C.O.R.E. HOI - Naval Mod

[MateDow]

Some French gunboats (who should be made into model 0) are:

Altair: displacement: 1,140 t, armament: 2 × 138mm, 2 × 75mm, and a top speed of 17 knots.

She was stricken from the French OOB right around 1936.

Arras class: displacement: 850 t, armament: 2 × 138mm/145mm, 1 × 75mm, 4 × MG, top speed 20 knots, and a crew of 203. The ships of this class where made from 1918-1919. They are the Amiens, Arras, Belfort, Calais, Coucy, Epinal, Lassigny, Les Eparges, Tahure, Vauquois and Ypres.

Too small.

Aubrieta class: displacement: 1,250 t, armament: 1 × 100mm 3 × 76mm, 2 × 47mm, top speed of 17.5 knots, it had a crew of 92. The only ship of this class Ville d'Ys.

Some Romanian minesweepers (should be model 0, or maybe should be a model 1 as both was over 2000 t, and therefore according to the London Naval Treaty, too big to be a sloop) are:

Dacia: displacement: 3,146 t (full displacement 4,505 t), her armament was 3 × 105mm, 2 × 20mm, and 200 mines. Her top speed was 14 knots. The Dacia was launched in 1907.

Regele Carol I: displacement: 2,369 t (full displacement was 3,600 t), her armament was 2 × 105mm, 2 × 20mm, and 200 mines. Her top speed was 13 knots and she had a crew of 80. She was launched in 1898.

These were converted liners. They were described in Conway's as auxilliary cruisers. They can be put in as auxilliary cruisers.

Two Romanian minelayers I don't know about are the Durostor and the Romania. I know the Durostor was 1,410 t, was launched in 1911 and a max speed of 7.5 knots. The only info I have on the Romania was she launched in 1904 and sunk in 12.05.1944 sunk in the Black Sea by Soviet aircraft. An image of the Romania is

Romania is another converted merchant vessel. At least there was one in 1918. She isn't listed as a part of the Romanian navy in 1922 for Conway's. That is the only tool that I have that mentions her.

 

[MateDow]

Base german destroyer (1000T) should ba named "Zerstörer(1918 Mob)" Design weight, armament,etc matches C.O.R.E.

My choice for the model name was the "Type 1935" torpedo boat.

Please tell me what all these small craft, which everyone is talking about, in Core. I can then provide details for Germany. For example, Germany was permitted to retain 24 Torpedo Boats (i.e. destroyers) after Versallis

The small warships that we are talking about are sloops. They are about 1500 tons with 4 small or medium caliber guns. The German ships that were incorperated for 0.7 are Bremse and Brummer.

The MBT unit is right now called "S-Boat Squadron." I am looking for a German translation of that for a better "feel" name. MDow

 

[MateDow]

I have to differ with you, as I can verify exact production details.

Good, my information is a little thin as to when individual boats were laid down and commisioned. Don't worry about differing with me. It won't be the first (or last) time I have been wrong on the forum.

The U-boats were started in lots, and it appears that each lot is counted as a complete group. I'll list the production in groups, sorted by dates. As you can see, even I was off, as there should be 36 boats (7 groups)


4 Type VII Germania U-33 thru U-36

This will be one flotilla of Medium Range subs. They were the only ones under construction on 1/1/1936.

Type VII should be available, and Type IX should wait for the Tech.

That is how it is. The Germans have the tech to build Type-VII submarines at the beginning of the game. Like I mentioned earlier, they still have to finish the design work for the Type-IX.

So you can add them to the "Build Queue", here is the 1936 figures.

1936 11 Type VIIB Germania U-45 thru U-55
8 Type IX AG Weser U-37 thru U-44

These boats are the responsibility of the player to build, or not build.

Hate playing devil's advocate, but I have all the production, stats, etc. for the Kriegsmarine, as I have been researching it for years. Hope you are finding this helpful, not annoying.

Cheers

Not a problem. This is a community effort. If people don't question things I assume that it is right. Keep up the good work. MDow

 

[Semi-Lobster]

She was stricken from the French OOB right around 1936.

