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The title

The title of the king of France has never been renewed according to the story of the Division of Gaul

It often happens that all of this territory is unified by a crafty player

It seems plausible that at that time when 70 to 90 % of the territory is unified and there is only one successor state left there should be an event proclaiming the king of france / gaul

Bavaria is a likely candidate for wanting to get the crown of germany

Burgundy is a very likely candidate for the revival of lotharingia (the guys at agceep did a nice number on this)

shoudl by some magic, and i do mean a lot of bad events should be scripted for this burgundy gets lotharingia and france crowns then the Empire of frankonia gets revived. this woudl have to get problematic with most anyone.

Napoleon just did not bother changing name
 
tarakan said:
The title of the king of France has never been renewed according to the story of the Division of Gaul

It often happens that all of this territory is unified by a crafty player

It seems plausible that at that time when 70 to 90 % of the territory is unified and there is only one successor state left there should be an event proclaiming the king of france / gaul
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Possibly, except it violates the principle of having none of the vanilla majors being majors in Abe; also a country which has taken over France is powerful enough by Abe standards, we don't want to make it even more powerful by giving it cores/culture over the lot. At present Cordoba can claim the throne, but it doesn't become France.

tarakan said:
Bavaria is a likely candidate for wanting to get the crown of germany
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Given that the Duke of Bavaria tends to be Holy Roman Emperor, he's probably King of Germany as well.

tarakan said:
Burgundy is a very likely candidate for the revival of lotharingia (the guys at agceep did a nice number on this)
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Yup. There's an event for this in Abe as well, but it doesn't do much. Arguably if Burgundy takes an Eastern orientation it does become a successor to Lotharingia - but is this worth a change of tag, with all the associated hassle?

tarakan said:
shoudl by some magic, and i do mean a lot of bad events should be scripted for this burgundy gets lotharingia and france crowns then the Empire of frankonia gets revived. this woudl have to get problematic with most anyone.

Napoleon just did not bother changing name
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Balance issues - players may well recover the empire of Charlemagne, but I don't think their cores and culture should ever stretch that far. Players can get there by their own efforts and face the usual consequences. It makes as much sense to 'revive' some of these centuries-dead empires as to allow Byzantium to restore the Western Roman Empire, gaining cores all the way to Hadrian's Wall.
 
The whole idea between the division of the Gaul is that Gaul should be divided, not unified (which is often seem to be). I think that for example occitan culture should be very hard to gain, and Brittany should start without french culture (but get it in the division of the gaul). Also, maybe Orleans and Paris should start as vassals of Burgundy to weaken it at the start, (if Bavaria is weakened, Burgundy should also be, for balance issues). Also I think Burgundy should have three main directions.
1.The HRE (some german and dutch cores, enable burgundian culture)
2.The French crown (french cores)
3.The lowlands (many dutch cores, can gain dutch culture)

Also a division of the lowlands between Hansa and Burgundy should be able to happen if Burgundy has chosen the dutch way, and Bavaria is very weak.
 
Lets all remember that just because we don't provide an event for something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

If, as Brittany, I conquer all of that part of the world known today as France, then I am the King of France even if the game doesn't have an event pop up to tell me so. I can feel good about it myself, and if I am playing MP I can write taunting messages to the others. Then, when I go on to conquer the Peninsula, I can declare myself the Sultan of Cordoba as well, for good measure.

So, Gaul can - and almost always will - be reunified by someone, and we ought not to pretend that it won't or shouldn't or can't happen through the course of the game. The questions revolves around whether or not the rest of Europe wishes to somehow accede to a claim to have revived a kingdom. And this means they accept our sovereignty over those lands.

I say we should have such an event, but that it cannot possibly trigger until at least 1700, and only if the claimant is one of those countries that begins in Gaul and only if it its the 'last man standing' amongst all those possible claimants.

And anyone in MP who allows a player to acheive this goal should concede the game and try playing something else instead.
 
MattyG said:
And anyone in MP who allows a player to acheive this goal should concede the game and try playing something else instead.
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That's the key line. In SP anything can happen, but in a large MP game, if someone gets that powerful there's a serious balance failure, either because the mod itself is unbalanced or because some of the players are not up to stratch. Savoy could perhaps be strengthened a bit in Occitania, but Brittany and Burgundy's core zones are quite sufficient in extent IMO.
 
