Asia

[siafu]

Well, the vector for Islam in China now is actually the revolt of Lau Keung and support from Nanzhao, so no more missionaries (though that was still Ahmed's idea and not mine).

Right now I think it's a good idea to slow down a bit on Song and do some work on the other two Chinas, starting with Wei.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

What's happening with christianity in china? One thing that could be done is a movement similiar to the taiping rebellion in the 1800s, thoush I'm not sure how you'd do it

 

[siafu]

I think that since the Mongol overlords in the north converted to Christianity, it would be unlikely to catch on very well amongst the populace.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Still radical sects played a large enough part in china's history (white lotus rebellion) It would be a shame not to bring at least one in

 

[siafu]

Still radical sects played a large enough part in china's history (white lotus rebellion) It would be a shame not to bring at least one in

The White Lotus Rebellion was a Buddhist rebellion centered around taxation against the Manchu Qing dynasty. What is the connection to Christianity there?

 

[Don_Quigleone]

There's no connection, but it's similiar to the taiping rebellion in that it was a radical sect leading a large rebellion, I was thinking that these rebellions should play a part in any history we do, since christianity is already present in china it might be feasible for chinese christian sect arising and causing trouble, Either that or a sect similiar to the white lotus

 

[MattyG]

I am happy that we move ahead with some of the other parts of Asia. But we need to tie up the loose Song threads here (oops, almost wrote "the loose thong").

What, specifically, do you want for the assissination of Fu and the subsequent choices?

Did you want any chance that Lau Keung's line could continue?

What of the Shogun style government, what character ought it to take?

 

[siafu]

There's no connection, but it's similiar to the taiping rebellion in that it was a radical sect leading a large rebellion, I was thinking that these rebellions should play a part in any history we do, since christianity is already present in china it might be feasible for chinese christian sect arising and causing trouble, Either that or a sect similiar to the white lotus

Ah. Well I absolutely agree that radical sects and secret societies, both prominent in the history of China, should be included and worked with.

What of the Shogun style government, what character ought it to take?

It should be militaristic and focussed on conquering the rest of China. Narrowminded, Land, Aristocracy, and Mercantilist. It would still call itself Song, naturally, and make use of the Emperor as a mouthpiece for authority. I think it would be likely in such a situation in China that the "Shogun" character, would probably eventually declare himself Emperor and start a new dynasty, but frankly we're getting to have too many options here.

The only precedent I can think of is Dong Zhuo who basically took control of the Emperor Xian (Han Xiandi) from AD 189 to 192 at the end of the Han dynasty. In that case, the other powerful warlords and nobles were too strong for him to control. The important point of it, though, is that all of these other warlords (namely Cao Pi-- grandson of Cao Cao, Liu Bei, and Sun Quan) claimed to be founders of new dynasties and therefore emperors themselves.

Basically, this just means that the "Shogun" model is something that is a bit new. Lau Keung would need the support of either the palace eunuchs or the Confucian officials, each of whom at one point or another in history controlled the court. For Song, it makes more sense for it to be the eunuchs, as Song is in general not as closely tied to Confucianism given our Aberrated introduction of Theravadan Buddhism and Islam. He also would depend on the other warlords, naturally, to make sure a militarist government would be at all possible. So, in short, not very centralized.

Very aggressive, though, as victory and war would be the only things keeping the government's momentum. Unlike the Japanese model, simple respect for the "Tenno" wouldn't be enough; in China, peasant revolts DID see the overthrow of emperors.

Ideally, I would love for there to be a branching choice for the "shogunate" government... but we'll leave that be for me.

Also, the position held by Lau Keung and his descendants would be called either Dajiang (大將) or Dajun (大君). The first one means literally "Supreme General" or "Top General" or somesuch-basically commander in chief- and the second means "Supreme ruler". You pick.

 

[siafu]

What, specifically, do you want for the assissination of Fu and the subsequent choices?

