• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
For rural districts this is yet another broken system trivially solved by gutting the static +job resource buildings from the game and including more buildings that do actually interesting things.
"Trivially solved" is a funny way to describe "design 3x as much content" (which is what "including more buildings that do actually interesting things" means in this case).
Here's an idea:

Keep these buildings. Keep them spammable. But instead of adding a flat +200/400/600 jobs, they add +X jobs per district they are attached to. Maybe the base ones can do 20, so it balances out to the same when you build 10 districts.

  • Weird "build at least one district for the building slots" incentive? Gone.
  • Still works as filler, that you might (or might not) want to replace later.
  • Even when you have tons of the district built, gives an actual choice: Do you have the pops to simply work more jobs? Or would an efficiency increase be better?
  • Works much better conceptually with the new district-centric job system.
  • Actually let's you tune the outputs of districts a bit.
  • Probably fairly easy to implement.
 
Last edited:
  • 7
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Here's an idea:

Keep these buildings. Keep them spammable. But instead of adding a flat +200/400/600 jobs, they add +X jobs per district they are attached to. Maybe the base ones can do 20, so it balances out to the same when you build 10 districts.

  • Weird "build at least one district for the building slots" incentive? Gone.
  • Still works as filler, that you might (or might not) want to replace later.
  • Even when you have tons of the district built, gives an actual choice: Do you have the pops to simply work more jobs? Or would an efficiency increase be better?
  • Works much better conceptually with the new district-centric job system.
  • Actually let's you tine the outputs of districts a bit.
  • Probably fairly easy to implement.
Agreed, this fits much better with the new system.

It would just need to scale in upkeep with the district (like automation does).
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
"Trivially solved" is a funny way to describe "design 3x as much content" (which is what "including more buildings that do actually interesting things" means in this case).
It's really not. For rural districts, currently in the game are buildings that:
Add +XX% output
Add +X output
Increase the amount of a particular rural district that can be built
Exploit strategic resource deposits (one building per district type)
Automates

Not in the game for Rural districts but absolutely could be:
Add +XX% pop efficiency
A building that adds ~50 jobs per district

There's seven for you. They're not that interesting individually but that's the low bar I'm talking about for them to be interesting in combination. If I have N building slots and N+ types of buildings I can build then working out what the best buildings to build in any scenario becomes a puzzle. If I have less than N building types then it's just makework.

"But Critical Ethics, five of those are in the game! So therefore you have what you want!"
Nope. The second one is only available as being applied to an upgrade of the first one, the third is highly situational (and usually strictly worse than just throwing down a +200 building), the fourth is locked behind planetary features, and every single one of them is locked behind a tech. When you first unlock a specialisation your only use for building slots are as near one-for-one trades to help avoid having to build more districts, which is the exact opposite of the entire concept!

If you started the game with three very basic, district-unique buildings (+XX% output, +XX% pop efficiency, and one that does +XX%/2 of both) then building the automation building comes with an inherent tradeoff - you're losing about 20% output (lower due to stacking but you get the idea). The first 15% of the automation is a neutral gain in terms of per-pop efficiency, so you only need to cost off the remainder. Or, better yet, start with two buildings and only two unlocked slots with the third slot being unlocked by any tech from that district's tech tree that also grants a building.

I should also emphasise that I have no objection to buildings that add more jobs, my objection is spammable buildings that do nothing but add a large, fixed number of jobs. So balancing disparate buildings by sticking ~50 jobs onto the weaker ones is not an issue - especially given that they all should still be planet unique.
The automation buildings cost what they cost before buildings were excluded.

