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Originally posted by Reichsmarshall
I see your reasoning on the Ranger, but still disagree... Yorktowns were about 5 knots faster, 5000 tons heavier, carried 10-15 more planes, and had better protection.
Comparing Ranger with Wasp: Wasp is only 200 tons heavier, has same rated speed (29.5 kts), and closer to the same air group size (76 for Wasp, 72 for Ranger). They could both be considered 'small fleet carriers' as opposed to 'fleet carriers' like the Yorktown & Essex classes. However, as I've been rambling here, I realized that there isn't a separate classification for different sizes of fleet carriers, so I guess in comparison to the Independence class CVL's or the CVE's... Ranger does more fit with the Yorktowns. :)

"Nevermind". :wacko:

I will take a look. I am probably wrong in my recollection if you are sitting there with the numbers in front of you.:eek:o We can make the Ranger a small fleet carrier in the next release. There is a category already there for them (actually called Wasp IRC ;)). I somehow had it stuck in my head that the Ranger was bigger than the Wasp. That is what I get for focussing on battleships all of the time. They are so much more interesting though :D. MDow
 
Originally posted by Reichsmarshall
Agreed. I've often said that the airplane ruined warfare. :)

With 1.05c, I actually have to pay attention to carriers now :D. Part of me that doesn't believe in the realism loved running into a fleet of carriers and sending them to the bottom with concentrated naval gunfire. MDow
 
I'm not sure if this is the right place to mention this but (in 0.61) 2000t destroyers have base sub attack 1 and air attack 4. Should that be the other way round or am I missing something?

--Loops.
 
Manpower

In 1.05c you need 1 MP to build a "Bismark"-class battleship, that has gone to 4 MP with CORE v0.62. The real Bismark had a crew of 2221 men. Do you view one BB in the game as 2 real BBs? Because, if it stands for one, MP should be 1.5 (2221/1500), right?
 
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I've been working to the 1 MP = 750 figure so three for the crew plus one more for the shore based infrastructure. Iowa class crews were actually very close to 3000 personnel so 4 MP is just right there. Four seems reasonable to me.
 
Originally posted by Ögedei Khan
I see.

In general, there is very serious problem with MP counting, since support personnel in most wargames is really underestimated.

Example - at the end of 1944, whole personnel of Lutwaffe was around 1,5 mln people. Of course Luftwaffe is a special case, since Fat Hermann created line divisions, panzer divs, and whole baroque add-on's from the decent air force, but nevertheless, support personnel was very important part of air force. And in HoI almost every air unit is 1 MP.

I don't know real numbers (any real experts on air forces logistics around?), but IMO number of support personnel for 1 fighter plane would be like 10:1. Or even more. Not just mechanics, but weapon crews, land transport units, construction teams, staff, administration... all of them soldiers.

That the part of army and warfare rarely seen on the movies. :D
 
Originally posted by Copper Nicus


I don't know real numbers (any real experts on air forces logistics around?), but IMO number of support personnel for 1 fighter plane would be like 10:1. Or even more. Not just mechanics, but weapon crews, land transport units, construction teams, staff, administration... all of them soldiers.

That the part of army and warfare rarely seen on the movies. :D

MathGuy and I traded a couple of posts on this in his mod thread IIRC. I never have found a decent internet reference, but the conclusion I come to was MP=(10*aircrew*#of planes)/750 was a decent guess with some additional adjustment upward for multiple engine planes. Also, the build time is too short, especially for strat bombers..
 
Originally posted by Loops
I'm not sure if this is the right place to mention this but (in 0.61) 2000t destroyers have base sub attack 1 and air attack 4. Should that be the other way round or am I missing something?

--Loops.

Have you been researching AA techs and not naval techs? For the most part, many of the destroyer designs will have an ASW rating of 1 or 2 before any ASW technology. If you have been researching the 20mm, 30mm, and 40mm AA gun, that would give you a large air attack rating. If these are 'vanilla' destroyers with no tech modifiers, then there is something I need to look at for a fix. MDow
 
Re: Manpower

Originally posted by Ögedei Khan
In 1.05c you need 1 MP to build a "Bismark"-class battleship, that has gone to 4 MP with CORE v0.62. The real Bismark had a crew of 2221 men. Do you view one BB in the game as 2 real BBs? Because, if it stands for one, MP should be 1.5 (2221/1500), right?

