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Rhodz sez:

and perhaps begin to flesh out an area you've not really concentrated on? The Jurchen, perhaps?
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Oh, absolutely. The Jurchen, Korea, Japan... I have no idea what to do with those. I sent MattyG an file of characters for new shields and flags, and I included Jin (金), thinking that the name-switch that happened IRL from Jin to Qing wouldn't happen.

Other than that, it's all you, chief.
 
Not much on the Jin, but I've been thinking about where I want the history to be different, and I suppose the civil war between Ariq Boke and Qubilai and the subsequent death of Qubilai is a good start. Were the Jurchen supporters of either side, do you know? I imagine the best way to do it would be that the Jurchen were unified by a powerful warlord during the Toluid Khanate's disintegration and forced the mongols out of Manchuria. This dynasty has lived on, and the "Jurchen Emperor" has his capital as far south as possible. The Jin's entire power base runs along the border with the mongols and Koryo. That's where the strong fortresses and armies loyal to the Jin Emperor are. However the further north you go, the less influence the emperor has over the tribes. This could be simulated by low pop provinces in the north with no fortresses and revolts every now and then, leading out to a few scattered colonies in the amur basin with hostile natives.

The first decision for the Jin is whether to reclaim the lands to the south, or to expand north into the Amur basin, as well as attempt to dominate Koryo and Nippon. Deciding to head "east" would result in a capital change, a series of events relating to exerting power over the northern provinces and tribes(by conquest and colonisation), as well as a series of events relating to the eventual dynastical unification with Koryo and conquest of Nippon(perhaps).

Deciding to head "south" engulfs the Jin in the struggle to unify China under the Jin. This results in events for the north and east attempting to defect to Koryo and Nippon, and those countries attempting to take the best advantage of that.

Any ideas?
 
Were the Jurchen supporters of either side, do you know?
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Well, since the territories of the Jin Dynasty were under the control of Qubilai, the Jurchid were probably more in favor of him inasmuchas they favored either party. It's not really very clear, though. Both Ariq Boke and Qubilai were Toluids (descendants of Tolui, Genghis Khan's fourth son)-they were siblings, in fact- whose ulus (region, apanage) were the "home" territories of the Mongols, because under Mongol custom, the youngest son inherits the father's personal possessions. Ariq Boke's powerbase was principally in Mongolia (Outer and Inner), and he was supported by the Chagataids. Qubilai's powerbase was in China, though he was supported by Hulagu, also the brother of Qubilai and Ariq Boke. The last Mongol faction, the Jochiids, did not want to get involved seeing as they didn't get along with either candidate and had already started to pull away before the civil war--they eventually became the Golden Horde.

So, would the Jurchen pick a side? I don't know; they were beaten very, very badly by Genghis Khan, and most likely, IRL, would not get involved in the conflict. In Interregnum, Qubilai dies in a manner similar to Harold of Wessex rather early in the conflict, in a small battle that took place in southeastern Mongolia, very near Jurchen territory. Perhaps they could be capitalizing on that coincidence in particular somehow?

Deciding to head "south" engulfs the Jin in the struggle to unify China under the Jin. This results in events for the north and east attempting to defect to Koryo and Nippon, and those countries attempting to take the best advantage of that.
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I'm thinking that Ming is going to spending a good deal of time and energy in the early game fighting with the Toluids to the north. If the Jurchen were to embark on the Great Enterprise themselves, they would be helped against the Mongols, but soon find themselves abutting Ming. That could lead to a lot of things, I imagine, but this makes it look a lot like the Toluids are just going to get utterly pounded (which is okay, we should just be clear about it).

I also think that Korea/Koryo/Goryeo should get some serious opportunities. It is, I think, sort of the ideal Interregnum power, like Bavaria and Brittany in Interregnum Europe. Often overlooked, in a strong position, peripheral to major powers that have collapsed in this alternate history. And, of course, incredibly interesting on its own, though I have to admit I know very little about Korea's specific history, except about its interactions with its neighbors (China, Japan, the Mongols).
 
Any ideas?
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Well, historically, the Qing dynasty was very oppressive, and I've heard experts on the subject refer to them as "puritanical" in that they suppressed both native Chinese beliefs and practices (like acupuncture, which was almost wiped out) and technological development. The roots of this can be seen in the Jin Dynasty even, which was "rotten to core" from corruption and inefficiency when Genghis Khan invaded. Partly this is just the nature of the Jurchen/Manchu of the time, since they were steppe people (like the Mongols) and relied on military speed and strength rather than financing, resources, and trade.

