MateDow said:
Well not just the UK, France, Germany and the US had a few liners (of course the UK still had the most though). Also good call on the AI.
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Well not just the UK, France, Germany and the US had a few liners (of course the UK still had the most though). Also good call on the AI.
Liners
Hmmm, the trouble is that even at 25,000 tons, it would typically take 2-4 liners to transport a division. So we have a classic design decision to give the liners an unrealistically large capacity to carry a division or group them into division-capable flotillas (but then we don't get the cool individual liner units - Georgic, Empress of Britain, Europa, Rex, Augustus, Isle d'France, etc.)
One other point after looking over some of the liners is probably a need to distinguish the transport classes:
Super-liners (eg Queen Mary, Rex, Normandie): 50,000+ tons, 25+ knots
Blue Riband Liners (eg Britannic, Mauretania, America, etc. ): 20,000-50,000 tons, 23+ knots
Cruise Liners (eg Robert Ley, Laurentic, de Grasse, etc.): Sub-23 knots (probably need to set a pace of 15-18 knots).
Hmmm, the trouble is that even at 25,000 tons, it would typically take 2-4 liners to transport a division. So we have a classic design decision to give the liners an unrealistically large capacity to carry a division or group them into division-capable flotillas (but then we don't get the cool individual liner units - Georgic, Empress of Britain, Europa, Rex, Augustus, Isle d'France, etc.)
One other point after looking over some of the liners is probably a need to distinguish the transport classes:
Super-liners (eg Queen Mary, Rex, Normandie): 50,000+ tons, 25+ knots
Blue Riband Liners (eg Britannic, Mauretania, America, etc. ): 20,000-50,000 tons, 23+ knots
Cruise Liners (eg Robert Ley, Laurentic, de Grasse, etc.): Sub-23 knots (probably need to set a pace of 15-18 knots).
Bust for v7 carrier reqs
The WIKI is down so I'll post here so I don't forget:
For v7, there is a bust on the prereqs for 'Basic Conversions'
It calls for tech 13003, which does not exist. I imagine that might cause some serious problems...
I will repost in WIKI when it's up, but here just in case my age gets to me.
The WIKI is down so I'll post here so I don't forget:
For v7, there is a bust on the prereqs for 'Basic Conversions'
It calls for tech 13003, which does not exist. I imagine that might cause some serious problems...
I will repost in WIKI when it's up, but here just in case my age gets to me.
Phil K said:For v7, there is a bust on the prereqs for 'Basic Conversions'
It calls for tech 13003, which does not exist. I imagine that might cause some serious problems...
Yeah, I found that while editing the tree. I am working on a beta version of the tech trees that fixes all of my grammer mistakes and "all" of those annoying little problems like that. There is also a mistake where you get model 7 carriers twice
o That is the next project when I finish with all of these miserable .inc files. Through Spain... MDow
Engineer said:
I can't add another unit at this stage of the design process.
I think that anything over 25000 tons could carry the 7500 people that are needed to man one division. I can't make any claims about their equipment though. With all of the furnishings removed and replaced with racks, the space that 2 or 3 people took up before conversion would hold 10 or 12. Figure that the Titanic held 1600 without crowding. I think that a division of carriage isn't unreasonable.
Is there a better lower cut-off for size than 25000 tons? A better measuring stick? I am open for suggestions. MDow
Fantastiques
One more pestersome question (sorry for being such a pest)
Will La Fantastique class be represented? If so, could they be represented as really light cruisers with really fast speed? I believe they are actually, or were actually, classified as Croiseurs Legers post war or thereabouts.
Thanks,
Richmond
One more pestersome question (sorry for being such a pest)
Will La Fantastique class be represented? If so, could they be represented as really light cruisers with really fast speed? I believe they are actually, or were actually, classified as Croiseurs Legers post war or thereabouts.
Thanks,
Richmond
Liners
It's a shame about the classes, something to keep in the file for next time, I suppose. The key points there is the greater speed and defense factor for the super-liners and the lower speed for the cruisers. Another thing about the super-liners was their ability to sustain high speed over long distances and differing sea states.