Incompetent said:
That's the key line. In SP anything can happen, but in a large MP game, if someone gets that powerful there's a serious balance failure, either because the mod itself is unbalanced or because some of the players are not up to stratch. Savoy could perhaps be strengthened a bit in Occitania, but Brittany and Burgundy's core zones are quite sufficient in extent IMO.
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The other thing is that this 'prize' of reviving the ancient kingdom of Gaul must be late in the game.

Too often such events trigger in the 1500s. Take as an example the main prize for the Palaiologoi line of gaining Italian culture. In 1530. So, like, what do you do for the rest ofn the game? (I mean, apart from conquer all of Italy and then the world.)

If we are going to set storylines with goals, and we should, then the goals shouls be acheived in the last quarter of the game, not in the first quarter.

And Brittany's cores already enough? You meant already too many, right?
 
It is not the cores, it is the cultures that are to many for brittany.

I did not propose to add cores to say brittany after conqueing all of france for example.

Just a title reward.

As for changing stuff in the game.
yeah i guess truly why bother.

It was nice though in Crusader kings to be able to claim all those titles.
 
Maybe the title king of Gaul should be able to be claimed (in that case in the late 1700s) by any Gaul power, if it own enough provinces (will of course make all bugundy players to choose the french way, but that's ok). The title would not change tag or anything, just give cores and french culture (if the gaulish power still haven't got that by earlier event).

Brittany should start without french culture, with no french kingdom as liege Brittany is not a french duchy, but a gaelic kingdom. In the division of the gaul Brittany should get french culture though (becoming a real sucessor kingdom of France).

Burgundy could be weakened in start, just to make sure in won't unify France before at least the 1600s. (So disturbing when a strong Savoy is diploannexed in the early 1500s). Since Savoy, Burgundy and Brittany all are sucessors of the french crown, they all should be able to claim the crown of the Gaul in the 1700s if they're strong enough.

Savoy maybe should be able to meddle in Italy if they're unfriendly with Genoa. Something like the pope is scared of Genoese and Sicilian dominance and offer the italian crown to Savoy (however this should affect their chances of getting occitan culture, and Savoy must be catholic).
 
it woudl be nice to have an event that checks if any of the majors with a significant ammount of scripting done by the modders here is a vassal and would break the vasalization

i hardly ever vassalize majors even when i can. it breaks the game too much since these powers cant go and try to whoop a$$ by themselves and just sit these twiddlign their thumbs.

once in Victoria i as china, still a non civilized nation vassalized russia. the game went downhill from there as the challenge was gone
 
tarakan said:
It is not the cores, it is the cultures that are to many for brittany.

I did not propose to add cores to say brittany after conqueing all of france for example.

Just a title reward.

As for changing stuff in the game.
yeah i guess truly why bother.

It was nice though in Crusader kings to be able to claim all those titles.
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I like the role-playing aspect of it too.
 
yourworstnightm said:
Brittany should start without french culture, with no french kingdom as liege Brittany is not a french duchy, but a gaelic kingdom. In the division of the gaul Brittany should get french culture though (becoming a real sucessor kingdom of France).
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The current set up of Brittany is fine for the start but only if it for the player

Currently ai and the player play brittany very differently

(SP prefered strategy) In the division of gaul Brittany either focuses on Naval and looses french culture and still keeps Normandy as an ally and gets cores on the eastern coast since French culture is not truly nessesary for Brittany at all, just promotes later subjugation of france to brittany by the player. scotland and eire are such much easier targets than burgundy and savoy

(AI choice) Brttany chooses land approach and it probably should loose anglosaxon culture, which to ai brittany is pretty much worthlesss as scotland will surely push them off the island since the ai will not know in time for first war to get right of passage agreements with burgundy and hansa.

This probably puts the desgners here square in making Brittany another savoy or another burgundy. if all 3 continuously mesh for power then eithe bavaria or granada will pull them piece by piece apart untill there are 2 strong states left in place of original 3

Would it be not best to focus Brittany not on either / or approach in naval or france but maybe in getting back the lands of the "ibero-celtic" ancestors?

from say granada.