Battleships are still one ship units in CORE. It has been a while since I have played Vanilla HoI, is the Bismarck the 150mm+ Battleship or something different? :confused: I never understood that one :D.

Part of the increase is the large crews that battleships have compared to other types of warships. It takes a lot of skilled crew to man a batteship and ht a target at 20nm :D. The other part is to make the decision to build a better class of battleship more of a choice than just pure IC cost. MDow
 
Originally posted by MateDow
Have you been researching AA techs and not naval techs? For the most part, many of the destroyer designs will have an ASW rating of 1 or 2 before any ASW technology. If you have been researching the 20mm, 30mm, and 40mm AA gun, that would give you a large air attack rating. If these are 'vanilla' destroyers with no tech modifiers, then there is something I need to look at for a fix. MDow

I'm talking about the stats as listed for the 2000 ton destroyer in destroyers.txt.

--Loops.
 
Naval Air

I am not sure if this is the correct spot for this I did not see a thread on aircraft. Anyway, it has been kinda of disappointing that HOI lacks real carrier air. I think this can be changed though.
I think the torpedo bomber needs to be modified.

These bombers mainly existed only in carrier based versions. First, rename this carrier bombers. These would have much lower cost to produce, about 1/3 this is the number of planes a carrier wing would represent compared to a land based wing. So carrier bombers would cost about 1/3 of what they do now. Also there would be two models, a dive bomber and a torpedo bomber (Kate and Val or TBD and SBD)

However, there would be a balance here. The stats would not stay the same. Naval attack would not change carrier air was very strong against navies. For some reason the basic torpedeo bomber a higher air defense than a basic tactical bomber. This is ridiculus. These were very slow moving aircraft that were much smaller than a tactical bomber.

So I would propose the torpedeo bomber tech would look like this.

model = {
cost = 3
buildtime = 140
defaultorganisation = 30
manpower = 1
maxspeed = 250
surfacedetectioncapability = 2
airdetectioncapability = 0
surfacedefence = 3
airdefence = 1
airattack = 1
strategicattack = 0
tacticalattack = 0
navalattack = 5
range = 200
supplyconsumption = 1
fuelconsumption = 1
}
# 1 - Basic Torpedo Bomber
model = {
cost = 4
buildtime = 140
defaultorganisation = 30
manpower = 1
maxspeed = 350
surfacedetectioncapability = 3
airdetectioncapability =1
surfacedefence = 5
airdefence = 2
airattack = 1
strategicattack = 0
tacticalattack = 0
navalattack = 7
range = 300
supplyconsumption = 1
fuelconsumption = 1
}
# 2 - Improved Torpedo Bomber
model = {
cost = 5
buildtime = 140
defaultorganisation = 30
manpower = 2
maxspeed = 400
surfacedetectioncapability = 3
airdetectioncapability = 1
surfacedefence = 7
airdefence = 3
airattack = 1
strategicattack = 0
tacticalattack = 0
navalattack = 9
range = 400
supplyconsumption = 1
fuelconsumption = 1
}
# 3 - Advanced Torpedo Bomber
model = {
cost = 6
buildtime = 140
defaultorganisation = 30
manpower = 1
maxspeed = 450
surfacedetectioncapability = 3
airdetectioncapability = 1
surfacedefence = 9
airdefence = 4
airattack = 1
strategicattack = 0
tacticalattack = 0
navalattack = 11
range = 525
supplyconsumption = 1
fuelconsumption = 1

The divebomber would look the same expect have slightly faster speed and maybe a little less naval attacks and maybe slight higher air and surface defence, they could have a chance at running away.

It also struck me as odd that torpedeo improvements do not affect torpedeo bomber stats. The US had a decent torpedeo bomber in the TBD but their torpedeos were crap making them totally ineffective. Perhaps naval attack could be lowered some and torpedeo advances could boost naval attack ratings.

The other problem is a lack of carrier based fighters. I have thought about this some and 2 things came to mind. Either adding a carrier based prototype in a basic, improved and advanced form or getting rid of the MR fighter and replacing it with carrier based fighter. If the latter occurred there could a multirole interceptor and a multirole escort tech. Fairly cheap but would allow a new unit that had slightly lower air attack and higher ground attack, maybe a little more range for interceptors, a little less range for escorts.

