C.O.R.E. HOI - Naval Mod

[Semi-Lobster]

I don't think it's possible to remove a specific unit from the game, though. Maybe there could be an event that explained the situation and gave the resources without any ships being present? (some ships of no military value have just been scrapped, here, have some steel).

The random "boiler explosion" event, would that be generic (any country getting it)? If so, the event popping up for Switzerland would sound really strange.

You can't remove units and such with an event, that's why there's no Pearl Harbour event where a bunch of ships get damaged or destroyed all of sudden.
A boiler explosion event could be nice....foc course the country would need to have access to a sea zone....and ships and such.

The Dalmacija really shouldn't be an armoured cruiser. It's main armament where six 84mm guns, that's hardly armoured cruiser armament. At best I would call it a protected cruiser, and even that's pushing it a bit. If that's a protected or armoured cruiser might aswell consider the Zmaj minelayer a sloop or something. It was armed with two 84mms. Could carry 10 seaplanes, top speed of 15 knots and had a displacement of 1,870 t.
The Italians did NOT scrap the Dalmacija. She was captured and rename Cattaro. When the Italians surrendered to the Allies, the Cattaro was captured at Pola and given to Herzegovina (as far as I can tell, maybe Bosnia....my knowledge on the Balkans isn't very good) and renamed Znaim. Later that year she was given back to the Germans and renamed Niobe. Three days later she was sunk by two British MTBs.

As far as I can tell only the Hrabri (a sub) and the Četnik (an MTB) where the only ships of Yugoslavia ever scrapped by the Italians. From what I can tell the rest where either sunk or taken by the Germans after the Italian capitualtion.

 

[MateDow]

The fact that the ships didn't have a model = # was what confused me. Will these new class of coastal battleship, will they be able to defeat old pre-dreadnought battleships like the Libertad or Independencia? What will their attack and defence be?

They shouldn't be able to defeat a pre-dreadnaught battleship.

The coast defense battleship will have an attack rating of 8 and a defense rating of 10. A pre-dreadnaught battleship has ratings of 12 and 12. That is without modifiers for technology. An American coast defense battleship (Ozark-class Monitor) with the latest radar and fire control gear will probably be a good match for a less modified pre-dreadnaught.

The coast defense battleship is representitive of small battleships like the Norweigen Norse-class and Danish Niels Iuel-class battleships. With their small main battery guns they wouldn't be a match for the Greek pre-dreadnaughts. MDow

 

[Semi-Lobster]

ok! That makes sense! Thanks!

 

[MateDow]

The Sloops HMAS Swan and HMAS Yarra should also be in C.O.R.E. Yarra was already launched and commisioned by the start of the game and the Swan was commisioned in 21.01.1937. The sloops where 1060 t and was armed with three 102mm guns.

I don't think that they will be included as cruiser sized sloops. The British Navy has two different types of sloops that I have looked at. They have the 3000+ ton colonial sloops armed with four or more 4" guns. Then there are the small escort sloops that are around 1000 tons.

I might incorperate the small Australian sloops as a flotilla of 1000 ton destroyers with a slow speed.

I don't know of a good way to handle the transfers of cruisers from the UK. I don't want to add them to the Australian OOB (they weren't there). There isn't a way to make an event that will transfer specific units. It is impossible. The Australian fleet is accurate for 1936. MDow

 

[MateDow]

The Yugoslavian Navy is missing a cruiser. The Dalmacia should be a model 0 cruiser. It was 2,960 t at full displacement. It was armed with 6 × 84mm, 4 × 47mm and 2 × MG. It had a complement of 330. It's top speed was 20 knots. Laid down in 1898 by AG Weser, launched 1899 and was commisioned in 1924.

She was caught in that small range of ships that I was unable to classify in 0.6. In 0.7 I have her classified as a sloop (warship about 2500 tons with a small main battery). She seems to fit there pretty well.

EDIT: Woops I miss read, the Emile Bertin was a light cruiser...

