C.O.R.E. HOI - Naval Mod

[MateDow]

Dagh!!! I just started playing the .70 mod. What were you people thinking! With all of the things I have to chose from in the tech tree you make this game look like a strategy game. What do you mean I can't have my cake and eat it too! Why can't my generals build ships that are fast, and tough, and strong. Now I have to pick!

I have found your problem. Generals building ships. Must be the People's Army Navy. :rofl:

Seriously, great job on this mod. It is a whole new game...oh and it does crash anymore either. Well done!

Joel

Thank you for the feedback. Keep those generals away from your ships. MDow

 

[Kevin Mc Carthy]

The King George V-class battleships were started in 1937. The limitations of the Washington Treaty weren't relaxed until March 1936 when Japan backed out of the treaty process. There really isn't a way to simulate the treaty limitations through event , but we can hope that someone will find a way. MDow

Assume that there is a blocked tech, call it Washington Treaty Cancellation, required for Post-Treaty ships. If there was an event, or more than 1, for the cancellation of the treaty that triggered a number of events (1/country) that gave this Treaty Cancellation to each country. Would this work?

 

[MateDow]

Assume that there is a blocked tech, call it Washington Treaty Cancellation, required for Post-Treaty ships. If there was an event, or more than 1, for the cancellation of the treaty that triggered a number of events (1/country) that gave this Treaty Cancellation to each country. Would this work?

You are beyond my level of programming. The idea looks like it might work, but I am not sure about the mechanics. MDow

 

[Kevin Mc Carthy]

You are beyond my level of programming. The idea looks like it might work, but I am not sure about the mechanics. MDow

I'll post it on Wiki. I don't have the skill to do this but maybe Phil K or Steel do.

 

[unmerged(18218)]

Here are the dates that construction was started...

Hiryu 8 July, 1936
Shokaku 12 December, 1937
Zuikaku 25 May, 1938

They definitely should not be under construction at the beginning of the game.

[

This is where I am confused.

Bismark laid down July 1, 1936
Tripitz laid down October 20, 1936

So by this logic they should not be under construction at the beginning of the game either. However, I do not think they should be taken out. It ensures the AI builds them and allows Germany to concentrate on only land builds, although this means the Prince Eugene is not built. Although it was laid 4/23/36 before the Bismark so a case could be made to include it as well.

I thought the Hiryu might should be under development because its keel laying is just a week after Bismark and before Tripitz.

If the reason is to make it easier on the AI, it seems to make sense to place the Yamato and Mushashi under development and set Japanese AI to build no BBs, these were the only 2 launched by Japan after 1936, not including refits. Although these ships were not laid down until 1936 and 1937 respectively.

Moving the Hiryu, Shokaku, and Zuikaku to the front of the line in unitnames should be done though, if the Hiryu is not under development. These were the next three launched.

 

[MateDow]

This is where I am confused.

Bismark laid down July 1, 1936
Tripitz laid down October 20, 1936

So by this logic they should not be under construction at the beginning of the game either.

Shhh. Don't tell anyone.

One of the things that I have looked at for 0.71 is removing Bismarck and Tirpitz from Germany's construction que. I didn't remove them for 0.7 because I didn't want to deal with the feedback from the dedicated Germany players o .

For the sake of realism they should be removed. What do other people think? MDow

 

[Kevin Mc Carthy]

For the sake of realism they should be removed. What do other people think? MDow

I think they should come out but add some BB build events to Germany.txt. I don't trust the .ai files enough to simulate near historical builds

 

[unmerged(18218)]

Shhh. Don't tell anyone.

One of the things that I have looked at for 0.71 is removing Bismarck and Tirpitz from Germany's construction que. I didn't remove them for 0.7 because I didn't want to deal with the feedback from the dedicated Germany players o .

For the sake of realism they should be removed. What do other people think? MDow

I am not sure. On one hand I would say they don't belong there simply because they weren't started yet. On the other hand, I think for the sake of realism that they should stay. It allows the AI to concentrate solely on land units while getting the historical ships built. I also like sinking it when I play the British! Personally I am more concerned with the realism of seeing these units launched when I do not play Germany. I would prefer to fudge a little here rather than see Germany build 0 or 3 or more Bismark class ships. Although a bit inaccurate it hardwires the Germans to the historical path and lets focus on aircraft and land units.

