence as well. The Duke of Savoy refused to accept his inheritance and claimed the province. When Charles V did not back Louis in his claims, Louis rose in revolt, sensing Charles’ age and weakness. Backed by the Duke of Brittany, Louis II raised an army and claimed the royal lands within Anjou, capturing the royal castle at Angers and defeating the French army in their attempt to cross the Loire and lay siege to the city.
When Charles the VI came to the throne, he was under the regency of his uncle Jean, Duke of Berry. Jean’s early campaigns as regent were disastrous, being defeated by the forces of Brittany and Anjou at Baugé, by the Navarese and Savoyard forces at Liborne and had to accept peace terms dictated by Raymond Longbow of Normandy, in which Caux was ceded to Normandy. Charles VI died during a fit, and with Jean still regent he claimed the throne in place of Charles’ brother, Louis, Duke of Orleans, who was also young. This triggered the Salic War.
The Salic War pitted Jean of Berry and nobles loyal to him (with much to gain from his victory) against his rival claimants, Louis, Duke of Orleans and Louis of Anjou, Jean’s brother. Louis, Duke of Orleans was supported by his uncle Phillip the Bold, the Duke of Burgundy. To the south, Guillaume, the Duke of Bordeaux and husband of Jeanne, daughter of Charles V, supported Louis once the young heir promised to make him Duke of Guyenne, reestablishing the former duchy in the provinces of Gascony, Guyenne and Poitou.
Jean enjoyed early success in the battles of Ingraninas and Mehun-sur-Yevre and by 1389 he controlled Orleans. That year, Louis married Marie-claude, daughter of Phillip the Bold, Duke of Burgundy. In the south, the new Duke of Languedoc, seeing Phillip as the eventual victor and desiring his to recognize his ownership of Languedoc, rallied to his cause, assisting in defeating the forces of Guyenne and Brittany in the battles of Plaisance and Liniers. The war was eroding support for Jean and he moved on Paris to attempt to force a treaty with Louis and Phillip. The siege of Paris lasted 2 years and only ended with the death of Jean of Berry. A temporary peace was made with Louis of Anjou and his backer the King of Brittany. The new King Louis II would not accept the former’s claimed inheritance on Languedoc, as he had received crucial support from the new Duke and he and Phillip needed to ensure peace with Languedoc’s liege, the King of Savoy.
The Kingdom of France seemed secure again, and there followed a period of peace until the death by drowning of Louis II in 1408. Louis IIs wife Marie-Claude, had by this time born him a daughter, Genevieve and son, Charles. Phillip immediately appointed himself regent of the young prince and made permanent peace with Brittany, guaranteeing them Anjou at the death of the ailing and childless Louis of Anjou (his brother) in exchange for recognition of Charles as king and himself as regent. In the south, the Dukes of Guyenne and Auverne also swore allegiance to the Charles VII. The new peace confirmed the salic inheritance laws for the kingdom. Phillip ensures the marriage of Genevieve to his son Robert, the future Duke of Burgundy. At Phillip’s death in 1411, Robert assumes the role of Regent to the young King of France, Charles VII.
In February of 1416, Charles VII dies, childless at 13 years of age. Robert, Duke of Burgundy is pressed to claim the throne by many of his nobles. This would effectively unite the Kingdom and the Duchy for good and create a powerful kingdom that would be a significant threat to its neighbours, especially Savoy and Brittany. War would in all likelihood ensue. Robert nonetheless claims the throne of France and prepares for war. The King of Brittany allies with the young Francois, Duke of Guyenne, who claims the title of King through his father, the brother of Charles VI and the rightful claimant under strict salic law. The King of Savoy, already concerned with a growing conflict with Genoa and Swabia, offers little support, but does not prevent the Dukes of Languedoc and Auverge from siding against Robert.
Robert wins a major victory at Hézy, but his general, Count Benoit of Boucher, is soundly defeated at Pont de Gouchard. Smaller conflicts dominate the campaigning season of 1417, hampered by poor weather and heavy rains in much of central Gaul. In July 1418, despite a limited victory at Aix-la-montagne, Robert is wounded and dies a week later. Amedee, King of Savoy, convenes a peace treaty that sees the throne of France ceded neither to Francois, nor Phillipe III, the future Duke of Burgundy. The Kings of Brittany and Savoy, settle what was for them a long-standing question of avoiding the growth of the Kingdom of France. Along with Phillipe’s regent, the Count of Jura, they decide upon the division of France, and the end of the old kingdom. Francois, having no powerful backer, retreats to Guyenne, accepting lordship over three provinces but recognising no leige.