My sources though say she was only decommisioned in 1940. maybe she was kept in reserve?

These were converted liners. They were described in Conway's as auxilliary cruisers. They can be put in as auxilliary cruisers.

Romania is another converted merchant vessel. At least there was one in 1918. She isn't listed as a part of the Romanian navy in 1922 for Conway's. That is the only tool that I have that mentions her.

Hmmm...that explains alot. The problem with making them auxillary cruisers though is that they where probably only converted once the war started.

 

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German Destroyers - Full details

I need to know how many destroyers are considered a group (4 or 5, I assume 5), so that numbers can be determined. As Germany was permitted to retain 26 destroyer/torpedo boats after WW1, and the game starts with 16 escorts for germany, there should be 2 destroyer flotilas in port at the start of the C.O.R.E. scenario.

Regarding in queue production, the following represents early production of ww2 class Destroyers. Note: I am using day-month-year date format

Start Commission Name

Type 1934 - (Earliest type)
15.10.1934 14.01.1937 Z1 Leberecht Maas Deutsche Werke
25.10.1934 27.02.1937 Z2 Georg Thiele
02.01.1935 08.04.1937 Z3 Max Schulz
07.01.1935 13.05.1937 Z4 Richard Beitzen

Type 1934/A
15.07.1935 29.06.1937 Z5 Paul Jakobi Deschimag
18.07.1935 02.07.1937 Z6 Theodor Riedel
07.09.1935 09.09.1937 Z7 Hermann Schoemann
14.01.1936 08.01.1938 Z8 Bruno Heinemann

23.03.1935 02.07.1938 Z9 Wolfgang Zenker Germaniawerft
01.04.1935 13.09.1938 Z10 Hans Lody
26.04.1935 06.12.1938 Z11 Bernd von Arnim
03.05.1935 04.03.1939 Z12 Erich Giese
12.10.1935 28.03.1939 Z13 Erich Koellner

30.03.1935 06.04.1938 Z14 Friedirch Ihn Bloom & Voss
30.03.1935 31.05.1938 Z15 Erich Steinbrinck
14.11.1935 28.07.1938 Z16 Friedrich Eckoldt

I am having a problem reconciling the IC and time requirements on the destroyers. In version 0.64, the amount for a 1500T (type used in queue) destroyer is 3 IC for 150 days, or 450 units.. Therefore the max out time on production should be this many days unless a 0 IC production is done (which seems unreasonable) As a compromize, I would set up premature completion of units, in order to control IC usage, and assign the following groups to "under Contruction":

1 Zerstörer gruppe Z1 1 IC Complete August 1, 1936 (50%, 225 units)
1 Zerstörer gruppe Z5 1 IC Complete January 8, 1937 (75%, 337 units)
1 Zerstörer gruppe Z9 1 IC Complete April 1, 1937 (Full 450 units)

currently C.O.R.E shows 2 groups in production one requireing 1 IC for 873 days, for a massive 873 units (2 times that needed), which is unreasonable.
I think, since everyone is adding to the navies, we shouldn't ignore Germany.

With regard to the Destroyer Tech names, I would use the following, as a balance. I have confirmed displacment changes, and possibe production dates from the Tech Tree:

Base: Zerstörer 1918 Mob
1000T: Zerstörer 1934
1500T: Zerstörer 1936A
Corvette: Zerstörer 1938B (summer of 1939, 12 ships ordered)
2000T: Zerstörer 1938A (24 ships projected for the Z-Plan)
2500T: Zerstörer 1942 (Improved 1938A design)
3000T: Spähkreuzer (Glorified Large Destroyer from Z-Plan)

Enjoy

 

[Gwalcmai]

Here are the Portuguese sloops that I have put in the game (Yes, I know that I have forgotten a lot of the accents and curly cues). MDow

Republica
Carvalho Araujo
Goncalves Zarco
Goncalo Velho
Alfonso de Albuquerque
Bartolomeu Dias
Perdo Nunes
Joao de Lisboa (to be completed 21 Sept, 1936)

MDow, the Pedro Nunes wasn't in the PMs you sent me.