 

[unmerged(18218)]

I think they should come out but add some BB build events to Germany.txt. I don't trust the .ai files enough to simulate near historical builds

Interest they could be nixed and create events that gives you the ships but the problem is that Germany would get them for free when they are very expensive ships. There are several thousand ICs that this frees up for the Germans to use for something else.

 

[Kevin Mc Carthy]

Interest they could be nixed and create events that gives you the ships but the problem is that Germany would get them for free when they are very expensive ships. There are several thousand ICs that this frees up for the Germans to use for something else.

I would not endorse GIVING Germany these ships but using

type = build_division which = [div_type] value = [brig_type]

Per Havard: Builds a division of specified type and attach a brigade if specified. See the Units section for a list of valid division and brigade types (use value = none for no brigades). The division will appear in the buildcue and must be built before it can be deployed.

 

[kionas76]

several staff

Has anybody else encountered the problem with advanced asw tactics unavailable to research while all prereq. are found?
I know that i ask this again but are you going to change the doctrine prereq.for super BB because as its now you have to have a raiding doctrine if you want to build the best all-guns-non nuclear BB in the game and it isnt normal. :rofl: :wacko:

 

[MateDow]

I would not endorse GIVING Germany these ships but using

type = build_division which = [div_type] value = [brig_type]

Per Havard: Builds a division of specified type and attach a brigade if specified. See the Units section for a list of valid division and brigade types (use value = none for no brigades). The division will appear in the buildcue and must be built before it can be deployed.

The problem is that command builds the latest model of battleship. That is probably not a problem for 1936 Germany though. There are no brigades for naval units. I admit writing this really cool event for Greece to get naval vessels from the UK. Greece gets a model 4 battleship... you get the idea. Unfortunately, it gave me pre-dreadnaught battleships (CORE 0.5) with an AA brigade. Interesting effect, but back to topic. It could be a good Z-Plan event chain. Does anyone have any details of what Hitler planned?

Here is what I will put together....

Initial event for approval of the 1936 Z-Plan (A choice accept)
Lay down Bismarck? (A choice yes)
Lay down Tirpitz? (A choice yes)
Lay down destroyer flotilla? (A choice yes)


This could continue. If someone has information about the proposed schedule for the Z-Plan I would be interested. I know that the German Navy was supposed to be formidable by 1944. I would make the events dependant on Germany being at peace. The models problem is rationalized in Germany would build the largest type available. Once I have German numbers I will come up with some 'reactions' by the Allied powers.

What do all of you think? MDow

 

[MateDow]

Has anybody else encountered the problem with advanced asw tactics unavailable to research while all prereq. are found?
I know that i ask this again but are you going to change the doctrine prereq.for super BB because as its now you have to have a raiding doctrine if you want to build the best all-guns-non nuclear BB in the game and it isnt normal. :rofl: :wacko:

The battleship pre-requisite problem is easy and I have already solved it (actually I thought I had fixed it once before o). Go into the naval tech tree (make a back-up copy first) and find the post-treaty battleship (6939) and super battleship (6945). These techs should be around line 2700. Replace pre-requisite of 6617 with 6618. That will solve the battleship construction problem.

While you have your naval tech file open, go down to Advanced ASW Tactics (6978). This should be around line 3190. Replace the pre-requisite of 13401 with 13408. That will solve your ASW problem.

I hope that helps. Sorry that you have to go through this to get the techs to work. MDow

 

[MateDow]

I guess Skyo must have been sucked into playing the latest release...

He hasn't stickied this thread yet. MDow


Oops, this was supposed to be in the 0.7 release thread o

 

[EasilyConfused]

I wrote out a long summary of the data on Plan Z available from this website, but my computer crashed before I could post it. I don't want to go through the whole process of typing it out again, so I'll just link you directly.

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/zplan/index.html

The rest of the site is informative as well. I hope this helps.

 

[EasilyConfused]

The Z-Plan also called for the construction of 68 destroyers and 4 carriers.

The Hipper Class Heavy Cruisers were part of the Z-Plan. The Admiral Hipper, Blucher, and Prinz Eugene were constructed. The Seydlitz and the Lutzow were cancelled part way through construction.