And so the game opens in 1419. Burgundy is ruled by the regent, Jacques, Count of Jura. Soon Phillipe will become Duke of Burgundy and face the difficult question of the direction his new realm should go.
Ownership of Gaul would be as follows:
Burgundy has been granted control of the provinces of Picardy, Calais and Champagne, in addition to Burgogne, Franche-comte and Nivernais.
The Duchy of Guyenne controls Guyenne, Gascony and Poitou.
The Duchy of Auverne is recognized as controlling Limousin, Auverne and Cevennes.
Finally, as a counterpoint to the claims of Francois, Charles Bourbon, son of Jean and the new Duke of Berri, is granted many of the lands his father failed to claim: Vendee, Berri, Orleanais and Isle de France.
Where does this Aberrated history lead us?
Burgundy will face its major questions very early in the game. Phillipe III (le Bon) will rise to become Duke. He will need to chose a path for the Duchy. Will he maintain a claim on France and continue the wars his father fought? Or will he chose another? One of the options in this critical event for him/the player is that he will petition the Pope that instead he be recognized as King of Burgundy. This will be a critical move on his part and is the ‘historical’ action_a option. The pope agrees to acknowledging him as king, knowing that it concedes his claim to the kingdom of France, but also disputes any claims a future king of France might have over the original Ducal lands. It also sets Burgundy on a path toward German inheritances and German culture or Dutch inheritances and Dutch culture.
Can France be reborn? Yes, but don’t panic. France in Aberration would not be the France of Vanilla. Different event, leader and monarch lists, of course. And it can only be claimed by three countries: Guyenne, Bourbon and Burgundy if Phillipe III chooses action_b “Maintain our claim on France”. And establishing France would require ownership of most of the French culture provinces, something Guyenne or Bourbon would likely only achieve player controlled in SP.
The critical Aberrated history of the region begins in earnest in 1380 with the death of Charles V, King of France. Charles and Jeanne had many children, the males becoming counts and dukes of many of Charles’ possessions late in his reign. The daughters were prized marriages and given to influential dukes and foreign kings to cement the power of the French court. Charles imagined at his death that his first son would work to inherit not only France but also Burgundy, parts of England and also Navarre. Events did not unfold as he foresaw.
Close to the death of Charles, war and revolts marred his reign. Louis, Count of Anjou – a loyal vassal – died and his son Louis II was set to inherit the Duchy of Provence as well. The Duke of Savoy refused to accept his inheritance and claimed the province. When Charles V did not back Louis in his claims, Louis rose in revolt, sensing Charles’ age and weakness. Backed by the Duke of Brittany, Louis II raised an army and claimed the royal lands within Anjou, capturing the royal castle at Angers and defeating the French army in their attempt to cross the Loire and lay siege to the city.
When Charles the VI came to the throne, he was under the regency of his uncle Jean, Duke of Berry. Jean’s early campaigns as regent were disastrous, being defeated by the forces of Brittany and Anjou at Baugé, by the Navarese and Savoyard forces at Liborne and had to accept peace terms dictated by Raymond Longbow of Normandy, in which Caux was ceded to Normandy. Charles VI died during a fit, and with Jean still regent he claimed the throne in place of Charles’ brother, Louis, Duke of Orleans, who was also young. This triggered the Salic War.
The Salic War pitted Jean of Berry and nobles loyal to him (with much to gain from his victory) against his rival claimants, Louis, Duke of Orleans and Louis of Anjou, Jean’s brother. Louis, Duke of Orleans was supported by his uncle Phillip the Bold, the Duke of Burgundy. To the south, Guillaume, the Duke of Bordeaux and husband of Jeanne, daughter of Charles V, supported Louis once the young heir promised to make him Duke of Guyenne, reestablishing the former duchy in the provinces of Gascony, Guyenne and Poitou.
Jean enjoyed early success in the battles of Ingraninas and Mehun-sur-Yevre and by 1389 he controlled Orleans. That year, Louis married Marie-claude, daughter of Phillip the Bold, Duke of Burgundy. In the south, the new Duke of Languedoc, seeing Phillip as the eventual victor and desiring his to recognize his ownership of Languedoc, rallied to his cause, assisting in defeating the forces of Guyenne and Brittany in the battles of Plaisance and Liniers. The war was eroding support for Jean and he moved on Paris to attempt to force a treaty with Louis and Phillip. The siege of Paris lasted 2 years and only ended with the death of Jean of Berry. A temporary peace was made with Louis of Anjou and his backer the King of Brittany. The new King Louis II would not accept the former’s claimed inheritance on Languedoc, as he had received crucial support from the new Duke and he and Phillip needed to ensure peace with Languedoc’s liege, the King of Savoy.