I'm assuming you mean the assassination of Fu Zong. Looking over the "Son of Heaven is Dead!" event from the Song Dynasty thread, I think the broad strokes are spelled out. Naturally, failing in the ensuing civil war results in the option that wasn't picked winning out-- i.e., chosing to support Zhao Fan and losing the war means that Zhao Hui comes to power and preserves the Theravadan reforms.

 

[siafu]

Did you want any chance that Lau Keung's line could continue?

Not unless someone makes a Hui shield (joke!).

If he declares independence, it could continue. He converts to Islam and either rules independently (and violently, invading the rest of China whenever possible) or becomes vassalized and then annexed by Nanzhao who take up the Great Enterprise themselves. Since his dynasty won't be playable, we don't need to be too detailed (right?).

I (or anyone else!) would have to come up with some good Cantonese or Mandarin renditions of Muslim names or find a good database of Hui names for Monarchs and such to detail him out if necessary. I don't know where such a database would be; perhaps Ahmed does?

 

[siafu]

But we need to tie up the loose Song threads here

Yeah, I agree, but as I mentioned before I want to slow down on Song and catch up with the others. With the three Chinas especially there should be a lot of intertwining of development, and there's little to nothing done on Wei or Ming so far.

In case there was any scare, I do intend to write more events myself, I've just been busy in the last two weeks with my SO moving out and the summer session getting going.

 

[siafu]

Regarding Wei...

Historically, the Song dynasty is known for its technological know-how, scientific advancement, and cultural development (e.g. ci poetry); most of this was government-sponsored through the Imperial examinations and imperial salaries. In Interregnum, Song has lived much longer than it did historically and lost most of its dynamism-- the restoration of this dynamism is what Wei represents (Technically this should be "Hou4 Wei4", meaning "Later Wei", but they'd just go by Wei contemporaneously). So, at some point, +1480, Wei undergoes a technological revolution akin to the European rennaissance and changes from "Chinese" tech group to Latin or Orthodox, depending on how it balances with playtesting. This revolution spreads to Ming, Song, and possibly Korea and Japan (Rhodz, Shogun, sound reasonable?) over the next 50 years. Ming also gets an explorer around this time and fires off for California.

So, Wei starts out in a weak position with fewer provinces than the other Chinas. Anyone who has been playtesting Song will know how easy it is to overrun Wei and everything but Shanghai and Taiwan. I think the only good way to offset this, even with Song's internal problems, is through strong foreign relations, particularly with Ming and Korea or Japan, and should be part of a larger military alliance, preferably with Korea as being allied with Ming will be dangerous (Ming is going to be very militaristic and probably fight several wars with the Mongols in the first 50 years).

Wei is also much more bureacratic, and relies on the imperial examinations and Confucian officials much more than the other Chinese states. Given that Ming broke free precisely because of the weakness of Song and its inability to restore China, returning to the more traditional system in the image of the Tang and Han dynasties would be expected. This makes them innovative, plutocratic, and only moderately centralized.

So, Wei gets a small headstart on tech, and a reasonable headstart on colonization, but ends up somewhat overextended in the mid 1500s and has to choose a political course there, and likely fight tooth and nail for survival. One of these options would be to grant more power to the Confucian offficials, eventually resulting in a powerful prime minister (zong3li3, 總理) and bureaucracy, elected by and from the guan (官, "Mandarins", "Scholar-literati", or "Scholar-bureacrats"). For the other options, I don't know yet.

 

[MattyG]

Regarding Wei...

Historically, the Song dynasty is known for its technological know-how, scientific advancement, and cultural development (e.g. ci poetry); most of this was government-sponsored through the Imperial examinations and imperial salaries. In Interregnum, Song has lived much longer than it did historically and lost most of its dynamism-- the restoration of this dynamism is what Wei represents (Technically this should be "Hou4 Wei4", meaning "Later Wei", but they'd just go by Wei contemporaneously). So, at some point, +1480, Wei undergoes a technological revolution akin to the European rennaissance and changes from "Chinese" tech group to Latin or Orthodox, depending on how it balances with playtesting.