Less than an idea, but a question. Are the Jurchen still going to reflect this mindset, or cast it off? If the latter, how?

Really, this is the one country that I had not come up with any ideas for yet, so I'm a bit dry there.

Are the Jurchen likely to become the Jin and try and dominate China, or is this the less likely option? Perhaps they start out rather under the sway of the Goryeo Kingdom, who possibly aided in their independence by also capitalizing on the confusion in Mongolian China following the death of Qubilai and invading?

In terms of feasibility, expanding into the Amur basin is somewhat difficult to envision. It's very rough country, even today, but there are certainly some big payoffs to be had. The Jurchen were not, historically, a maritime people at all; are they going to start building ships maybe? That would certainly make the idea of settlers heading off to Kamchatka easier to envision, at least, as naval transport is more reliable along the coast there than trekking around in the taiga of eastern Siberia.
 
Good ideas. Information on the Jurchen is very sparse, unfortunately. Perhaps what we could do is have The Jurchen support Qubilai against Ariq Boke, and when Qubilai is defeated, they freak out and turn to Koryo. Koryo takes over the most southern areas, but the northern tribes are more difficult to tame. Eventually during a low point in this greater Koryo's history, a strong leader unifies the northern tribes and conquers parts of Manchuria, creating a new Jin Empire. The populous and rich southern provinces prefer to be part of Koryo, but the northern ones support Jurchen independence and a Jin Empire.

Perhaps I've been looking at this wrong. Koryo could be the biggest player here, with two general choices: Head east and subdue Nippon, or reclaim the lands of Jin, leading to a unification of the Jurchen and Korean people? Perhaps?

As for the Toluids being smashed up, yes, I think that should happen. The power of the mongols is gone, and they are a christian power over a konfucian people.

As for colonising the Amur basin, if Russia IRL could colonise Siberia in the 1600's, why not a resurgent Jin Empire or Koryo-Jin Empire?
 
I just looked it up and found out that IRL, Goryeo collapsed in 1392 and was replaced by the Joseon/Choson Kingdom. Are we going to preserve Goryeo instead?
 
siafu said:
I just looked it up and found out that IRL, Goryeo collapsed in 1392 and was replaced by the Joseon/Choson Kingdom. Are we going to preserve Goryeo instead?
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Depends on how things go, one would think, and "which" Goryeo we're talking about - the Mongol invasions really dinked things up in Korea for some time, considering the entire court ended up fleeing to Jeju and several well-defended fortificative works across the nation to fight the good fight as long as they could. Ultimately, of course, they lost in a rather interesting mess, including court intrigues, betraying the peasantry doing the fighting, and the defection of the dynasty...yeah, it's obvious I don't have my reference works with me. Um...I wrote up some stuff quite some time ago about Korea, but no one ever replied to it so it sort of got buried and forgotten. I'll dig it up.

EDIT: My, I'm rather surprised. When I said "quite some time ago," I didn't expect it to be almost two years. At any rate, there's dsk's thread here and one of my own here. I do hope that this gives some ideas, even if it came before most of the work in the East was done.
 
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MattyG; would you oh so terribly mind changing the religion in Lanzhou (1558) and Sichuan Pendi (1557) to Sunni, and the state religion in Nanzhao to Sunni?
 
Right now (Final Beta) Ming and Korea are the same color in the political map. Since the Mongols are likely to lose a lot of their Eastern territory, Korea and Ming are likely to butt up against each other. Similarly, Song and Champa are the same, and since they're going to be divvying up Dai Viet between them in one of several ways, they should probably be different.

Ming can use the flags and shields for "China" from vanilla; they all have the same Ming (明) character on them already anyway.

I've been reading a bit more about the Hui minority that Ahmed was talking about in the Champa thread; the population in the Cantonese areas is primarily descended from Muslim traders who intermarried with the local Chinese, whereas the Hui in the northwest are more closely related to the Mongols and the Uighurs. The latter would never have been created in Interregnum, the former could be exactly the same.

However, in Interregnum, we have a divided China, and in particular a small state in the west that relatively recently overran Chengdu, capital of Sichuan (marked "Sichuan Pendi" on the vanilla map for reasons unknown). This nation, Nanzhao, was ruled by Bai people (I'm being a little bit free with the names here; to most historians, Nanzhao was replaced by Dali, but both were Bai kingdoms and shared a political continuity), who also reside in Guizhou and Hunan, as well as Yunnan. So at the start of the game, Nanzhao should be Yunnan (1553), Sichuan Pendi (1557), and Lanzhou (1558). The culture in 1553, 1545 (Kachin), and 1556 (Guizhou), should be Bai.