 

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W/ regard to liners...

A question w/ regard to liners, transports, etc.:

These days, it's fairly common to see cruise ships flying the flags of, for example, Liberia, Panama, etc. Flags of convenience, they're called. The company that owns them is American, or Brit, or Greek, etc., but for some reason they don't fly those flags. (Why, I dunno, would love to know why. MDow, you know?)

Questions that raises:

How do we handle ships that flew flags of convenience?

How common was that pre-WW2, and when did it actually BECOME common?

 

[Gwalcmai]

Flags of convenience avoid taxes and evade some safety regulations, IIRC.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I think you should add Japanese minelayers:

Itsukushima: Displacement: 1,970 t (full displacement 2,047 t), armament: 3 × 140mm, 2 × 80mm, 2 × MG, 300 mines and 2 × 80mm. Top speed 17 knots. Crew: 235. Built in Uraga Dock in 1928. Launched in 22.05.1929 and commissioned in 12.1929. Probably should be a sloop.

Okinoshima: Displacement: 4,400 t (full 4,920 t). Armament: 4 × 140mm, 2 × 80mm, and 500 mines. Top speed of 20 knots. Built by Harima Shipbuilding in 1934, launched 15.11.1935 and commissioned in 30.09.1936. Probably should be a protected or light cruiser.

Tokiwa: Displacement: 9,240 t. Armament: 4 × 152mm, 2 × 40mm, 35 × 25mm and 300 mines. Top speed 21.3 knots. Built by Armstrong, U.K. in 01.1898, launched in 06.07.1898. Commissioned in 18.05.1899. Built as an armoured cruiser, rebuilt in as a minelayer in 1922. This ship is all over the place, take your pick!

Yaeyama: Displacement: 1,135 t (full 1,358 t). Armament: 2 × 120mm, 2 × MG, and 185 mines. Top speed, 20 knots. Crew 150. Built by Kure Arsenal in 02.08.1930, launched in 15.10.1931 and commissioned in 31.08.1932. This should be a sloop.

Katsuriki: Displacement: 1,540 t (full 2,000 t). Armament: 3 × 80mm and 150 mines. Top speed: 13 knots. Built by Kure Arsenal, launched in 05.10.1916 and commissioned in 01.1917.

Japanese gunboat:

Ataka: Displacement: 880 t (full 1,133 t). Armament: 2 × 120mm, 2 × 80mm, and 6 × MG. Top speed: 16 knots. Crew: 118. She was built by Yokohama Dock in 15.08.1921, launched in 11.04.1922, commissioned in 12.08.1923. Should be a Sloop.

Italian gunboats:

Aurora: Displacement: 1,388 t. Armament: 4 × 76mm and 2 × 57mm. Top speed 14 knots. Should be a sloop, or nothing. It's probably too lightly armed for a sloop. Commissioned in 1904.

Sebastiano Caboto: Displacement: 1,049 t. Armament: 6 × 76mm, and 4 × MG. Top speed 13 knots. Commissioned in 1913.

 

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German Post-Treaty Ships

this is partially a carry-over from the tech thread, but I wanted to make sure the German unit names were listed here:

Per research:

2000 Ton Destroyer should be "type 1938A"
Post-Treaty Light Cruiser = M-Class Cruiser
Post-Treaty Heavy Cruiser = P-Class Cruiser
Super Cruiser = O-Class Battlecruiser
Super Battleship = H-Class

Finally, I found that the best match for the "AA Light Cruiser" is:

"Type 1936C" (actually a german destroyer, but it fits the definition)

"Soon after the start of World War II it got obvious that all existing German destroyers were not adequately protected against air attacks. Since the number of light Flak guns could not increased much more, a new main armament for destroyers, capable to be used against air and sea targets was needed. In 1941 it was considered to use the new Luftwaffe 12,8 cm Flak 40 in twin mountings for a new class of destroyers. The two ships were ordered from existing designs and adapted to the new armament. They were laid down in 1942 but not completed. Four additional were ordered in 1943, none of these were started."