The Kingdom of France seemed secure again, and there followed a period of peace until the death by drowning of Louis II in 1408. Louis IIs wife Marie-Claude, had by this time born him a daughter, Genevieve and son, Charles. Phillip immediately appointed himself regent of the young prince and made permanent peace with Brittany, guaranteeing them Anjou at the death of the ailing and childless Louis of Anjou (his brother) in exchange for recognition of Charles as king and himself as regent. In the south, the Dukes of Guyenne and Auverne also swore allegiance to the Charles VII. The new peace confirmed the salic inheritance laws for the kingdom. Phillip ensures the marriage of Genevieve to his son Robert, the future Duke of Burgundy. At Phillip’s death in 1411, Robert assumes the role of Regent to the young King of France, Charles VII.
In February of 1416, Charles VII dies, childless at 13 years of age. Robert, Duke of Burgundy is pressed to claim the throne by many of his nobles. This would effectively unite the Kingdom and the Duchy for good and create a powerful kingdom that would be a significant threat to its neighbours, especially Savoy and Brittany. War would in all likelihood ensue. Robert nonetheless claims the throne of France and prepares for war. The King of Brittany allies with the young Francois, Duke of Guyenne, who claims the title of King through his father, the brother of Charles VI and the rightful claimant under strict salic law. The King of Savoy, already concerned with a growing conflict with Genoa and Swabia, offers little support, but does not prevent the Dukes of Languedoc and Auverge from siding against Robert.
Robert wins a major victory at Hézy, but his general, Count Benoit of Boucher, is soundly defeated at Pont de Gouchard. Smaller conflicts dominate the campaigning season of 1417, hampered by poor weather and heavy rains in much of central Gaul. In July 1418, despite a limited victory at Aix-la-montagne, Robert is wounded and dies a week later. Amedee, King of Savoy, convenes a peace treaty that sees the throne of France ceded neither to Francois, nor Phillipe III, the future Duke of Burgundy. The Kings of Brittany and Savoy, settle what was for them a long-standing question of avoiding the growth of the Kingdom of France. Along with Phillipe’s regent, the Count of Jura, they decide upon the division of France, and the end of the old kingdom. Francois, having no powerful backer, retreats to Guyenne, accepting lordship over three provinces but recognising no leige.
And so the game opens in 1419. Burgundy is ruled by the regent, Jacques, Count of Jura. Soon Phillipe will become Duke of Burgundy and face the difficult question of the direction his new realm should go.
Ownership of Gaul would be as follows:
Burgundy has been granted control of the provinces of Picardy, Calais and Champagne, in addition to Burgogne, Franche-comte and Nivernais.
The Duchy of Guyenne controls Guyenne, Gascony and Poitou.
The Duchy of Auverne is recognized as controlling Limousin, Auverne and Cevennes.
Finally, as a counterpoint to the claims of Francois, Charles Bourbon, son of Jean and the new Duke of Berri, is granted many of the lands his father failed to claim: Vendee, Berri, Orleanais and Isle de France.
Where does this Aberrated history lead us?
Burgundy will face its major questions very early in the game. Phillipe III (le Bon) will rise to become Duke. He will need to chose a path for the Duchy. Will he maintain a claim on France and continue the wars his father fought? Or will he chose another? One of the options in this critical event for him/the player is that he will petition the Pope that instead he be recognized as King of Burgundy. This will be a critical move on his part and is the ‘historical’ action_a option. The pope agrees to acknowledging him as king, knowing that it concedes his claim to the kingdom of France, but also disputes any claims a future king of France might have over the original Ducal lands. It also sets Burgundy on a path toward German inheritances and German culture or Dutch inheritances and Dutch culture.
Can France be reborn? Yes, but don’t panic. France in Aberration would not be the France of Vanilla. Different event, leader and monarch lists, of course. And it can only be claimed by three countries: Guyenne, Bourbon and Burgundy if Phillipe III chooses action_b “Maintain our claim on France”. And establishing France would require ownership of most of the French culture provinces, something Guyenne or Bourbon would likely only achieve player controlled in SP.
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A reborn France should be much smaller, and Guyenne should only be able to recreate France before the reformation, since the occitan support for protestantism will get so strong thet the dukes no longer can identify themselves as french, but as occitans. asame goes for Auvergne.
Should Berri really own Il de France, or should Paris be an independent republic (vassal of Berri) only being claimable if France is recreated. Also Berri could have problems with a revolting Orleans. (If Berri survive it could become a catholic countrpart against the many protestant realms in France).