Speaking of French ships, I've noticed your missing the Emile Bertin, it's displacement was 5886 t standard (8480 t full displacement). It's armaments where nine 152mm's, four 89mm AA's, and six 550mm TT's. It's top speed was 34 knots and it's deck and magazine protection was 25mm. She was laid down in 18.08.1931, launched in 09.05.1933 and commisioned in 28.01.1934.
Also you are missing the Pluton light cruiser for France. It's displacement was 4,850 t and it's armament was 4 × 139mm, 4 × 75mm, 2 × 37mm, 12 × 13.2mm. It's top speed was 30 knots. Laid down in 16.04.1928, launched in 10.04.1929 and commisioned in 10.04.1931.
Lastly France is missing the Algérie heavy cruiser. It's full displacement was 13,900 t and was armed with 8 × 203mm, 12 × 100mm, 8 × 37mm 16 × 13.2mm, 6 × TT 550mm. It's top speed was 32 knots. It had side armour of 110mm, deck armour of 80mm, turret armour of 100mm and conning tower armour of 100mm. It was laid down in 19.03.1931, launched in 21.05.1932 and commisioned in 15.09.1934.

France is one of the countries that is getting a complete overhaul over the next couple of weeks. I will remember them as I am doing the research. I will try and copy you some of the naval files as I complete them for accuracy checking.

I really think the Bearn should be a model 1 carrier, it wasn't that bad. There where worse ones, like the Commandante Teste which C.O.R.E. should also have, THAT should be a model 0.

Well, she isn't an Escort Carrier. The choice would probably be a small fleet carrier (Model 4) with a slower speed (she only went 21 knots) or keep her as a conversion.

I will probably keep her as a conversion. That puts her in the same class as the British Eagle, Japanese Hosho, and US Langley. I think that she fits in that company fairly well in terms of capability. MDow

 

[Semi-Lobster]

The idea of naming a destroyer flotilla after one sloop is a very good idea actually. That way light sloops can be represented accurately in the game.
I have much more in-depth info on these ships and others of course.
I really believe the Commandante Teste should be in the game though as the lowest class of carrier.
Also thank you for the files which I hope to read soon, I hope I can be of help to C.O.R.E.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I have been looking through info on the Imperial Japanese Navy.
First off Hosho should NOT be a model 1 carrier, it should be a 0. It was only capable of carrying 21-26 aircraft.

The Mogami class cruisers (Mogami, Mikuma, Suzuya, Kumano) where designed to be similiar to the German 'pocket battleships'. Their design was to mount the heaviest armament possible since the London Naval Treaty. Like the German pocket battleships they where electrically welded to save weight.

The Adzuma is not named correctly, it was called Azuma.

The Kasuga was an armoured cruiser that is missing (unless you left it out, it by 1936 was a training ship, it served in the Russo-Japanese war). It's displacement 7,628 t; it's armament was 1 × 254mm, 2 × 203mm, 4 × 152mm, 4 × 76mm, 4 × TT 457mm and it's top speed was 20 knots. It was laid down in 10.03.1902 by Ansaldo, Italy, launched in 22.10.1902 and commisioned in 07.01.1904. Her sister ships Nisshin was expended as a target in 1936.

Another possible ship you may add is the Yakumo which was also a turn of the century armoured cruiser still in service with the IJN as training ship.

An aircraft carrier (should be made a model 0) is the Chitose,
Length : 192.5m
Width : 18.8m
Draft : 7.2m
Displacement : 11,023t
Main Engine : All Geared Turbin X 2, Diesel X 2, Twin Shaft (56,800hp)
Max Speed : 29Kt
Armament : 127mm Dual High Angled Gun X 2, 25mm Dual Machine Gun X 6
Equipment : Seaplane X 24
Crew : 785

I do not know if this is here stats as a seaplane tender or if this is when she was converted to a light aircraft carrier. She had a sister ship, the Chiyoda but she was laid down after 1936.

More ships to come (mostly more auxillary aircraft tenders/carriers)

 

[unmerged(24211)]

Nuclear-powered ships?

Could we consider yanking these?