MDOW:
It looks like there were several liners in the low 20's, I'm thinking that 18,000 tons OR a peacetime passenger capacity of 1500 people might be a better break-point rather than to exclude a number of potential ships (Kungsholm 20,000, Laurentic 18,700, Gripsholm, 18,000, Degrasse, 17,700) all had peace time accomodations for at least 1500 passengers. Laurentic was converted to a troopship and torpedoed in 1940. The Windsor Castle and Arundel Castle were about 19,000 tons, but only had provision for about 1000 passengers, and the former was carrying 2700 troops when she was torpedoed and lost in 1943.
The Queen Mary was initially converted to carry 5000 troops but was eventually modified, along with the Queen Elizabeth to carry 15,000 troops per voyage. However, these were 80,000+ ton behemoths.
When you build on the HOI convention of 7500 man divisons and average capacity over the whole span of ships, then I don't see any problem with a 1 division per ship capacity.
Decommissioning: Several liners were decommissioned between 1936 and the outbreak of the war. Berengaria (USA) & Leviathan (USA) were ex-German liners provided as war reparations and retired in 1938 for safety reasons. Also in 1938 Lafayette was lost due to a catastrophic fire while in a yard for overhaul.
It's a shame about the classes, something to keep in the file for next time, I suppose. The key points there is the greater speed and defense factor for the super-liners and the lower speed for the cruisers. Another thing about the super-liners was their ability to sustain high speed over long distances and differing sea states.
MDOW:
It looks like there were several liners in the low 20's, I'm thinking that 18,000 tons OR a peacetime passenger capacity of 1500 people might be a better break-point rather than to exclude a number of potential ships (Kungsholm 20,000, Laurentic 18,700, Gripsholm, 18,000, Degrasse, 17,700) all had peace time accomodations for at least 1500 passengers. Laurentic was converted to a troopship and torpedoed in 1940. The Windsor Castle and Arundel Castle were about 19,000 tons, but only had provision for about 1000 passengers, and the former was carrying 2700 troops when she was torpedoed and lost in 1943.
The Queen Mary was initially converted to carry 5000 troops but was eventually modified, along with the Queen Elizabeth to carry 15,000 troops per voyage. However, these were 80,000+ ton behemoths.
When you build on the HOI convention of 7500 man divisons and average capacity over the whole span of ships, then I don't see any problem with a 1 division per ship capacity.
Decommissioning: Several liners were decommissioned between 1936 and the outbreak of the war. Berengaria (USA) & Leviathan (USA) were ex-German liners provided as war reparations and retired in 1938 for safety reasons. Also in 1938 Lafayette was lost due to a catastrophic fire while in a yard for overhaul.
Engineer said:
If you could e-mail the liners that should be in there, I can get them in real quick. Give me their speed, and I can get that in there for the pre-existing units. All I need to get them in there is country, vessel name, and company that ran it. They will be in the owning country's OOB with the company being the "fleet" that they operate in. That is my plan for the moment. MDow
MateDow said:
Your work is greatly appreciated and vital to CORE, Matedow. Thanks for the slavish effort you put into it.
MateDow said:
Hate to interject, but I thought I would at least give the German units that would make the definition. If there are any others, please chime in.
North German Lloyd Lines
Bremen, 51,650, (Burned out 1941)
Columbus, 32,350, (Scuttled 1939 to avoid caputure by Royal Navy)
Europa, 56,500 Tons, speed 27kn, range 5000
Gneisnau, 26,000 Tons, speed 21kn, range 9000
Potsdam, 23,500 Tons, speed 21kn, range 9000
Scarnhorst, 26,000 Tons, speed 21kn, range 9000 (Sold to Japan 1942)
Should Germany's sub allocation be detuned?
Studying the early production for U-boats, the following would better represent actual units for 1936:
1934 program: 8 boats, type I/IIA/IIB (Coastal Boats)
1935 program: 18 boats, type IIA/IIB (Coastal Boast)
10 boats, type VII (Atlantic Boats)
total 26 coastal subs, 10 atlantic subs
The problem is that type IX boats were being produced at AG Weser in 1936. How can this be reconciled against the tech tree for sub development.? or can it.