 

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Liners

MDow, I've sent you data on Cunard-White Star and CGT. Both Cunard and White Star did their business homework in the 20s and realized they could make more money with several 18,000-20,000 ton ships at 16 knots than a few 50,000 ton ships doing 25 knots so they ended up with a lot of those and only a handful of the prestige liners. The trick is that the former already look like a basic attack transport so maybe merchant fleets will simply have those in their oob along with a few of faster liners???

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Two Danish Patrol Ships that should be in the game as sloops are the
Hvidbjørnen: displacement: 1,050 t. Armament: 2 × 87mm, 2 × MG. Top speed 14.5 knots. Built by Orlogsvaerftet in 15.05.1928, launched in 27.12.1928, commissioned in 21.05.1929.
Ingolf: Displacement: 1,180 t. Armament: 2 × 120mm, 2 × 57mm, 2 × 20mm and 2 × 8mm. Top speed: 16.5 knots. The Ingolf was also made in Orlogsvaerftet in 30.01.1933, launched in 23.09.1933 and commissioned in 23.04.1934.

Also I REALLY think the Zmaj (Yugo minelayer) should be in the game, as I have given it's stats already, I don't need to say them again!

 

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Liners

Still researching. Status:

Italia Line - four big liners complete
Canadian Pacific Railway Company - four big liners complete
United States Line - seven liners almost done
Matson Line - four liners complete
American Republics Line - three liners not complete
American Presidents Line - Most of their liners were 10-12 thousand tons which I won't detail, but they had one big one, the President Coolidge. Still collecting data here.

 

[MateDow]

A question w/ regard to liners, transports, etc.:

These days, it's fairly common to see cruise ships flying the flags of, for example, Liberia, Panama, etc. Flags of convenience, they're called. The company that owns them is American, or Brit, or Greek, etc., but for some reason they don't fly those flags. (Why, I dunno, would love to know why. MDow, you know?)

As someone who works on a flag of convenience vessel (Panamanian flagged), I can say that is done entirely to get tax and regulatory breaks. Panama, Liberia, Vanuatu, and the Marshall Islands all flag ships in their country in return for the licensing and inspection fees. The also get fees from all of the mariners that have to get flag state licences or documents to work.

Questions that raises:

How do we handle ships that flew flags of convenience?

How common was that pre-WW2, and when did it actually BECOME common?

Flag of convienence is a fairly recent practice. Although merchant vessels have been known to change flag during a time of war (US ships became British flagged during the American Civil War), it wasn't a common business practice until after the war AFIK. I don't think that we should worry about flags of convienience. In this time it would have been more common to reflag your ship under one of the major maritime nations, and they are dealt with through convoys. MDow

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I thought the Navarra (for Spain) was in the game but upon further review I've noticed it's missing.
displacement: 4,857 t (full displacement: 6,500 t)
armament: 6 × 152mm, 4 × 88mm, 2 × 20mm
speed: 25 knots
Shipyard: Ferrol Navy Yard/Sociedad Espanola de Construcciones Navales, laid down: 31.03.1915, launched: 21.04.1920, commissioned: 06.07.1922.
She'd be a light cruiser.

 

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More Liners

Hi, Mdow, I sent you a stack of information on big liners for:

United States Lines
Matson Lines
American President Lines
Union-Castle Line
Canadian Pacific Railway Company
American Republics Line (later Moore-McCormack Line)
Svenska-Amerika Linien
Norddeutscher-Lloyd
Hamburg-Amerika
Hamburg-Sud Amerika

Some of the information did confirm that the German ships were chartered to carry German troops back from Spain after the Civil War. Wartime service was common and several of the targets, err liners, were lost to enemy action during WW2. One, the President Coolidge, was lost to "friendly fire" when it struck an American mine while going into Espiritu Santo in 1942.

 

[unmerged(24211)]

It'd be interesting to check, just for the hell of it...did any of those lines survive the war?

