C.O.R.E. HOI - Naval Mod

[MateDow]

The cruiser/Minelayers that could go ultra-fast. Are they represented in game by a separate class?

Richmond

They are lumped in with the small cruiser sized warships as sloops. Most of the fast minelayers weren't all that heavily armed and there isn't any way to represent mine warfare in the game. I have been looking at them on a case by case basis as I add the sloops into the data.

I really haven't seen any data that they were faster than a standard cruiser. The main differences were the hull shape and the lack of armament to make room for mine rails. MDow

 

[MateDow]

Navies do not like mines, because they are so effective and obviate the need for capital ships. After the war, U.S. data on how successful the mining campaign was off Japan in 1945 was suppressed. None of your historical Navy ministers would likely continence the building of very many minesweepers/minelayers.

The difficulty with mines is power projection. They are effective at littorial warfare (coastal warfare) but blue water is a different matter. You can't use mines for most tactical applications. Even in fairly shallow water like the Persian Gulf mines have been of limited effectiveness. They damaged two warships during the first Iraq War, but didn't prevent the US Navy from operating where they wished.

The US used mines during the Vietnam War but was still unable to prevent the resupply of North Vietnam by ships.

The Argentines mined the straight between the main Falkland Islands (Malvinas) but were still unable to prevent the Royal Navy from operating there and conducting a sucessful amphibious operation.

These are all post war operations that were conducted in an enviroment where there were modern mines which were more technologically advanced than any used during World War 2. Mines play a role in modern combat, but they do not make the surface warship obsolete. The difficulty that mine warfare vessels (minelayers and minesweepers) have suffered in getting funding is that mine warfare is invisible. You don't commit funding until there is a need like a war. MDow

 

[Semi-Lobster]

The Mogamis where top heavy. The Mogami and Mikuma actually had to withdrawn for modification. By 'Pocket Battleship' I mean't it was basically the same idea as the German equivalent but obviously more lightly armed. Maybe you can make it a Pocket Battleship with like -1 or -2 attack or something. Or keep 'em the way they are.
The Kasuga in 18.07.1945 sunk in Yokosuka by American aircraft. The Yakumo was only decommisioned in 01.10.1945. Both of these ships where by then, training vessels.

I'm a bit confused, you sai you left out the Langley and the Chitose but you say the Langely is still in the game? Huh?

Also any chance of the Swedish (how did Paradox miss this one! ) Clas Fleming minelaying cruiser being in C.O.R.E.?

 

[MateDow]

I'm just curious? Will there be a new class of cruiser to represent the many auxillary cruisers pressed into service by many nations during the war? The most famous being the Kormoran of the Kriegsmarine which sunk the cruiser HMAS Sydney (although she was destroyed herself). I'd also like to know how C.O.R.E. 0.7 will represent minelayers (not sweepers, they are usually mucch lighter).

Yes they will be in the game. They will be primarily a human only unit. Their model number is low so the AI won't abuse them. For MP games they will be nice because they will look like a nice innocent merchant ship ( ) when a small unit approaches... wham.

I personally like the Atlantis as a raider. MDow

 

[MateDow]

The Polish Navy in HoI should have the Gryf in the build queue as a protected cruiser.

She will be in 0.7 as a sloop under construction. MDow

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Yes they will be in the game. They will be primarily a human only unit. Their model number is low so the AI won't abuse them. For MP games they will be nice because they will look like a nice innocent merchant ship ( ) when a small unit approaches... wham.

I personally like the Atlantis as a raider. MDow

Ooooh! Sneaky! !

 

[MateDow]

The Mogamis where top heavy. The Mogami and Mikuma actually had to withdrawn for modification. By 'Pocket Battleship' I mean't it was basically the same idea as the German equivalent but obviously more lightly armed. Maybe you can make it a Pocket Battleship with like -1 or -2 attack or something. Or keep 'em the way they are.

The are going to be in there as Treaty Light Cruisers. 152mm guns, very little armor protection, and a 10,000 ton displacement puts them in that category.