Studying the early production for U-boats, the following would better represent actual units for 1936:
1934 program: 8 boats, type I/IIA/IIB (Coastal Boats)
1935 program: 18 boats, type IIA/IIB (Coastal Boast)
10 boats, type VII (Atlantic Boats)
total 26 coastal subs, 10 atlantic subs
The problem is that type IX boats were being produced at AG Weser in 1936. How can this be reconciled against the tech tree for sub development.? or can it.
junghans said:
My count was the six Type IIA boats, the two Type IA boats, and guessed at 6 Type IIB boats. As far as I can tell, there were no Type VII or Type IX boats being built on 1 Jan, 1936. I gave the Germans two flotillas (10 boats) of Basic Short Range submarines.
The only tech that they have to research to build Basic Long Range submarines (Type IXA) is the tech that gives them that class. It will take 180 days and 2 IC. After that, they can build them to their heart's content. Does that answer your question? MDow
junghans said:
Thank you for the information. Is that all of the liners that Germany owned, or just the ones from that company? I will start adding these into the OOB for Germany tonight. MDow
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123377
Here is a thread I have on Portugese sloops, I hope it can help.
Here is a thread I have on Portugese sloops, I hope it can help.
Semi-Lobster said:
Here are the Portuguese sloops that I have put in the game (Yes, I know that I have forgotten a lot of the accents and curly cues). MDow
Republica
Carvalho Araujo
Goncalves Zarco
Goncalo Velho
Alfonso de Albuquerque
Bartolomeu Dias
Perdo Nunes
Joao de Lisboa (to be completed 21 Sept, 1936)
I have to differ with you, as I can verify exact production details. The U-boats were started in lots, and it appears that each lot is counted as a complete group. Further, these were not old WW1 boats., Germany secretly developed new sub technology building new subs for another country before it started it's new program. This technology was ready in 1934. Therefore germany SHOULD start with much more advanced tech here than the other countries, as it was historical. With reference to the actual boats, it appears you are only quoting production from AG Wesser in Bremen. The MAIN production, pre-war, was at Deutchwerke and Germania (both in Kiel). I'll list the production in groups, sorted by dates. As you can see, even I was off, as there should be 36 boats (7 groups)
1934 2 Type IA AG Weser U-25 thru U-26
6 Type IIB Germania U-7 thru U-12
1935 6 Type IIA Deutchwerke U-1 thru U-6
4 Type IIB Deutchwerke U-13 thru U-16
8 Type IIB Germania U-17 thru U-24
6 Type II AG Weser U-27 thru U-32
4 Type VII Germania U-33 thru U-36
As you can see, 36 boat (7 groups), not two. Please adjust. I would say that the HOI version puts the Costals in Kiel, and the Atlantics in Wilhelmshavan. These were all being used as training boats, to prepare for war.
Type VII should be available, and Type IX should wait for the Tech. So you can add them to the "Build Queue", here is the 1936 figures.
1936 11 Type VIIB Germania U-45 thru U-55
8 Type IX AG Weser U-37 thru U-44
Therefore, I would put an additional 2 groups of mid range boats in queue, and require the tech for IX, thus completing the first IX boats by before 1937
Improved boats start coming out in 1937, as shown below, so do your techs permit improved boats being available? Production below.
1937 8 Type IIC Deuchwerke U-56 thru U-63 (Advanced)
4 Type IXB AG Weser U-64 thru U-68
1938 4 Type VIIC Germania U-69 thru U-72 (Advanced)
8 Type VIIC Germanic U-93 thru U-98 (Advanced)
8 Type IXB AG Weser U103 thru U110
In truth, it's really hard to find the definition of an "Advanced" coastal. The Type XXIII (Closed cycle Coastal) was just a byproduct of XXI production, built at shipyards that were not committed to type XXI.
Hate playing devil's advocate, but I have all the production, stats, etc. for the Kriegsmarine, as I have been researching it for years. Hope you are finding this helpful, not annoying.