 

[Semi-Lobster]

more Sloops and a Minelayer!

Starting off I find it very weird how you have the HMS Bridgewater but you don't have the 8 other Bridgewater class sloops! of course all commissioned by 1936, they are the HMS':
Bideford
Dundee
Falmouth
Fowey
Milford
Rochester
Shoreham
Weston

Another class of British sloop you're missing is the Grimsby class,
displacement: 990 t (1,480 t)
armament: (variations in the armament but all had ASW).
Aberdeen: 3 × 102mm, 4 × 12.7mm
Fleetwood: 4 × 102mm, 4 × 12.7mm
ostatní: 2 × 102mm, 1 × 76.2mm, 4 × 12.7mm, 4 × 12.7mm
top speed: 16.5 knots
crew: 100

They are:
Aberdeen (launched 22.01.1936)
Deptford (completed before 1936)
Fleetwood (launched 24.03.1936)
Grimsby (completed before 1936)
Leith (completed before 1936)
Londonderry (completed before 1936)
Lowestoft (completed before 1936)
Wellington (completed before 1936)

And now for the minelayer. USS Oglala.
Displacement:3,746 t
Armament: 1 × 127mm, 4 × 40mm, 8 × 20mm
Top Speed: 14 knots
Built by William Cramp and Sons, Philadelphia. Launched in 1907 and commissioned in 07.12.1917. She was damaged in Pearl Harbour and before the war was the US' Pacific Fleet's primary minelayer regardless of the fact it was getting very old and was actually a converted civilian ship.

 

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Surviving Shipping Lines

Actually, most of the lines survived the war. The big shake-out was between 1960 and 1970 as air travel replaced sea travel as the preferred method of intercontinental travel so shipping lines needed to retrench to freight and/or emphasize cruising (ie the "Love Boat"). Matson, Moore-McCormack, and American President are still in business as freight lines. Cunard, Holland-America, and Hamburg-America still operate quite a few cruise liners.

I haven't checked out Norway or the Netherlands for their pre-war liner fleets, yet.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

More Minelayers & Sloops

Well some more Dutch Minelayers that should or should not be in the game:

Nautilus:
displacement: 800 t (full: 951 t)
armament: 2 × 76.2mm, 1 × 37mm, 2 × 12.7mm and 40-60 mines
top speed: 15 knots
Crew: 50-57
kinda small. Maybe too small.

Jan van Brakel:
displacement: 740 t (full: 995 t)
armament: 2 × 76.2mm, 1 × 37mm, 4 × 12.7mm and 60 mines.
top speed: 15.5 knots
Laid down in 23.05.1935 by Koninklijke Mij 'De Schelde', launched 08.02.1936, commissioned in 25.06.1936
Kinda small but bigger than the Nautilus.

Krakatau:
displacement: 982 t
armament: 1 × 76.2mm, 4 × 12.7mm and 150 mines.
top speed: 15.5 knots
crew: 91 - 105
weakly armed.

some more deserving Dutch minelayers are the Prins van Oranje class.
displacement: 1,291 t
armament: 2 × 76.2mm, 2 × 40mm, 2 × 12.7mm, and 150 mines.
top speed: 15 knots
crew: 121
The ships of this class where Gouden Leeuw and Prins van Oranje, both made by De Maas in 23.09.1930 and launched in 1931.

Some sloops of British India are:
HMS Cornwallis
displacement: 1,375 t
armament: 2 × 102mm, 4 × 47mm
top speed: 16.5 knots
built by William Hamilton, Great Britain and commissioned in 1917.

HMS Lawrence:
displacement: 1,210 t
armament: 2 × 102mm, 2 × 47mm, 2 × 40mm
top speed: 15 knots
built by William Beardmore, Great Britain and commissioned in 1919

HMS Clive:
displacement: 1,750 t
armament: 2 × 102mm, 2 × 47mm, 2 × 20mm
top speed: 14.5 knots
built by William Beardmore, Great Britain and commissioned in 1920.

HMS Hindustan's sister ship, the Indus was commisioned in 03.1935 and should be in the game.