Currently, all of the Chinas are orthodox tech and the rest of Asia is muslim tech.

This revolution spreads to Ming, Song, and possibly Korea and Japan (Rhodz, Shogun, sound reasonable?) over the next 50 years. Ming also gets an explorer around this time and fires off for California.

One of the nterregnum mainstays is that it needs to have 'balance' for the MP arena. Accordingly, all of the colonisers will need to begin at about the same point, or else it becomes too huge of an advanctage for the one which starts earlier. With Eire this was carefully balanced by the fact that it is poorer and an island and because its early explorers only permit it to just reach Greenland, then the Maritime provinces, leaving the richer Caribbean and east Coast for the All In period of 1510 to 1525.

So, Wei starts out in a weak position with fewer provinces than the other Chinas. Anyone who has been playtesting Song will know how easy it is to overrun Wei and everything but Shanghai and Taiwan. I think the only good way to offset this, even with Song's internal problems, is through strong foreign relations, particularly with Ming and Korea or Japan, and should be part of a larger military alliance, preferably with Korea as being allied with Ming will be dangerous (Ming is going to be very militaristic and probably fight several wars with the Mongols in the first 50 years).

But, this is because it is single player. Solo play will always be easy to crush your opponents. Because for a while there Asia was going to remain ai only, they all started out of alliances to ensure the outcomes would have as much variability as possible. So, we need to start arranging these alliances beforehand, with Wei allied to Ming. This means that a: Ming and Wei won't annihilate one another and that b: Song can't crush either of the other two so easily. Song could perhaps begin allied with Korea, or maybe even Champa.

Wei is also much more bureacratic, and relies on the imperial examinations and Confucian officials much more than the other Chinese states. Given that Ming broke free precisely because of the weakness of Song and its inability to restore China, returning to the more traditional system in the image of the Tang and Han dynasties would be expected. This makes them innovative, plutocratic, and only moderately centralized.

So, Wei gets a small headstart on tech, and a reasonable headstart on colonization, but ends up somewhat overextended in the mid 1500s and has to choose a political course there, and likely fight tooth and nail for survival. One of these options would be to grant more power to the Confucian offficials, eventually resulting in a powerful prime minister (zong3li3, 總理) and bureaucracy, elected by and from the guan (官, "Mandarins", "Scholar-literati", or "Scholar-bureacrats"). For the other options, I don't know yet.

Very cool.

 

[siafu]

Currently, all of the Chinas are orthodox tech and the rest of Asia is muslim tech.

Okay, so it could switch from Muslim, then. Or is it important that it be this way and we need to work this into the pre-game history?

One of the nterregnum mainstays is that it needs to have 'balance' for the MP arena. Accordingly, all of the colonisers will need to begin at about the same point, or else it becomes too huge of an advanctage for the one which starts earlier. With Eire this was carefully balanced by the fact that it is poorer and an island and because its early explorers only permit it to just reach Greenland, then the Maritime provinces, leaving the richer Caribbean and east Coast for the All In period of 1510 to 1525.

I still believe that Wei should go first. We can either explore having it be acceptably balanced to be more like the situation with Eire, or move to be later, but still 15-20 years in advance of the rest of China, and put, say, Korea some to go second only 10 years later? Either one sounds sensible, but Wei should get some headstart here.

But, this is because it is single player. Solo play will always be easy to crush your opponents. Because for a while there Asia was going to remain ai only, they all started out of alliances to ensure the outcomes would have as much variability as possible. So, we need to start arranging these alliances beforehand, with Wei allied to Ming. This means that a: Ming and Wei won't annihilate one another and that b: Song can't crush either of the other two so easily. Song could perhaps begin allied with Korea, or maybe even Champa.

Okay, perhaps this was a bad example, but what I'm envisioning for Wei is that because it's unable to get anywhere militarily, it has to turn to other avenues for power. This is in contrast to Ming and Song who are both already larger and have weak neighbors to prey on. We could also weaken Wei even a bit more, and give either Nanchang (1567) or Fujian (656) to Song at start.

