how about adding a post treaty carrier model to represent the Essex class carriers
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I have a question...
Looking at the CORE ".inc" files, I notice that they (at least some of them) have a big "modifiers" section that specifies various values for the different units. Is this:
1) where the values start BEFORE the effect of the tech apps given to that country in the same ".inc" file
2) where the values will be INCLUDING the effect of the tech apps given to that country in the same ".inc" file, until some new tech impacting them is discovered during play.
3) something else (please explain what)
?
Looking at the CORE ".inc" files, I notice that they (at least some of them) have a big "modifiers" section that specifies various values for the different units. Is this:
1) where the values start BEFORE the effect of the tech apps given to that country in the same ".inc" file
2) where the values will be INCLUDING the effect of the tech apps given to that country in the same ".inc" file, until some new tech impacting them is discovered during play.
3) something else (please explain what)
?
1) where the values start BEFORE the effect of the tech apps given to that country in the same ".inc" file
Here's something, really just sort of brainstorming.
Corvettes. It takes all sorts of costly tech to research corvettes, I assume because they are probably cheap and easy to assign as convoy escorts. (And get killed. I still have yet to see any reason whatsoever to use convoy escorts for the abstracted convoys, unless there are destroyers you really would like to see killed off for no benefit. The way to protect convoys is to build real destroyers and real naval aircraft and go beat the shit out of the subs.) I myself have never seen or built a corvette in the game.
Maybe corvettes could become the poor nation's destroyer flotillas, if they were available sooner?
jkk
Corvettes. It takes all sorts of costly tech to research corvettes, I assume because they are probably cheap and easy to assign as convoy escorts. (And get killed. I still have yet to see any reason whatsoever to use convoy escorts for the abstracted convoys, unless there are destroyers you really would like to see killed off for no benefit. The way to protect convoys is to build real destroyers and real naval aircraft and go beat the shit out of the subs.) I myself have never seen or built a corvette in the game.
Maybe corvettes could become the poor nation's destroyer flotillas, if they were available sooner?
jkk
Cool - is CORE using this model national differences due to factors that are not really "technical" (tradition, training practices, culture, etc...)?
They do become rather inexpensive. That is part of the point.
I have built and used them. The model number means that the AI won't build them. If you give them a higher number, then the AI will build only them. What I do is build a bunch of them and spread them out across my sealanes. When the enemy subs come to hit your convoys, there are your ASW groups sitting there waiting.
But corvettes really weren't the poor man's ship. The US built them in yards that couldn't build full size destroyers. The UK did the same thing. Given the choice between a smaller less capable platform and the better one, the navy almost always chose the destroyer. This is how it happens in CORE as well when a player is deciding which units to build. Do I want to spend the extra IC to get a unit that can actually put up a fight against something other than a sub? That is what corvettes are good for, ASW. They could become the poor man's destroyer if they were too easy to get. I was actually trying to prevent that. MDow
Italian Naval OOB
Hi, just played 0.61 with italy and thats what I´ve got:
The San Giorno a Cruiser in the Fleet of 1a Naviglio is stationed in Al Quattara - wich is in fact a landlocked desert province in Egypt.
Don´t think it makes much sense to cruise sand dunes ....
MfG
Sonic
Will post in the 0.6 tread as well
Hi, just played 0.61 with italy and thats what I´ve got:
The San Giorno a Cruiser in the Fleet of 1a Naviglio is stationed in Al Quattara - wich is in fact a landlocked desert province in Egypt.
Don´t think it makes much sense to cruise sand dunes ....
MfG
Sonic
Will post in the 0.6 tread as well
About the naval side of things in Sweden:
Is the Gotland supposed to be a CL? Shouldn't it be an aviation cruiser? Apparently, the main point of the ship's existence was providing air support to the battlegroup. And if the number of aircraft carried isn't sufficient, how about at least giving the Gotland a higher air defense?
Also, is Sweden's naval tech supposed to be that low?
Is the Gotland supposed to be a CL? Shouldn't it be an aviation cruiser? Apparently, the main point of the ship's existence was providing air support to the battlegroup. And if the number of aircraft carried isn't sufficient, how about at least giving the Gotland a higher air defense?