Should Berri really own Il de France, or should Paris be an independent republic (vassal of Berri) only being claimable if France is recreated. Also Berri could have problems with a revolting Orleans. (If Berri survive it could become a catholic countrpart against the many protestant realms in France).
yourworstnightm said:
I think we could have Orleanais as the independent republic. It's easier than creating another new country code/flag/shield as well! But I also like the idea that we have another medium-sized player country option, that of Berri, which can become France. Plus, we all now how disruptive the single-province minors are, and its something we want to avoid. Anyway, it would be annexed by 1430, right?
The Guyenne thing is more complex. Because the rulers of Guyenne are French aristocrats, not Occitan, at this point. And they have a 'rightful' claim, whatever happens to the Duchy in terms of religion. Plus, Poitou is French, rather than Occitan, so it won't be one of the protestant revolters. Likely the Duke will retreat to there should he lose control of Gascogne and Guyenne to the revolters. He would still be able to go on and claim France if he conquers the remainder of the French provinces.
And while all these good catholics fighting each other the pope has no say in all this
Well, that's the Reformation, right? The Pope losing his power over those who refuse to accept his authority.
What did you mean, anyway?
What did you mean, anyway?
I think Tarakan was referring to pre- reformation catholic infighting. It's funny that the pope really are quiet about all these french catholic princes fighting eachother while the moors of Iberia are closing in. It would not be too farfetched if the pope tried to arrenge peace in France, on the other hand the reaberrated Italy seems to be a hot one, and that would make the pope preoccupied.
yourworstnightm said:
Some of the most offending ones without a clear and hioonest claim would get excomunicated. That was a big deal in those times. He would likely do it just so there is peace once the ones with less f a right been done away with.
New thread needed on this one, or move some of this discussion to the Papal States. But I wholeheartedly support it. I have elsewhere suggested the Pope should intervene and foces a peace between Genoa and Sicily. Great ideas.
MattyG
MattyG
MattyG said:
I like it, though it should be very difficult even for Burgundy to become France. The trouble is, unless Brittany and Savoy are human-controlled, Burgundy is likely to be able to pick off its enemies one by one. Perhaps put a time limit on these country's ability to become France, so that players have to be quite reckless if they want the crown.
For the default Rhine-centric path of Burgundy, you mention German and Dutch culture. What about the gradual spread of Burgundian culture, as we discussed before?
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Incompetent said:
All these specific cultures nearly guarantee powerbase for one faction while limiting a possibility of powerplay by neighbours.
In general, yes, assuming I understand you correctly. The exception remains Dutch culture. OR, Dutch will be the most intense verion of this. While we have discussed the idea that a "Netherlands" could emerge late in the game, say 1760s and onward, the Dutch culture/the Dutch provinces needs to a focal point for conflict in the first 100 years, until the New World becomes the prize.
The way I see it there is a battle on for the ownership and loyalties of the Dutch provinces. Burgundy, Bavaria and Hansa are the main contenders, but others will also come into the picture with the right series of events and ownerships. And, of course, any nation can try and conquer them for their wealth.
I plan on writing events that will see the loyalty of the Dutch 'aristocracy' (read Guilds and powerful merchant families) switching based on the mercantilism/plutocracy/innovativeness/serfdom levels of the current owner(s). As rights and mercantile conditions move away from those desired by the Dutch, their loyalties may shift and a country can lose that culture group, if it had it to begin with.
Dutch 'nationalism' can emerge earlier as well. Not based so much on contemporary ideas of nationalism, more perhaps on the Hansa model of being independent to better suit their merchanct activities and keep their wealth local. It would emerge if the region sees a lot of warfare and if ownership of the provinces shifts a lot. Eventually the Dutch elites tire of this a consider banding together and making a bid for independence.
The way I see it there is a battle on for the ownership and loyalties of the Dutch provinces. Burgundy, Bavaria and Hansa are the main contenders, but others will also come into the picture with the right series of events and ownerships. And, of course, any nation can try and conquer them for their wealth.
I plan on writing events that will see the loyalty of the Dutch 'aristocracy' (read Guilds and powerful merchant families) switching based on the mercantilism/plutocracy/innovativeness/serfdom levels of the current owner(s). As rights and mercantile conditions move away from those desired by the Dutch, their loyalties may shift and a country can lose that culture group, if it had it to begin with.
Dutch 'nationalism' can emerge earlier as well. Not based so much on contemporary ideas of nationalism, more perhaps on the Hansa model of being independent to better suit their merchanct activities and keep their wealth local. It would emerge if the region sees a lot of warfare and if ownership of the provinces shifts a lot. Eventually the Dutch elites tire of this a consider banding together and making a bid for independence.