On a side note I noticed some minor problems in the naval OOB. You had the Sao Paulo being recoditioned by Brazil. Historically this was never done due to its poor condition. The French battleship Ocean was still called the Jean Bart at the time (doesn't really matter). Its sister ship Paris seems to be missing for some reason. The HMS Eagle should be in refit at the start of the game it isn't readied for service again until febuary 1937.

 

[McNaughton]

The Z-Plan also called for the construction of 68 destroyers and 4 carriers.

The Hipper Class Heavy Cruisers were part of the Z-Plan. The Admiral Hipper, Blucher, and Prinz Eugene were constructed. The Seydlitz and the Lutzow were cancelled part way through construction.

On a side note I noticed some minor problems in the naval OOB. You had the Sao Paulo being recoditioned by Brazil. Historically this was never done due to its poor condition. The French battleship Ocean was still called the Jean Bart at the time (doesn't really matter). Its sister ship Paris seems to be missing for some reason. The HMS Eagle should be in refit at the start of the game it isn't readied for service again until febuary 1937.

Ocean is probably not Jean Bart for this reason, as if it was the later Jean Bart would not be completed (since its name is already existing). If the Eagle is in refit, it will be refitted as the most modern vessel (I believe).

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I'm looking at the French naval OOB right now and I found the Paris in a couple of seconds.

 

[unmerged(14249)]

One of the things that I have looked at for 0.71 is removing Bismarck and Tirpitz from Germany's construction que. I didn't remove them for 0.7 because I didn't want to deal with the feedback from the dedicated Germany players. For the sake of realism they should be removed. What do other people think?

I can help you with the Bismarck. The building contract was placed with Blohm & Voss on 16 Nov 1935 and so its construction might be said to have legally started on that date. The equivalent date for the Tirpitz was 14 June, 1936 but the government procurement decision must have been taken earlier than that and the funds earmarked then. Close enough for government work ...

Andrew

 

[kionas76]

A few notes on naval combat for CORE 0.7

Ok there are several interesting points to say but an example is always better.Imagine the following situation:1941 september USA just entered the war in the allied fraction.My(japan)has a powerfull fleet with nuclear super BB/CA/CV plus the all the other techs in the tech tree.My airforce and army have all the bonuses available in the tech tree.The idea is to see how the new CAG concept will work.Now i know that in a normal game there will be no way to have such an advanced force against the mediocre 1941 USA but if it works with such difference i will continue with more difficult settings.
Now i declare war against Allies(no alliance with Germany)and press the fog of war cheat to see where is the USA fleet so to make sure CV battle will occur.I found a good stack with atleast 7-9 capital ships and several smaller(no subs inside).So i send a task force of 2 CV units(10 CAG loaded),3 nuclear super CA,1 DDG(last model).The idea is not to engage in guns combat but instead mount a carrier based attack against a fleet whithout air cover.
1st surprise is that in order to do so i have to have my CAG's in the same area with the enemy fleet because they have to low range,this will put my CV group in the same area as well which is dangerous.Anyway i do that and launch 9 CAG with an Air General(fleet destroyer) against the enemy.2nd surprise is that CAG's because of the very low(1)surface defence suufer tremendous hits(1 completely lost and others get 1/4 of strenght and org down) in 1 attack.3rd surprise is that the moment i send the air my naval units joines combat as well and they are all lost because the enemy has a much superior(in term of heavy guns)fleet.Even more when naval combat starts CAG dont engage automatically as they had to.End result is all my fleet lost and the remaining CAG being above a sea area whithout a CV.
COMMENTS:surface defence of CAG is VERY VERY LOW,since everytime an air strike take place in an area whith your fleet as well your units will 100%engage the moment air combat occurs so if this cant change(vanilla Paradox problem)make CAG with higher range(form 270 km to much bigger)in order to attack while your CV is out of combat otherwise it will suffer heavilly.Unfortunatelly the map(with very huge sea areas in Pasific) as it is is not allowing a CV launched attack from close distance whithout sea to sea combat so make CAG have more range.
Keep in mind that whether was clear throught out the combat and the tech difference between me and the USA was HUGE.