As I understand it, the building costs will be back when they have time to fix the bug that made it count all buildings on the planet, instead of only the ones in the district.
That wasn't a bug. I reported it as a bug and they replied saying that they were doing it on purpose but would stop because everyone was completely insane not getting good feedback. Then they removed the building costs entirely and increased the per-district costs. Maybe they would have liked to include buildings in the rework and couldn't but there would be no need for them to do so if there weren't a +200 jobs building!
I think they're mostly fine. Consider that building a specialization costs as much as 3.3 rural districts: it's more empire size efficient, but without jobs from building slots, it would cost more than it gives you except on fairly large planets.
1) this is only the case if you're looking at the +200 building jobs as the standard rather than the horrible wart on the entire concept that they are. If the standard item you could put into specialisation slots were efficiency and output increasers then even on small planets you'd see returns from the increased pop and land efficiency.
2) if it weren't for the +200 job building they wouldn't need to make rural specialisations cost that much in the first place. This is what I'm trying to get at, they warp the entire game.
They're just filler
That's the core issue, yes. They're filler buildings that mainly exist to fill slots when you don't have anything better to do with them, but their incredible suck field makes it infinitely harder to add better things to do with the slots. It's ouroboros of bad game components.
And for e.g. research... Research labs were fine before, and they're fine now. [snip] and a way to let tall build even taller.
1) They worked fine in the old economy because it was a different economy.
2) A planet unique science building that added additional jobs per district would serve the same purpose without destroying the rest of the game and would work with rather than against the selling points of the new economy.
3) As would districts, buildings, and civics that boost civilian output.
4) Even if we ignore all that and look at if they work less poorly and how we can build on that, any dissimilarities are because they spit out empire level resources. There's no perverse incentives to meet the "minimum science requirement" of a planet by using the lowest possible number of districts like there is with rural districts, so few arguments that work for science labs really apply to base resource districts - and those arguments are best served by options 1 to 3 anyway.

e: The actual big exception is amenities.
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Agreed, this fits much better with the new system.

It would just need to scale in upkeep with the district (like automation does).
No they don't thanks to the combined glories of opportunity cost and having everything apply per district. If you build a +50 jobs per district building then you're not building a +20% output per district building (or whatever). The per-district cost is what you're not building. You only need a per-district upkeep if a building provides more benefit per district than a simple +50 (+25 for urban) jobs or +20% output increaser, which a significant workforce reduction absolutely would do.
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Here's an idea:

Keep these buildings. Keep them spammable. But instead of adding a flat +200/400/600 jobs, they add +X jobs per district they are attached to. Maybe the base ones can do 20, so it balances out to the same when you build 10 districts.

  • Weird "build at least one district for the building slots" incentive? Gone.
  • Still works as filler, that you might (or might not) want to replace later.
  • Even when you have tons of the district built, gives an actual choice: Do you have the pops to simply work more jobs? Or would an efficiency increase be better?
  • Works much better conceptually with the new district-centric job system.
  • Actually let's you tine the outputs of districts a bit.
  • Probably fairly easy to implement.
They can only stay spammable if they're zone locked. If you can build them in city zones they need to be planet unique. Spammable + city slots = a massive, massive incentive toward specialised planets due to elimination of the opportunity cost.

e: this board needs an "I agree with you about 75%" reaction
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
Reactions:
How come nobody has mentioned that you can reduce the upkeep of the automation building?

upkeep.JPG


- three councilors with Architectural Sense III (the wiki says -5% upkeep reduction, but is seems to give -10% instead)
- the governor has the common Architecutal Interest trait for -20% and the Urbanist destiny trait for another -50%

I'm sure there are other building upkeep reduction modifiers, like -20% from the virtual synthetic dictatorship authority, but that's already -100% and it seems to be capped?

here's the technician output in particular:

technician_output.JPG


All the modifiers like edicts, civics, traditions, high stability etc. seem to apply perfectly fine.
There's only 20 pops on the whole planet and it costs almost no upkeep, I think that's pretty neat.
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
It's really not. For rural districts, currently in the game are buildings that:
Add +XX% output
[snip]

There's seven for you. They're not that interesting individually but that's the low bar I'm talking about for them to be interesting in combination. If I have N building slots and N+ types of buildings I can build then working out what the best buildings to build in any scenario becomes a puzzle. If I have less than N building types then it's just makework.
I'm more concerned with research, unity, alloy, and CG worlds. Currently e.g. alloys have 3 buildings: efficiency, upkeep, and efficiency again (Ministry of Production). Then you have 3 more zone building slots unfilled and 5 government slots (though some of those will be filled with unrelated planet uniques like monuments or ascension buildings). You can add strategic resource buildings, but realistically you only need 1 or 2 of those in the entire empire (they're way too powerful). Both Automation and the extra district cap buildings are conditional.