Too bad we can't write an event that will convert them to Treaty Heavy Cruisers later. (There is NO way that an event like that can be written)

The Kasuga in 18.07.1945 sunk in Yokosuka by American aircraft. The Yakumo was only decommisioned in 01.10.1945. Both of these ships where by then, training vessels.

They will be added in. I will look at their statistics and work them in.

I'm a bit confused, you sai you left out the Langley and the Chitose but you say the Langely is still in the game? Huh?

o o o

The single vessel Langley is not in the game. She was being used as a seaplane tender with the US Asiatic Fleet.

They class of carriers which the vessel Langley represents is in the game. The name "Langley-class" is there to give a mental image for the design of the basic conversion type of carrier.

I hope that clears things up.

Also any chance of the Swedish (how did Paradox miss this one! ) Clas Fleming minelaying cruiser being in C.O.R.E.?

I haven't gotten to Sweeden yet, but my guess is the infamous sloop type. MDow

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Well if you want any info on the Clas Fleming here it is:
It's dispacement was only 1,850 t (the Swedes still considered it a cruiser though). It's armament 4 × 127mm, 3 × 40mm, 3 × 25mm, 200 mines. It's top speed is 20.3 knots. It's shipyard is Finnboda, Stockholm, Sweden, launched in 14.12.1912 and commisioned in 05.1914. It's crew was 160.

 

[Laffertytig]

how long u reckon till the next update?

 

[Semi-Lobster]

The Mogami wasn't a light cruiser. It's main armament was actually 10 × 203mm and 8 × 127mm. It's full displacement was 15,060 t. It's armour was 25-102mm on the sides, 32-57mmon the deck, 76-102mm on the barbettes, 25mm on the turrets and 140mm on the magazine.

 

[Gwalcmai]

I will double check. It could be as simple as a different translation for the book that I use. It has happened before with Portuguese names.

Actually, it's still happening with portuguese names. The sloop "Afonso de Albuquerque" is still called "Alfonso de Albuquerque" in the portuguese inc file.

 

[McNaughton]

The Mogami wasn't a light cruiser. It's main armament was actually 10 × 203mm and 8 × 127mm. It's full displacement was 15,060 t. It's armour was 25-102mm on the sides, 32-57mmon the deck, 76-102mm on the barbettes, 25mm on the turrets and 140mm on the magazine.

In 1936 the Mogami class was armed with 15x 155mm, but they were designed to be quickly upgraded to 10x 203mm (done in the late 30's). Armour and protection do not determine a light from a heavy cruiser. Most light cruisers built in the late 1930's were better protected than most heavy cruisers (because Heavy Cruisers were built primarily in the late 1920's/early 1930's). Displacement also does not determine ship class. Most heavy cruisers were at the displacement of 10 000t, same with light cruisers, due primarily to treaty limitations.

Light cruisers were primarily defined by gun size. They actually could be larger, better protected, and have a greater weight of fire than heavy cruisers.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Well I was talking about it's armament as of 1936. I know many heavy cruisers where made in the 20's. Hopefully C.O.R.E. 0.7 will have a 'heavy cruiser' class of ship. I found it odd that there is a light cruiser, then treaty light cruiser, then a treaty heavy cruiser. Many of heavy cruisers where commissioned before the London Naval Treaty.

By 'Pocket Battleship' I'm just saying what my sources say. Another Excerpt from the Encyclopedia of Ships:
The four Japanese light cruisers of the Mogami class were in effect 'mini-battleships', designed to mount the heaviest possible armament on the restricted tonnage set by the London Naval Treaty of 1930. They featured triple gun turrets, and, like Germany's 'pocket-battleships', their hulls where electrically welded to save weight. At an early stage in the trials of the first two ships, the Mogami and Mikuma, they where found to be top-heavy and had to be withdrawn for modification. Launched on 14 March 1934, Mogami took part in the Battle of Midway in June 1942, where she was severely damaged by carrier aircraft from the USS Yorktown. After a lengthy period of reconstruction, she was returned to service in 1943, having been fitted with a flight deck on which it was intended to carry 11 seaplanes. Mogami was sunk by air attack in the Battle of Surigao Strait on 25 October 1944. None of the Ships of the Mogami class survived the war.