Also, is Sweden's naval tech supposed to be that low?
Re: Italian Naval OOB
It is the Italian Navy They don't always make sense in what they do. MDow
It is the Italian Navy
They don't always make sense in what they do. MDow
She really isn't an aviation cruiser in game terms. Gotland operated float planes for reconisance (about 8 I think). The aviation cruiser in the game is based on a US design that was supposed to carry standard naval aircraft in squadron strength (24 aircraft). Gotland really was a WWI style light cruiser with a large complement of scouting aircraft. MDow
BB Models Update
Here is my plan for the update to the battleship models for version 0.7. MDow
Model 0: Coast Defence Battleship (Norweigen Norge-class and older Swedish battleships)
Model 1: Pre-Dreadnaught Battleship (Greek Lemnos and German Deutchland)
Model 2: Battlecruiser (Turkish Yavuz)
Model 3: Dreadnaught (Argentine Moreno and Spanish Espana)
Model 4: Treaty Battlecruiser (German Scharnhorst)
Model 5: Large Battlecruiser (British Hood and Japanese Kongo)
Model 6: Super-Dreadnaught (US Maryland and British Royal Soverign)
Model 7: Fast Dreadnaught (British Queen Elizabeth and Japanese Nagato)
Model 8: Treaty Battleship (US North Carolina and British King George V
Model 9: Fast Battleship (US Iowa-class)
Model 10: Post-Treaty Battleship (German Bismark)
Model 11: Super Battleship (Japanese Yamato and US Montana)
Model 12: Guided Missile Battleship
Model 13: Nuclear Super Battleship
Model 14: Nuclear Guided Missile Battleship
Here is my plan for the update to the battleship models for version 0.7. MDow
Model 0: Coast Defence Battleship (Norweigen Norge-class and older Swedish battleships)
Model 1: Pre-Dreadnaught Battleship (Greek Lemnos and German Deutchland)
Model 2: Battlecruiser (Turkish Yavuz)
Model 3: Dreadnaught (Argentine Moreno and Spanish Espana)
Model 4: Treaty Battlecruiser (German Scharnhorst)
Model 5: Large Battlecruiser (British Hood and Japanese Kongo)
Model 6: Super-Dreadnaught (US Maryland and British Royal Soverign)
Model 7: Fast Dreadnaught (British Queen Elizabeth and Japanese Nagato)
Model 8: Treaty Battleship (US North Carolina and British King George V
Model 9: Fast Battleship (US Iowa-class)
Model 10: Post-Treaty Battleship (German Bismark)
Model 11: Super Battleship (Japanese Yamato and US Montana)
Model 12: Guided Missile Battleship
Model 13: Nuclear Super Battleship
Model 14: Nuclear Guided Missile Battleship
CA Models Update
Here are my ideas for the models for cruisers in 0.7. MDow
Model 0: Sloop (Portuguese Diaz and US Eire)
Model 1: Protected Cruiser (Chinese light cruisers)
Model 2: Armored Cruiser (Greek Averoff and Italian San Georgio)
Model 3: Light Cruiser (US Omaha and Japanese Kitakami)
Model 4: Pocket Battleship (German Deutchland)
Model 5: Treaty Light Cruiser (British Achilles and US Brooklyn)
Model 6: Treaty Heavy Cruiser (British Kent and US New Orleans)
Model 7: Super Cruiser (US Alaska)
Model 8: Post-Treaty Light Cruiser (US Cleveland and Japanese Oyodo)
Model 9: Post-Treaty Heavy Cruiser (US Baltimore)
Model 10: Guided Missile Cruiser (US Albany and Soviet Kara)
Model 11: Nuclear Super Cruiser
Model 12: Nuclear Light Cruiser
Model 13: Nuclear Heavy Cruiser
Model 14: Nucear Guided Missile Cruiser (US Long Beach)
Here are my ideas for the models for cruisers in 0.7. MDow
Model 0: Sloop (Portuguese Diaz and US Eire)
Model 1: Protected Cruiser (Chinese light cruisers)
Model 2: Armored Cruiser (Greek Averoff and Italian San Georgio)
Model 3: Light Cruiser (US Omaha and Japanese Kitakami)
Model 4: Pocket Battleship (German Deutchland)
Model 5: Treaty Light Cruiser (British Achilles and US Brooklyn)
Model 6: Treaty Heavy Cruiser (British Kent and US New Orleans)
Model 7: Super Cruiser (US Alaska)
Model 8: Post-Treaty Light Cruiser (US Cleveland and Japanese Oyodo)
Model 9: Post-Treaty Heavy Cruiser (US Baltimore)
Model 10: Guided Missile Cruiser (US Albany and Soviet Kara)
Model 11: Nuclear Super Cruiser
Model 12: Nuclear Light Cruiser
Model 13: Nuclear Heavy Cruiser
Model 14: Nucear Guided Missile Cruiser (US Long Beach)
I don't really know enough about WWII era ships to comment on the arangement and Class names but is the DeutschLand mentioned twice the same ship or two different ships that shared the same name?