So they need at least 4-6 more buildings to have no need for filler at all.
"But Critical Ethics, five of those are in the game! So therefore you have what you want!"
Nope. The second one is only available as being applied to an upgrade of the first one, the third is highly situational (and usually strictly worse than just throwing down a +200 building), the fourth is locked behind planetary features, and every single one of them is locked behind a tech. When you first unlock a specialisation your only use for building slots are as near one-for-one trades to help avoid having to build more districts, which is the exact opposite of the entire concept!
Unstacking the boosting buildings would certainly fill slots, but nerfing the economy just to make what was previously one piece of content look like two is bound to be unpopular

If you started the game with three very basic, district-unique buildings (+XX% output, +XX% pop efficiency, and one that does +XX%/2 of both) then building the automation building comes with an inherent tradeoff - you're losing about 20% output (lower due to stacking but you get the idea). The first 15% of the automation is a neutral gain in terms of per-pop efficiency, so you only need to cost off the remainder. Or, better yet, start with two buildings and only two unlocked slots with the third slot being unlocked by any tech from that district's tech tree that also grants a building.

I should also emphasise that I have no objection to buildings that add more jobs, my objection is spammable buildings that do nothing but add a large, fixed number of jobs. So balancing disparate buildings by sticking ~50 jobs onto the weaker ones is not an issue - especially given that they all should still be planet unique.
On a related tangent: I think a lot of this could also just be addressed by making e.g. one district unlock one building slot, up to 3, rather than giving all 3 slots with a single district. You could leave the flat job buildings, because the weird incentive to spam a single district would be gone, and the opportunity cost for them would go up.

That wasn't a bug. I reported it as a bug and they replied saying that they were doing it on purpose but would stop because everyone was completely insane not getting good feedback. Then they removed the building costs entirely and increased the per-district costs. Maybe they would have liked to include buildings in the rework and couldn't but there would be no need for them to do so if there weren't a +200 jobs building!
They didn't increase the per-district costs, for what it's worth. It was always 8 per district (and building) for the first one, and 10 for the second.

1) this is only the case if you're looking at the +200 building jobs as the standard rather than the horrible wart on the entire concept that they are. If the standard item you could put into specialisation slots were efficiency and output increasers then even on small planets you'd see returns from the increased pop and land efficiency.
2) if it weren't for the +200 job building they wouldn't need to make rural specialisations cost that much in the first place. This is what I'm trying to get at, they warp the entire game.
It's just "I have nothing to put in this building slot, so just give me an extra district". I just disagree that they're offensive at all, and simply can't see why you see it that way (aside from the way they deviate from the purity of "X districts give some effect that scales strictly with X", which isn't ever going to be perfect while capitals and ascension buildings exist.
That's the core issue, yes. They're filler buildings that mainly exist to fill slots when you don't have anything better to do with them, but their incredible suck field makes it infinitely harder to add better things to do with the slots. It's ouroboros of bad game components.
[snip]
4) Even if we ignore all that and look at if they work less poorly and how we can build on that, any dissimilarities are because they spit out empire level resources. There's no perverse incentives to meet the "minimum science requirement" of a planet by using the lowest possible number of districts like there is with rural districts, so few arguments that work for science labs really apply to base resource districts - and those arguments are best served by options 1 to 3 anyway.

e: The actual big exception is amenities.
They provide a consistent opportunity-cost floor for buildings: "Would I rather have this effect, or just have an extra N districts of jobs". Having a boring, ol' reliable filler building would be fine if the perverse incentive to build one district for a zone for 3 building slots went away, I think.

Lots of other things could fill that niche (Luxury Housing, for one), but I just don't see how the current solution is so offensive.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
Reactions:
Personally, I think the whole concept would have worked much better as job/district modifier. For the 50% automation one:
  • Close half of jobs.
  • +100% efficiency to that job
  • +200% upkeep to the district (aka +2 energy for rural, +4 for city, which cannot be reduced by % modifiers)
  • +1 energy upkeep for the job itself (minor)
On net: if you had 300 technician jobs before, you close 150 of them, but the 150 pops working the remainder get +100% efficiency (exactly 150 extra workforce if you work all jobs).

The upkeep is much lower (~5 energy per rural district, ~6 per city), but it's fine because you can no longer get free pops: it becomes a multiplier on the pops you have, sacrificing infrastructure efficiency for pop efficiency.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
I'm more concerned with research, unity, alloy, and CG worlds. Currently e.g. alloys have 3 buildings: efficiency, upkeep, and efficiency again (Ministry of Production). Then you have 3 more zone building slots unfilled and 5 city districts (though some of those will be filled with unrelated planet uniques like monuments or ascension buildings). You can add strategic resource buildings, but realistically you only need 1 or 2 of those in the entire empire (they're way too powerful). Both Automation and the extra district cap buildings are conditional.