Celtic reconquista
 
Wouldn't that make more sense for the Savoyards, though? Savoy is already pressing into southern France in large part due to the Granadan threat and countries seeking its aid...I was considering that perhaps a country constantly under threat from the south (perceived or otherwise) would be a bit more radical, regardless of which direction they take, especially when it comes to religion in this era. Of course, event 200970 (Savoyard War of Religion Begins) disputes this, with the AI preference to Catholic Moderate, Protestantism, and Counter-reform Catholic in that order.

Looking at the entire Savoyard event file, it seems rather sparse, too, for a major, doesn't it? There's the Savoyard War of Religion, a couple of good kings and ministers, two French nobility rebellions, two military reformations, the Navarran and Languedoc annexations, and the uprising of Rocque Moliar (with no choice given to whether one should support the upstart minister or the crown, mind you). Of these, only the War of Religion is really a branched event chain, though the Rocque Moliar uprising did have the potential there.

EDIT: Say, then...who worked on the Savoyard events, and would they mind if I took a stab at working a bit on it? I'm not sure how much time I'd have, but I'm recovering from some oral surgery anyways, so, for the time being at least...
 
Zephyr 3 said:
EDIT: Say, then...who worked on the Savoyard events, and would they mind if I took a stab at working a bit on it? I'm not sure how much time I'd have, but I'm recovering from some oral surgery anyways, so, for the time being at least...
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We hijacked ArchDuke's mod a couple of months ago, so for the purposes of the new Abe, pretty much anything is up in the air, whoever wrote the original. Things basically get done by whoever wants to do them, as long as they don't provoke violent disagreement. For Savoy, the man to talk to at the moment is MattyG, who's working on France in general. I'm sure he'd be interested to hear what you have to say, even if it's difficult to understand thanks to the after-effects of anaesthetic... ;)
 
Zephyr 3 said:
Wouldn't that make more sense for the Savoyards, though? Savoy is already pressing into southern France in large part due to the Granadan threat and countries seeking its aid...I was considering that perhaps a country constantly under threat from the south (perceived or otherwise) would be a bit more radical, regardless of which direction they take, especially when it comes to religion in this era. Of course, event 200970 (Savoyard War of Religion Begins) disputes this, with the AI preference to Catholic Moderate, Protestantism, and Counter-reform Catholic in that order.

Looking at the entire Savoyard event file, it seems rather sparse, too, for a major, doesn't it? There's the Savoyard War of Religion, a couple of good kings and ministers, two French nobility rebellions, two military reformations, the Navarran and Languedoc annexations, and the uprising of Rocque Moliar (with no choice given to whether one should support the upstart minister or the crown, mind you). Of these, only the War of Religion is really a branched event chain, though the Rocque Moliar uprising did have the potential there.

EDIT: Say, then...who worked on the Savoyard events, and would they mind if I took a stab at working a bit on it? I'm not sure how much time I'd have, but I'm recovering from some oral surgery anyways, so, for the time being at least...
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Zephyr,

I am the lead for two of the subproject. The one I am working on at the moment is the New World. I am close to being able to post the next beta for it which will include of new material and revisions. After that, I can leave people to playtest it for a while and turn my attention to 'France'.

In general, we expect to be fully revamping the fils for much of Europe, including those which cover France. My purview will include Brittany, Burgundy and Savoy as majors (with the Kingdom of Occitania as a major revolter).

One of the things we are doing with Aberration is altering where and how the reformation strikes, and also changing some of the core and province cultures. Much of southern France will become Occitan, and when the reformation begins the old Cathar sympathies will reemerge and most of them will become protestant.

I would want assistance with this subproject and welcome your interest and offer to write up material. A note of caution, though. The Savoy file will be the most challenging one to compose. Not just because of the Occitan revolts and religious issues, but because the fate of Savoy is entangled so deeply with that of Genoa, Granada and Burgundy, all of whom have complex histories and event structures. Accordingly, you will need to make yourself very very familiar with those files. Of these, only Burgundy's will be changing radically.

Regards,

MattyG
 
Ah, thanks. I'll wait, then, to see the new Burgundian events. :)
 
The huegnots AI should be firly protestant and get a conversion event for all the territory they receive on the cheap to protestant. they are catholic now
 
Remember, all of the AIs will be re-written, more ais done for each country. But thatnks for the heads up, I'll remember when we get to that.

Thanks,

MattyG
 
OK, now that the New World has been completed to a point that it is more or less solid and more or less working ...

Time to bring my attention to "France".