Cheers
Some French gunboats (who should be made into model 0) are:
Altair: displacement: 1,140 t, armament: 2 × 138mm, 2 × 75mm, and a top speed of 17 knots.
Arras class: displacement: 850 t, armament: 2 × 138mm/145mm, 1 × 75mm, 4 × MG, top speed 20 knots, and a crew of 203. The ships of this class where made from 1918-1919. They are the Amiens, Arras, Belfort, Calais, Coucy, Epinal, Lassigny, Les Eparges, Tahure, Vauquois and Ypres.
Aubrieta class: displacement: 1,250 t, armament: 1 × 100mm 3 × 76mm, 2 × 47mm, top speed of 17.5 knots, it had a crew of 92. The only ship of this class Ville d'Ys.
Some Romanian minesweepers (should be model 0, or maybe should be a model 1 as both was over 2000 t, and therefore according to the London Naval Treaty, too big to be a sloop) are:
Dacia: displacement: 3,146 t (full displacement 4,505 t), her armament was 3 × 105mm, 2 × 20mm, and 200 mines. Her top speed was 14 knots. The Dacia was launched in 1907.
Regele Carol I: displacement: 2,369 t (full displacement was 3,600 t), her armament was 2 × 105mm, 2 × 20mm, and 200 mines. Her top speed was 13 knots and she had a crew of 80. She was launched in 1898.
Two Romanian minelayers I don't know about are the Durostor and the Romania. I know the Durostor was 1,410 t, was launched in 1911 and a max speed of 7.5 knots. The only info I have on the Romania was she launched in 1904 and sunk in 12.05.1944 sunk in the Black Sea by Soviet aircraft. An image of the Romania is here.
Altair: displacement: 1,140 t, armament: 2 × 138mm, 2 × 75mm, and a top speed of 17 knots.
Arras class: displacement: 850 t, armament: 2 × 138mm/145mm, 1 × 75mm, 4 × MG, top speed 20 knots, and a crew of 203. The ships of this class where made from 1918-1919. They are the Amiens, Arras, Belfort, Calais, Coucy, Epinal, Lassigny, Les Eparges, Tahure, Vauquois and Ypres.
Aubrieta class: displacement: 1,250 t, armament: 1 × 100mm 3 × 76mm, 2 × 47mm, top speed of 17.5 knots, it had a crew of 92. The only ship of this class Ville d'Ys.
Some Romanian minesweepers (should be model 0, or maybe should be a model 1 as both was over 2000 t, and therefore according to the London Naval Treaty, too big to be a sloop) are:
Dacia: displacement: 3,146 t (full displacement 4,505 t), her armament was 3 × 105mm, 2 × 20mm, and 200 mines. Her top speed was 14 knots. The Dacia was launched in 1907.
Regele Carol I: displacement: 2,369 t (full displacement was 3,600 t), her armament was 2 × 105mm, 2 × 20mm, and 200 mines. Her top speed was 13 knots and she had a crew of 80. She was launched in 1898.
Two Romanian minelayers I don't know about are the Durostor and the Romania. I know the Durostor was 1,410 t, was launched in 1911 and a max speed of 7.5 knots. The only info I have on the Romania was she launched in 1904 and sunk in 12.05.1944 sunk in the Black Sea by Soviet aircraft. An image of the Romania is here.
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More German Naval corrections
Base german destroyer (1000T) should ba named "Zerstörer(1918 Mob)" Design weight, armament,etc matches C.O.R.E.
Please tell me what all these small craft, which everyone is talking about, in Core. I can then provide details for Germany. For example, Germany was permitted to retain 24 Torpedo Boats (i.e. destroyers) after Versallis
Base german destroyer (1000T) should ba named "Zerstörer(1918 Mob)" Design weight, armament,etc matches C.O.R.E.
Please tell me what all these small craft, which everyone is talking about, in Core. I can then provide details for Germany. For example, Germany was permitted to retain 24 Torpedo Boats (i.e. destroyers) after Versallis