For the US, the first nuclear-powered ship (USS Nautilus) wasn't even laid down til 14 June 1952. (http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nautilus_(SSN-571)) (IIRC, the Nautilus was the first nuclear-powered ship ever, too.) Given that the game's timeframe is 1936-1948, it would be rather out of our timeframe, I think. (Maybe not for a cold-war mod, however...)

John

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Could we consider yanking these?

For the US, the first nuclear-powered ship (USS Nautilus) wasn't even laid down til 14 June 1952. (http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nautilus_(SSN-571)) (IIRC, the Nautilus was the first nuclear-powered ship ever, too.) Given that the game's timeframe is 1936-1948, it would be rather out of our timeframe, I think. (Maybe not for a cold-war mod, however...)

John

Still, the game is not direct representation of the reality, so I can imagine, that first nuclear subs could be build earlier.

I understand that the problem is that with the current tech system it's too easy to get them too soon - that will be corrected in CORE 0.7.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

There was another Nautilus (another sub) launched on March 15 1930, it was of the V-Class, the other subs being the Argonaut and the Narwhal. I think this may be the ship you are referring to.

On another not, what seems to be the problem? Individual subs (even France's huge 'corsair subs' like the Surcouf) are not represented in the game. Rather they are shown as being in a small flotilla

 

[unmerged(10168)]

Minelayers

During the interwar period Britain, France and Germany notably built ultra-fast minelayers including the famous Welshman and Manxman and the Emile Bertin and Pluton. I was wondering, would it be possible to simulate minefields by making these ships reduce the ORG of the enemy if they are fighting with them? I mean they should do something and minefields were a big part of the war (Churchill's mining of Norwegian waters was a prelude to the Norwegian campaign and brought the British and German fleets into contact before the Germans had planned).

Richmond

 

[Pkunzipper]

IMHO minelayers and minesweepers are yet abstracted in the destryers flottillas... I think there is no need to add other 30-40 ships per major country!

 

[unmerged(10168)]

I meant the big ones

The cruiser/Minelayers that could go ultra-fast. Are they represented in game by a separate class?

Richmond

 

[Semi-Lobster]

During the interwar period Britain, France and Germany notably built ultra-fast minelayers including the famous Welshman and Manxman and the Emile Bertin and Pluton. I was wondering, would it be possible to simulate minefields by making these ships reduce the ORG of the enemy if they are fighting with them? I mean they should do something and minefields were a big part of the war (Churchill's mining of Norwegian waters was a prelude to the Norwegian campaign and brought the British and German fleets into contact before the Germans had planned).

Richmond

The Emile Bertin was NOT a minelayer. It was a light cruiser. It didn't even carry any mines. It's displacement was 8,480 t and it's armament was 9 x 152mm, 8 x 76mm, 12 x 13.2mm, 6 x TT 550mm. It's top speed was 34 knots. It has 20mm of armour on it's deck, 30mm on the magazine and 20mm on the tower. She also had a compliment of 570 - 705.

The Pluton did carry around 290 mines but it's main purpose was use as a light cruiser. It was armed with 4 x 139mm, 4 x 75mm, 2 x 37mm, 12 x 13.2mm.
Her displacement was 4,850 t. I stated this before. These ships where NOT minelayers although they could carry out minelaying operations.

 

[markpalm1]

During the interwar period Britain, France and Germany notably built ultra-fast minelayers including the famous Welshman and Manxman and the Emile Bertin and Pluton. I was wondering, would it be possible to simulate minefields by making these ships reduce the ORG of the enemy if they are fighting with them? I mean they should do something and minefields were a big part of the war (Churchill's mining of Norwegian waters was a prelude to the Norwegian campaign and brought the British and German fleets into contact before the Germans had planned).
Richmond

Navies do not like mines, because they are so effective and obviate the need for capital ships. After the war, U.S. data on how successful the mining campaign was off Japan in 1945 was suppressed. None of your historical Navy ministers would likely continence the building of very many minesweepers/minelayers.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I'm just curious? Will there be a new class of cruiser to represent the many auxillary cruisers pressed into service by many nations during the war? The most famous being the Kormoran of the Kriegsmarine which sunk the cruiser HMAS Sydney (although she was destroyed herself). I'd also like to know how C.O.R.E. 0.7 will represent minelayers (not sweepers, they are usually mucch lighter).