First, here is my plan for the the cultural issues in Brittany. I'll deal with the other majors (Burgundy Savoy and Occitania, should it form) in the near future.

Brittany begins thegame with Gaelic and Anglo-saxon. In the coming four hundred years there can be much that changes for brittany, much that will change. As with the Normans in Britain, 300 years later and they are called the Anglo-saxons and they no longer speak a French dialect (except in court circles in order to chat up women ... )

I see Gaelic culture as going the same way. Sundered by distance, and with a focus on the affairs of the continent, the Gaelic culture of Brittany will likely alter too much to stil be called gaelic and will become instead Breton. This will depend on the choices Brittany makes.

Culture Triggers for Brittany would be:

a. Breton culture

This is not so much a gain as a change. If Brittany and Eire (or Scotland?, the event could trigger once for each) are at war it would trigger an event in which they would lose Gaelic culture and gain Breton nationally and in all home provinces. Deflaut ai option, of course, but players can take action_b to retain gaelic but only at the expesne of never getting French culture and a ot of stab hits etc etc.

b. Anglo-saxon culture

Lost if they lose the English provinces for 40 years or more. A change from present only in that there will be a time delay for the loss.

c. French culture

Gained by owning specific French-culture provinces. BUT, if they accept it it forces an automatic change to Breton culture, as above.

Here are the possible outcomes culturally for Brittany. Note that the only thing they cannot have is both French and Gaelic culture.

1. Retain Gaelic and Anglo Saxon

By maintaining a strong presence and interest in the 'british isles' Brittany stays closer to its heritage and its pattern of royal and noble marriages continue within other Gaelic and Anglo-saxon circles. Cannot gain French culture. (But can annex Eire and Scotland and still be very very powerful!)

2. Gain Breton and French culture, lose Gaelic/Anglo-saxon

The second major path sees them lose Gaelic culture for Breton and Anglo-saxon for French. This comes about from a focus on continental affairs, essential though a conquest of the French-culture provinces. There's more to it than that.

3. Gain Breton and retain Anglo-saxon

This is the worst option for them and will come about if they go to war with Eire and lose, and if they fail to take provinces to the south, but retian provinces in England.

4. Breton only.

War with Eire sees them lose Gaelic, and loss of the English provinces loses them Anglo-saxon. Failure in the continent means no French culture. A result of the weakest Brittany.

5. Breton, Aglo-saxon and French culture

One of the two better outcomes for Brittany. Retains the English provinces and conquers central France and choses to take on French culture in exchange for having Gaelic turn to Breton.

MattyG
 
MattyG said:
I see Gaelic culture as going the same way. Sundered by distance, and with a focus on the affairs of the continent, the Gaelic culture of Brittany will likely alter too much to stil be called gaelic and will become instead Breton. This will depend on the choices Brittany makes.
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Interesting idea, though I would give the big reservation that it's cruel to deprive a country of its primary culture, whatever the reason, because of the consequences for converted Pagans and colonies.

I had a similar idea for Scotland, except that they'd have Scottish culture right from 1419. The thing is, Lowland culture is more English than Gaelic by 1419, but it would be strange to make the Lowlands 'anglosaxon'. The Highlands would remain Gaelic. Scotland would start with Gaelic culture, but would risk losing it if they upset the Highlanders. They'd also be able to 'Scottify' the Highlands by suppressing the Highlanders a la Highland Clearances, but the loss of Gaelic would hurt if they tried to take bits of Ireland, for example.

If Gaelic is restricted to Ireland and the Highlands, Gaelic is fine as a name. But if Brittany, Wales and Cornwall are included, it's not suitable, as these people are not Gaels. In that sense it might be reasonable to have the Gaelic/Brythonic split from 1419 as well, given that they're reckoned to have been distinctive language groups from about 1000 BC. Otherwise, any unified culture covering all 15 provinces should really be called 'celtic'.


So to summarise, here's a possible split of 'gaelic':

Gaelic: All of Ireland, the Grampians and the Highlands. Primary culture of Ireland.
Brythonic: Bretagne, Armor, Morbihan, Wales, Cornwall. Primary culture of Brittany and Wales.
Scottish: Strathclyde, Lothian, Northumberland (may spread out from here to northern England or the Highlands, but probably not both). Primary culture of Scotland.

Either that or we have 'celtic' as the basic culture, and some combination of the others breaking off from that later.
 
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