As for another ally for Song, the Buddhist nations (Tibet, Lan Xang, Vietnam, &c.) nearby make more sense; Champa is a major adversary.

I haven't really played MP (is anyone organizing games around here?), so I don't necessarily think of MP balance initially.

 

[MattyG]

On the tech issue, I didn't mean to come across as though this was set in stone. At the moment it is all set up for ai-only, which means that there were no real events planned and Asia was just being toughened up and given explorers. art of that was making the Chinas orthodox tech. We started them on Latin but it was too much and toned it down one step.

So, they can start off as Muslim tech, as they do in vanilla (its funny, China isn't China tech ... )

I am happy that all of asia (except, maybe, the Mongol states) start on muslim, and some go up to orthodox (Wei can be the one that can even make it to latin tech) whilst other can even go down to China.

The only problem I have found with modelling different paths to victory is that - at least in the first 100 years - it all comes down to conquest: you of them or them of you. If the tech advantage storyline isn't to be abused (ie being ahead from the start and never looking back) then the country has to survive the first century before enlightened ideas can kick in to give it the advantage. And this means surviving wars, especially in an MP environment, but even in solo play. A player against ai can do it fine, even expand, but you can expect that a five-province Wei who is militarily weaker will be a one-province vassal by the time it starts exploring and increasing in tech. Only to be annexed.

There isn't a lot we can do about this. Europe works because - in the standard scheme of things - they are to a degree all the same: latin tech, starting on level one in everything. They duke it out, some rise, some fall, and it all seems pretty fair, except that some have leaders and some don't.

Not really sure where all this is heading, except that I think Wei's survival will be predicated on diplomacy. If they are militarily weaker, then they will need to have friends: in fact, they want everyone to be their friends. So, we give their monarchs good DIP ratings, but very low MIL ratings, and start them in a web of positive alliances.

 

[MattyG]

I'm assuming you mean the assassination of Fu Zong. Looking over the "Son of Heaven is Dead!" event from the Song Dynasty thread, I think the broad strokes are spelled out. Naturally, failing in the ensuing civil war results in the option that wasn't picked winning out-- i.e., chosing to support Zhao Fan and losing the war means that Zhao Hui comes to power and preserves the Theravadan reforms.

Oops, must have missed that event. Sorry ... o

 

[Don_Quigleone]

I think what techgroup the chinese states are part of should depend on how they act, if a large unifed chinese state comes about they should possibly move down a techgroup, depending on some sort of event scheme, otherwise countries like korea that try and colonise or even go merchantalistic should possibly get a boost in the latter game

From a historical point of view the chinese should start ahead of others but be falling behind by the 1500s, so it might be a good idea for them to start with higher tech (maybe land 4?) but be in a lower techgroup then surrounding countries, of course this isn't all historical so...

 

[siafu]

From a historical point of view the chinese should start ahead of others but be falling behind by the 1500s, so it might be a good idea for them to start with higher tech (maybe land 4?) but be in a lower techgroup then surrounding countries, of course this isn't all historical so...

Well, from a historical point of view, the dynasty most responsible for China's technological stagnation, the Qing, won't exist, so we don't need to follow the historical track.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

The Ming were also partially responsible due to their isolationist policies, Also relative to the rest of the world china started going downhill technologically around this period

 

[siafu]

The Ming were also partially responsible due to their isolationist policies

The problems with the latter half of the Ming dynasty also had a lot to do with the rampant corruption in the government and complete apathy of the Emperors to affairs of state. Even during the Manchu invasion, the Ming were technologically superior to their foes, using gunpowder cannons and rockets, but simply unable to put up an organized defense. The Ming dynasty also focused on the peasants to the detriment of the merchants, which while preserving their traditional powerbase, quashed foreign trade.

So yeah, both, but neither is going to be its historical self; I don't think this model really makes a lot of sense with the way we're going. If Ming conquers all of China, though, then maybe a drop in tech group would be appropriate-- but Ming is going to be rather different since Zhu Di doesn't revolt and there is no Yongle Emperor.