Different ships altogether. Curiously, by 1940 neither class had a ship named Deutschland. Hitler decided the possible loss of a ship called Germany would be either bad for morale or a bad omen.
The pre-dreadnought battleship class Deutschland was the last of the type to be built by Germany. By the treaty of Versailles, Germany could only keep 6 of the pre-dreadnoughts, so they kept the most recent. When time came to replace them, Germany couldn't afford to do so, so some ships of the class saw service in WW2. The first shots of WW2 were fired by Schleswig-Holstein. Ships in class: Deutschland (scrapped '22), Hannover (struck in '35), Pommern (sunk at Jutland), Schlesien (beached at Swinemünde by the end of the war, still fired on advancing soviets), Schleswig-Holstein (sunk by british aircraft, later raised by the soviets)
The pocket battleships were designed to replace the previous Deutschland class. Ships in class: Deutschland (renamed Lützow), Admiral Scheer, Admiral Graf Spee. Ring a bell? Those cash shortages, and a realization that the design was not that good stopped any more production.
Marvel at the power of Google!
The pre-dreadnought battleship class Deutschland was the last of the type to be built by Germany. By the treaty of Versailles, Germany could only keep 6 of the pre-dreadnoughts, so they kept the most recent. When time came to replace them, Germany couldn't afford to do so, so some ships of the class saw service in WW2. The first shots of WW2 were fired by Schleswig-Holstein. Ships in class: Deutschland (scrapped '22), Hannover (struck in '35), Pommern (sunk at Jutland), Schlesien (beached at Swinemünde by the end of the war, still fired on advancing soviets), Schleswig-Holstein (sunk by british aircraft, later raised by the soviets)
The pocket battleships were designed to replace the previous Deutschland class. Ships in class: Deutschland (renamed Lützow), Admiral Scheer, Admiral Graf Spee. Ring a bell? Those cash shortages, and a realization that the design was not that good stopped any more production.
Marvel at the power of Google!
Re: BB Models Update
I think the model numbers of these two should be reversed. The Iowas were superior in just about every was to the Bismarcks, so if the AI has the techs to build both then it should be building Iowas.
I think the model numbers of these two should be reversed. The Iowas were superior in just about every was to the Bismarcks, so if the AI has the techs to build both then it should be building Iowas.
Not quite...
The original Deutschland class were designed as battleships - meaning designed to form the line of battle in a fleet engagement of the era before carriers changed the rules. At the time they were built, the naval strategy of which they were a part was to build a battle fleet that could challenge the UK for control of the seas in just such a major battle. Kaiser Bill read Mahan...
The "pocket battleships" were not designed or intended to replace them. They were not designed with fleet engagements in mind at all. The naval strategy of which they were a part was "sea denial" - starve the UK into peace on terms favorable to Germany by attacking convoys. The "pocket battleships" were officially called "armoured ships", and were designed as commerce raiders to overwhelm the convoy escorts and sink the merchant ships.