 

[Dibo]

She will be in 0.7 as a sloop under construction. MDow

Gryf was actually a minelayer, although with an armament and displacement of a destroyer leader.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Gryf was actually a minelayer, although with an armament and displacement of a destroyer leader.

I've already mentioned this. She was an underfunded ship that was mean't to serve as a minelayer, training ship and state yacht. She was overgunned, and had too small an area allocated for her machinery as her displacement was restricted owing to a shortage of available funds. Gryf was the biggest ship of Polish pre-war Navy.
I assume that if she had been better funded and had one designated role she could have easily become a light cruiser, with better machinery and might have escaped Poland to the UK.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I think Greece needs another destroyer flotilla. Their 1 destroyer flotilla apparently contains 13 torpedo boats, 8 destroyers, 2 MTB's and 8 minelayers.

 

[unmerged(10168)]

But shouldn't she be under cruisers?

Perhaps just make her/them expensive to build or maintain. The Abdiel class could go at 40+ kts and was armed with two to four twin six inch turrets.

Richmond

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Richmond 516: I jumped the gun there a bit. The Pluton was a cruiser/minelayer, serving dual roles. Infact it was her own mines that sank her after one exploded in 1939.


I've been thinking, we can't just have one class of sloop, some where very good and modern and some quite frankly where awful.
Yes, minelayers should get like a small attack increase over other light cruisers but be more expensive to maintain. After all the Abdiel class of british minelayers (the Latona, Welshman, Abdiel and Manxman) had a full displacement of 3,415 t. and an armament of 6 × 120mm, 4 × 40mm, 8 × 12.7mm and actually only carried 156 mines. Her half sisters the Ariadne and Apollo who had a full displacement of 3,475 t and had a lighter armament of 4 × 102mm, 4 × 40mm, 4 × 20mm, and 156 mines.

Other british cruiser/minelayers where the HMS Adventure who had a displacement of 6,470 t (1,900 t more at full), an armament of 4 × 120mm, 4 × 40mm, 8 × 12.7mm, 10 × 7.7mm and 280-340 mines. She had a top speed of 40 knots (as far as I can tell).

Some British sloops of the Flower class where the HMS Cornflower, HMS Foxglove, HMS Laburum, HMS Lupin and HMS Rosemary. The Foxglove and the Laburum where 1,325 t and in general had a very dinky little armament (2 × 76.2mm, 2 × 47mm (AA)). The Cornflower, Lupin and Rosemary on the other hand where 1,440 t, 2 × 120mm, 2 × 47mm (AA) and could go 17 knots. I'll stop there with the sloops as there are to many of them in the Royal Navy. Maybe more later.

The HMS Dunedin and HMS Diomede of the D Class where two light cruisers who's sisters ships where the Danae, Delhi, Durban, Dragon, Despatch and Dauntless (I assume you see a pattern in the naming! ), they should be model 3 like her sisters.

The HMS Exter of the York class should not be in development of the UK as it was laid down in 01.08.1928, launched in 18.07.1929, and commisioned in 23.06.1931.

The HMS Achilles and HMS Neptune of the Leander Class are also missing, they like their sisters who are in the game, should be a model 4.

 

[unmerged(10168)]

Abdiels use

From what I've read most of these CL/ML types were mainly used in their cruiser roles or as ultra fast transports. The Welshman was legendary for her high speed convoy runs to Malta. Emile Bertin hunted the Graf Spee and served in Norway. If minelaying cannot reasonably come into the picture shouldn't they just be ordinary warships (just ultra fast?)

Thanks,
Richmond

 

[unmerged(10168)]

By the way

I haven't actually played Turkey but is there some kind of 'safety valve' to prevent the Turks from building another Yavus? Realistically there were no other Yavus class BC's (they were at the bottom of Scapa Flow - unless prewar Britain wants to raise one and give it to the Turks/or Germany gives them their secret shipbuilders plans) in 1936. Just wondering about this possibility.

Richmond