So they need at least 4-6 more buildings to have no need for filler at all.
+XX% pop efficiency, +XX% output, +X output, -upkeep, +jobs per district, and automation are available for all of these, and that's ignoring the possibilities of buildings that are combinations of these. Alloys and cg already have a second flavour of +output alongside the SR outputs (which should absolutely be nerfed as well, solving two problems), research has the one per planet per-research-type buildings and a few event options (and should have more - the astral studies building should absolutely be research district locked for example), and unity IMO needs an overhaul anyway but still has a few options. And you could lock the +jobs-per-district buildings as per-specialisation rather than per-planet, allowing you to build one on each district and maybe even a third in the city slot. Or, as you say later, just use different, less game busting filler.
Unstacking the boosting buildings would certainly fill slots, but nerfing the economy just to make what was previously one piece of content look like two is bound to be unpopular
Doesn't need to be a nerf, just a split. If you want them upgradeable then instead of going 20% -> 20% and +2 static, rather make them distinct 20% -> 35% buildings and a +2 -> +3 buildings. Or do a a three-way mix and match of three distinct base buildings that upgrade into stealing bits of each others' gimmicks. Or keep the +2 output as the standard second tier since I've already pitched more than enough items.
On a related tangent: I think a lot of this could also just be addressed by making e.g. one district unlock one building slot, up to 3, rather than giving all 3 slots with a single district. You could leave the flat job buildings, because the weird incentive to spam a single district would be gone, and the opportunity cost for them would go up.
Oh god no, that's the exact opposite of everything I'm talking about. Just an absolute 180 run in the other direction. I literally cannot explain how far off this is from everything I'm talking about.
They didn't increase the per-district costs, for what it's worth. It was always 8 per district (and building) for the first one, and 10 for the second.
I thought they used to both be 8 but I'll take your word for it.
It's just "I have nothing to put in this building slot, so just give me an extra district". I just disagree that they're offensive at all, and simply can't see why you see it that way (aside from the way they deviate from the purity of "X districts give some effect that scales strictly with X", which isn't ever going to be perfect while capitals and ascension buildings exist.
Capital sector is an entirely different kettle of fish.
They provide a consistent opportunity-cost floor for buildings: "Would I rather have this effect, or just have an extra N districts of jobs". Having a boring, ol' reliable filler building would be fine if the perverse incentive to build one district for a zone for 3 building slots went away, I think.

Lots of other things could fill that niche (Luxury Housing, for one), but I just don't see how the current solution is so offensive.
It's a death of a thousand cuts. They have dozens of cons (many of which I've typed up over the past page), lead to weird degenerate strategies, and every one of their pros can be replaced with something else that works much better both in isolation and with the rest of the game. They're not even a good floor, since their utility is so wildly swingy in the 3 slot districts. They're the kind of "solution" that's worse than no solution, and part of that is because since they're already "solving" the problems they're "solving" (while tripling the total problems overall) it's harder to get good replacements put in than if there was nothing there in the first place.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
How come nobody has mentioned that you can reduce the upkeep of the automation building?
...

- three councilors with Architectural Sense III (the wiki says -5% upkeep reduction, but is seems to give -10% instead)
- the governor has the common Architecutal Interest trait for -20% and the Urbanist destiny trait for another -50%

I'm sure there are other building upkeep reduction modifiers, like -20% from the virtual synthetic dictatorship authority, but that's already -100% and it seems to be capped?
...

All the modifiers like edicts, civics, traditions, high stability etc. seem to apply perfectly fine.
There's only 20 pops on the whole planet and it costs almost no upkeep, I think that's pretty neat.
I did this with The Oracle on a machine world and hit the upkeep reduction cap lol. 3 energy upkeep per month per nexus district for 300 workforce? I'll take that deal. That's the same energy upkeep as 300 actual machine pops, but with no empire size.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
Reactions:
Both of these would be fixed if the buildings instead charged you based on how much workforce they actually provide. Make it 8 and 10 energy per 100 workforce automated respectively and I think it would be fair? Someone tell me if there's some kind of upside to how these buildings currently work that I'm not seeing.
You're only looking at base upkeep and output. Infrastructure upkeep modifiers apply to Automation buildings and output modifiers apply to automated workforce output. In this setup the Automation building has a maintenance of 7.2 energy and output of 9.9 energy. It's not great, but then again neither is this setup.