The "pocket battleships" were not badly designed for their purpose. Their arrangement of diesel engines gave them great cruising range. Their speed of 28 knots gave them the ability to decline action with any capital ship in the Royal Navy at the time they were designed, except the Hoods. Their 11" main battery gave them the ability to defeat any crusers in the RN (Admiral Graf Spee's captain made a grave tactical error - he could have held the range to one where he could pound the British cruisers with impunity, but deliberately closed the range to one where the Brit's 8" were effective - it was the man, not the machine
) They were designed with a pretense at honoring the 10,000 ton limit imposed on Germany for all ships by the treaty of Versailles (and imposed on everybody else's cruisers by the post-WWI Naval Treaties).The Scharnhorsts were officially designated as "improved 10,000 ton type", and were intended for the same mission as the "pocket battleships" - only with no pretense at honoring the 10,000 ton limit. The Brits classed them "battlecruisers" because it was the closest fit in their fleet-engagement mindedset, but they were never intended for the battlecruiser's tactical mission (to overwhelm the enemy fleet's cruiser screen during the initial search phase of a major fleet engagement so as to perform recon while denying its benifits to the enemy).
I didn't mean they were meant to replace the earlier class in the role it played. I meant they were supposed to replace them in the fleet. When they were designed, Germany was (as you said) still honouring the Versailles treaty (bending the rules a bit isn't the same as breaking them outright ) and had to replace the pre-dreadnoughts with 10,000 ton ships, and only after they were 20 years old. Hence my saying the pocket-battleships were to replace the earlier Deutschland class. No more were built because Germany couldn't, in 1929 and into the 30s, afford to do the full replacement, and when they could afford to do so the speed of newer units already made the pocket-battleships too slow to outrun what they couldn't outgun.
) and had to replace the pre-dreadnoughts with 10,000 ton ships, and only after they were 20 years old. Hence my saying the pocket-battleships were to replace the earlier Deutschland class. No more were built because Germany couldn't, in 1929 and into the 30s, afford to do the full replacement, and when they could afford to do so the speed of newer units already made the pocket-battleships too slow to outrun what they couldn't outgun.
Re: Re: BB Models Update
I have my own thoughts on the matter, but I am really interested in hearing yours. I don't have a preference as to the order, so I am really just looking for a good arguement one way or the other. MDow
I have my own thoughts on the matter, but I am really interested in hearing yours. I don't have a preference as to the order, so I am really just looking for a good arguement one way or the other
. MDow
Re: Re: Re: BB Models Update
Your wish is my command, Commander!
My source is "Jane's Warships of WWII"...
Bismarck:
Displacement: 42,300 tons standard, 51,750 tons full load
Main battery: 8 x 15" 47-calibre
Power: 138,000 shp
Speed: 30 knots max
Protection: sides 320mm, decks 50mm & 80mm w/ 100mm glacis, bulkheads 220mm, turrets 360mm, barbettes 100mm
Iowa:
Displacement: 45,000 tons standard, 57,450 tons full load
Main battery: 9 x 16" 50-calibre
Power: 212,000 shp
Speed: 33 knots max
Protection: sides 310mm, decks 161mm, bulkheads 280mm, turrets 496mm, barbettes 439mm
In short, the Iowas were bigger, faster, more heavily armed & more heavily armored than the Bismarcks... simply a more advanced design.
Originally posted by MateDow
I have my own thoughts on the matter, but I am really interested in hearing yours. I don't have a preference as to the order, so I am really just looking for a good arguement one way or the other
Your wish is my command, Commander!
My source is "Jane's Warships of WWII"...
Bismarck:
Displacement: 42,300 tons standard, 51,750 tons full load
Main battery: 8 x 15" 47-calibre
Power: 138,000 shp
Speed: 30 knots max
Protection: sides 320mm, decks 50mm & 80mm w/ 100mm glacis, bulkheads 220mm, turrets 360mm, barbettes 100mm
Iowa:
Displacement: 45,000 tons standard, 57,450 tons full load
Main battery: 9 x 16" 50-calibre
Power: 212,000 shp
Speed: 33 knots max
Protection: sides 310mm, decks 161mm, bulkheads 280mm, turrets 496mm, barbettes 439mm
In short, the Iowas were bigger, faster, more heavily armed & more heavily armored than the Bismarcks... simply a more advanced design.