Since conquering Sichuan, the Bai have become somewhat sinicized. China has always been the "big fish" in east asia, and most of its neighbors (Vietnam, Japan, Mongolia, Korea) were defined around it over time. With a divided China, though, the Bai keep their identity but develop a taste for the power wielded by the the Emperors of China. At the same time, they're Muslim. So, in the early game, say ~1460-1470, while Song is battling over Theravadan vs. Mahaya/Confucian identity, Nanzhao can choose to start modelling itself as a sort of Mulsim Chinese dynasty. When the Cham missionaries convert Guizhou, Nanzhao might see the opportunity and invade; capturing enough provinces in the ensuing peace (e.g. 2? 3?) would give them the option to declare themselves the Hui (回) dynasty (the treatment of Hui people as a separate ethnic group rather than just a religious group didn't happen until the PROC, so any Muslim Chinese was called "Hui" at the time) and give them some cores in Song and Ming China, like Shaanxi (1563) and Hunan (1566). Sucessful conquest of a significant chunk of Cantonese and Han provinces would probably also create an environment to a cultural shift as Bai, Han, and Cantonese mix to make a new in-game "Hui".

This is just a general outline. The alternative to pursuing Chinese domination is to aim north and west at Tibet and the Chagataids, which I think would lead ultimately to a larger and richer, but rather backwards and undeveloped state that would decline in the late 16th and early 17th centuries, as these regions don't lend themselves to well-developed and modern states.
 
siafu said:
When the Cham missionaries convert Guizhou, Nanzhao might see the opportunity and invade; capturing enough provinces in the ensuing peace
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You talking about islam here? It might be a bit niggling but Islam didn't spread through missionaries (particularly in east asia and indonesia) but more through the actions of wandering traders and the occasional mystic, How exactly is Islam planned to spread in southern china?
 
siafu said:
MattyG; would you oh so terribly mind changing the religion in Lanzhou (1558) and Sichuan Pendi (1557) to Sunni, and the state religion in Nanzhao to Sunni?
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Done.
 
To chip in again I agree with Don_Quigleone. Islam has always spread by unconventional means. Especially in Asia, were it was primarily spread via traders, travelers, and their families. Not to mention the occasional Sufi, but they never caught on in Asia.


EDIT: spelling
 
Don_Quigleone said:
Could only happen if Islam is doing EXTREMELY well in china, or if the srivijiya sultanate is doing extremely well, besides that I'd count it as quite unlikely
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Well, given how fast Christianity spread in Japan in real history... Also, there may not be a strong Japanese state to enforce traditional values and prevent the spread of foreign religions.
 
Excuse me I really don't have a lot of time, but seeing how the dicussion was going I am just going to chip in.

Japan has never needed a strong state to enforce traditional values, the Japanese themselves have always done so individually. Japanese culture would never abide Islam, the Japanese mindset would never abide Islam. I am sorry but it is just not plausible, not in any shape or form. Not ever.
 
Yeah I have to lean towards shogun on this one, however I think he's vastly overestimating how traditional the japanese were, many did accept christianity (and gave it up just as easily, showing people to be in the end quite pragmatic in such matters). In fact the japanese, if you leave aside sakoku, have been quite open to foreign influences, look at how influential chinese culture was, and the general conservatism of the japanese is more a result of the sengoku jidai and the resulting policy of sakoku, it is perfectly possible in our alternate history, for the japanese to become innovators who are open to new ideas (much like they were during the meiji restoration). That said the possibility of islam getting into japan is quite low, unless one of four things happen

1. An organisation actively proselytizes (as per the jesuits), this is almost impossible under islamic doctrine which generally forbids missionary work

2. Extensive trade between muslims and japan, slight possibility but the distance is far too large between middle east and japan, only if islam took root in china, or the srivijiya sultanate became powerful and traded in the area could this in any way occur, and even then the process could only begin in 1600 at the least and the process itself would be quite lengthy, and Islam itself would only take hold in trading coastal cities like nagasaki and around kyushu

3. If the ruler of the country suddenly converted to islam, it's happened but what with how japan was structured (highly feudal) it wouldn't be in any way feasible, more likely that nobles overthrow him (not for idealogical reasons but practical ones)

4. If a muslim state conquers japan and imposes it's own faith, but this would be largely modelled through the already present missionary system.

On the flip side what is possible is for islam (or any religion) to merge into japanese tradition much like buddhism and elements of daoism, however due to the nature of abrahamic faiths it's quite unlikely (though some modern day japanese do it with christianity), however this is more likely to occur with another dharmic faith like hinduism moreso than islam.
 
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