(Note that I am testing a variety of things with Agrarian Idyll to see if there's anything interesting I can do with the fact that Agrarian Villages specialization gives 3 urban building slots. It's not super exploitative, but you can move certain types of buildings you would build on every colony to your Agri districts like Robot Assembly Plants and Amenities buildings and then build more Alloy and Research buildings in your generic building slots. This can also be done with Subterranean and their unique district specialization.)

1747615908762.png
 
i was about to make a thread on this topic, when i saw it already exists. here's things i find weird about automation:

  • automation seems to try to do the same thing as robot construction, but it's somehow instant? what's the point of robots then?
  • you can automate specialist jobs before you can automate worker jobs, because you have to research district specialization first
  • pricing is weird, it scales with amount of districts, not amount of jobs. so automation is most price effective when you have a single city district with all the building slots filled.
  • you're at some point incentivized to REDUCE automation? that seems incredibly backwards.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
i was about to make a thread on this topic, when i saw it already exists. here's things i find weird about automation:

  • automation seems to try to do the same thing as robot construction, but it's somehow instant? what's the point of robots then?
  • you can automate specialist jobs before you can automate worker jobs, because you have to research district specialization first
  • pricing is weird, it scales with amount of districts, not amount of jobs. so automation is most price effective when you have a single city district with all the building slots filled.
  • you're at some point incentivized to REDUCE automation? that seems incredibly backwards.
Autonomous robot pops are ostensibly interchangeable with people, while automation represents specialized machinery that just... makes stuff.

I have to be honest, I'm not super in-love with the way district automation is implemented. I think instead it should give bonuses to effective workforce while reducing maximum jobs and giving them an energy upkeep. That said, if that sort of implementation is unwieldy to code then the way it's coded now might be the next best representation.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Nobody in their right mind would sell energy on the Galactic Market just to buy energy back — that would be madness. But if you could sell 10 energy to gain 3 research instead, depending on the situation, that might be a trade worth making. Automation effectively offers that kind of tradeoff at the district level.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Nobody in their right mind would sell energy on the Galactic Market just to buy energy back — that would be madness. But if you could sell 10 energy to gain 3 research instead, depending on the situation, that might be a trade worth making. Automation effectively offers that kind of tradeoff at the district level.
If it's worth doing, automation also lets you "sell" 10 energy to gain at least 11 energy.

More importantly, as noted earlier... pops are fungible.

Suppose it's not worth it to spend 8+1=9 energy building automated energy districts, because your technicians aren't productive enough for e.g. 75 workforce to make 9 energy back (T1 automation). You want to "buy" research with energy. You could automate another city district, paying 8+2=10 energy for 6*50/100=3 research.

75 workforce of technicians couldn't make 9 energy, so 10 energy must be at least 83 workforce to produce. So you can instead take 50 pops that were technicians, make them researchers, leave 33 working as technicians, and get all the same output more efficiently.

Now if you are, for some reason, sitting on a massive income of pop-free energy that can't be converted to anything else (vassals would be the only way with tech low enough to make automated technicians non-viable, I think), then the story would be different. You have no pops working as technicians to repurpose, so it makes sense to trade basic resources for reseach/unity/alloy by whatever means possible, at whatever exchange rate you can get.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
If it's worth doing, automation also lets you "sell" 10 energy to gain at least 11 energy.

More importantly, as noted earlier... pops are fungible.

Suppose it's not worth it to spend 8+1=9 energy building automated your energy districts, because your technicians aren't productive enough for e.g. 75 workforce to make 9 energy back (T1 automation). You want to "buy" research with energy. You could automate another city district, paying 8+2=10 energy for 6*50/100=3 research.
75 workforce of technicians couldn't make 9 energy, so 10 energy must be at least 83 workforce to produce. So you can instead take 50 pops that were technicians, make them researchers, leave 33 working as technicians, and get all the same output more efficiently.

Now if you are, for some reason, sitting on a massive income of pop-free energy that can't be converted to anything else (vassals would be the only way with tech low enough to make automated technicians non-viable, I think), then the story would be different. You have no pops working as technicians to repurpose, so it makes sense to trade basic resources for reseach/unity/alloy by whatever means possible, at whatever exchange rate you can get.


I just realized two important things:
+75 from basic resource districts is always more efficient than +50 from city districts,(and same efficiency)
and unless energy efficiency, automation almost always results in a net loss — except in very specific situations.