Again the carrier based fighter would be 1/3 of the size of a normal fighter wing. Therefore less attack, defence, and cost.
The fighter file would look like this. Where MR fighter is carrier based.

model = { # Early carrier fighter
cost = 4
buildtime = 150
defaultorganisation = 30
manpower = 1
maxspeed = 350
surfacedetectioncapability = 3
airdetectioncapability = 1
surfacedefence = 2
airdefence = 1
airattack = 1
strategicattack = 0
tacticalattack = 0
navalattack = 0
range = 200
supplyconsumption = 1
fuelconsumption = 1
}

model = { # Basic Carrier Fighter
cost = 5
buildtime = 150
defaultorganisation = 30
manpower = 1
maxspeed = 500
surfacedetectioncapability = 4
airdetectioncapability = 3
surfacedefence = 3
airdefence = 2
airattack = 2
strategicattack = 0
tacticalattack = 1
navalattack = 0
range = 450
supplyconsumption = 1
fuelconsumption = 1
model = { # Improved Multirole Fighter
cost = 6
buildtime = 150
defaultorganisation = 30
manpower = 1
maxspeed = 600
surfacedetectioncapability = 6
airdetectioncapability = 6
surfacedefence = 4
airdefence = 3
airattack = 3
strategicattack = 0
tacticalattack = 1
navalattack = 1
range = 600
supplyconsumption = 1
fuelconsumption = 1
}
model = { # Advanced Carrier Fighter
cost = 20
buildtime = 150
defaultorganisation = 30
manpower = 1
maxspeed = 650
surfacedetectioncapability = 8
airdetectioncapability = 8
surfacedefence = 5
airdefence = 4
airattack = 5
strategicattack = 0
tacticalattack = 2
navalattack = 2
range = 800
supplyconsumption = 1
fuelconsumption = 1
}

Like the bombers these have defense, attack, and supply values due to smaller size. So LBA would tear up any carrier based squadron due to larger size while carrier based fighters would be very effective against carrier based bombers but not as effective against Land based bombers.

Another thought is to leave the defense the same. The US did routinely engage Japanese LBA and win but these contest, early in the war were bloody, unlike the Marianas Turkey shoot later in the war. The change would also allow the US and Japan to equip their carriers much easier. Humans could use carrier based squadrons for patrols on islands where only carrier based air could reach. So the Japanese and US AI might be able to be programmed to place carrier based air to defend island posessions.
 
Naval Air Groups

Very interesting ideas... but we are already working on that. :D

In 0.7 you will find new air tech tree, that includes special new unit, replacing torpedo bombers - Carrier Air Group (CAG). This unit will represent roughly 30 mixed planes of fighter/diver/torpedo plane classes, so we will be able to put 1-3 of them on the carrier without weird ahistorical effects (land based models of planes will still represent 70-90 planes).

CAG will have only one model, but you will be able to upgrade it with various air/weapons techs, as well as mayor upgrade would happed every time you invent new generation of light bomber/LR fighter (which BTW is not the same as in old tech tree - 2-engined LR fighters and 1-engined ones are diffrent classes).

That system will require one thing from human players - agreeing the "house rule", that on CV's only CAG's will be based (AI can cheat, it needs that...).

And it's only one of many changes in air warfare system...
 
Re: Zeppelins

Originally posted by Engineer
In the context here:

Great War Doctrine:
Airship Scouting Doctrine - Basic Dirigibles (cruiser org?)

This one is going to be added in as Lighter Than Air Craft which will give a naval detection bonus to cruisers and battleships.


Interwar Doctrine:
Improved Airship Scouting - Improved Dirigibles (Graf Zeppelin, Shendadoah, R101) (cruiser org)

This one is also going to be added as Improved Lighter Than Air Craft Reconnesaince with give a further naval and sub detection bonus to cruisers and battleships.


Carrier Airships - Advanced Dirigibles (Akron/Hindenburg) (diplomatic influence (?) ) Too fragile for combat with the improvements in heavier than air warplanes.

A little too weird even for me to put in to the game. These really were failed experiments and with the development of carriers and longer range aircraft, unecessary.


Middle War Doctrine
ASW Blimps - Wartime LTA - improves ASW effectiveness of escorts - This is the real pay-off for this whole line of technology development

Included as the tech Blimp Anti-Submarine Warfare with a bonus to convoy defense. I am also going to put in a tech for Blimp Development for a pre-requisite.


Late War Doctrine:
Radar Picket Blimps - even better ASW with one of the advanced airborne radar techs as an additional prerequisite.

This will be put in as the tech Blimp Airborne Radar. It will give an org bonus for land based fighters. These were historically used for early warning over the US for strategic detection of inbound raids.

There will also be a doctrine that will unlock all of these techs. Hopefully this will meet with everyone's approval. There won't be any new units in the game so you won't have to worry about fleets of airships roaming the globe. If we ever get to the point where we have a sprite for every model, a cruiser model that is an airship could become a possibility ;). MDow
 
Re: Re: Zeppelins

Originally posted by MateDow
This one is going to be added in as Lighter Than Air Craft which will give a naval detection bonus to cruisers and battleships.

This one is also going to be added as Improved Lighter Than Air Craft Reconnesaince with give a further naval and sub detection bonus to cruisers and battleships.MDow

I have a problem with these two--it never happened for a good reason. Lighter Than Air Craft (LTAC) were never used operationally in any war for fleet recon. This role is handled by long range patrol planes in HOI and reality. Blimps were used for convoy protection where there was no enemy air threat.

I think one or two effectively useless techs before ASW blimps are OK to discourage non historical effects are OK.
 
Within the context of HOI, Kevin is right.

The Zeppelins and dirigibles that did operate in a fleet scouting roles during the Great War were demobilized and scrapped after that war. The US sank a ton of money into dirigible development in the 1920s and early 1930s. On paper one airship could scout as much ocean as a cruiser squadron for a fraction of the cost. Some of the fleet exercises were promising, but by 1936 the big airships had all crashed except the Los Angeles and she was laid up.

Navy blimps did also operate in a scouting role during interwar peace time exercises, but I don't have documentation that they were used or even seriously considered for fleet operations. By 1941, the advances in fighter plane technology made that unthinkable.

The effects are ok for a Great War context, but I think they need to be stripped out for CORE. The techs as pre-requisites should remain in there to put a high enough cost barrier in place to discourage the Italians or Japanese from playing an ahistorical catch-up.

One other item, I got too aggressive on the time line. Navy "K" class blimps handled the basic ASW role. By 1944, the "M" class was introduced that had surface search radar (look for that periscope or schnorkel mast). The post-war (early 1950s intro) "N" class were sometimes equipped with air search radar and could be used in a picket role. So I would recommend that the radar picket needs to be far along the tech path (with a late generation radar as a pre-requisite) and maybe there is an advanced ASW Blimp inbetween.
 
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OK, I will change the tech tree to take into account these changes.

I am about half way through updating the tech tree. The changes are mostly involved in adding the additional types of ships that are going to be included. Some of the other changes are updating some of the pre-reqs to eliminate the dead end techs and to incorperate the new naval doctrine tree into the naval tech tree. We are also putting in some of the Mathguy concepts for reducing the cost of tech research and increasing the time. This means that there won't be a tech that costs more than 4 or 5 IC to research, but the shortest time will be 180 days. Most of the techs will be 2 IC and 180 days. This will mean that countries can have some more varied research lines due to the reduced cost. It will take some testing to insure that it doesn't unbalance everything, but should be a good improvement.

I am also getting ready to start coding up the submarine tech tree. If you would like to see the proposed outline, drop me a PM with your e-mail address, and I will send you the excel spreadsheet that I am using.

That is where the new naval techs and doctrines stand. I figured everyone would like an update, and I try to be accomedating. ;) MDow
 
Fast Battleships

I was wondering where I should place the tech for Fast Battleships which represents ships like the Iowa-class battleships. Do they belong with the Treaty Battleships which will make them more accessible, or do they belong down with the Super Battleships where it will take longer to develop? I know that if I had to make the decision myself, there would be numerous posts about either the difficulty of developing the ships or the fact that there are Iowa-class battleships running around in 1938. This way I can blame all of you :D. What do y'all think should happen? MDow
 
Originally posted by MateDow
OK, I will change the tech tree to take into account these changes.

We are also putting in some of the Mathguy concepts for reducing the cost of tech research and increasing the time. This means that there won't be a tech that costs more than 4 or 5 IC to research, but the shortest time will be 180 days. Most of the techs will be 2 IC and 180 days. This will mean that countries can have some more varied research lines due to the reduced cost. It will take some testing to insure that it doesn't unbalance everything, but should be a good improvement.


Doctrines thatincrease effectiveness by introduction of abstracted units, like ASW Blimps, should be much more expensive than adoctrines that consist of a bunch of field grade officers writting manuals.