Richmond516, for some actual French minelayers there where the Castor and Pollux.
The Castor was commisioned in 1917,had a displacement of 3,150 t, was armed with 4 × 100mm, 2 × 37mm, 368 mines and had a max speed of 14.5 knots.
The Pollux was also commisioned in 1917 but was lighter, with a displacement of 2,460 t and the same top speed as the Castor. It was armed exactly the same as the Castor but only could carry 234 mines.

 

[Pkunzipper]

I'm just curious? Will there be a new class of cruiser to represent the many auxillary cruisers pressed into service by many nations during the war? The most famous being the Kormoran of the Kriegsmarine which sunk the cruiser HMAS Sydney (although she was destroyed herself). I'd also like to know how C.O.R.E. 0.7 will represent minelayers (not sweepers, they are usually mucch lighter).

With HOI engine the only system mine can be implemented is giving more NA to destroyers flottillas.

About your first question: Yes, in 0.7 there will be a new class of cruisers called "Auxiliary Cruiser"!

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Thank you for your response! Too bad you can't add a 'brigade' to naval units like in Victoria.

The Polish Navy in HoI should have the Gryf in the build queue as a protected cruiser.

Excerpt From 'The Encyclopedia of Ships' from Silverdale Books:
The Gryf was an unsuccessful attempt to combine three different functions - those of minelayer, training ship, and state yacht - in one ship. To make matters worse she was under funded, and undersize as a result, though she retained her full battery as designed. Built in France by Augustin-Normand, Gryf was delivered to the Polish Navy in 1938. On 1 September 1939 she was sunk, in a floating drydock, to act as a defensive battery at Hela. She was destroyed in a German air attack two days later.

The Gryf was laid down 14.11.1934, launched in 29.11.1936 and commisioned in 27.02.1938
The Gryf's displacement was 2250 t, an armament of six 120mm, four 40mm, four 13.2mm MG, 600 mines and had a top speed of 20 knots. It's complement was 205.

 

[MateDow]

There was another Nautilus (another sub) launched on March 15 1930, it was of the V-Class, the other subs being the Argonaut and the Narwhal. I think this may be the ship you are referring to.

On another not, what seems to be the problem? Individual subs (even France's huge 'corsair subs' like the Surcouf) are not represented in the game. Rather they are shown as being in a small flotilla

The Surcouf is not going to be in the game as an individual ship anymore. The French will get a flotilla of Cruiser Subs to represent the four(?) large submarines that they built between the wars.

The nuclear ships and subs are in there for someone that wants to focus on naval matters entirely. It will be very difficult to get them before the end of a normal game. If you do get the technology, I am not sure how much time that you would actually get to build one. There are a lot of people that use the endless time mod, and complain that they run out of tech to research. This gives those people a little bit more to play with without having the development of an entire Cold War mod (although there is one in the works). MDow

 

[MateDow]

I have been looking through info on the Imperial Japanese Navy.
First off Hosho should NOT be a model 1 carrier, it should be a 0. It was only capable of carrying 21-26 aircraft.

That will be fixed.

The Mogami class cruisers (Mogami, Mikuma, Suzuya, Kumano) where designed to be similiar to the German 'pocket battleships'. Their design was to mount the heaviest armament possible since the London Naval Treaty. Like the German pocket battleships they where electrically welded to save weight.

Actually, they are very similar to the US Brooklyn-class light cruisers. Both classes mounted 15 152mm (6 inch) guns in five turrets. They both displaced around 10,000 tons. The Mogami-class light cruisers suffered from stability problems from the distribution of weight which resulted in delays for the last two ships of the class. I wouldn't consider them pocket battleships though.

The Adzuma is not named correctly, it was called Azuma.

I will double check. It could be as simple as a different translation for the book that I use. It has happened before with Portuguese names.

The Kasuga was an armoured cruiser that is missing (unless you left it out, it by 1936 was a training ship, it served in the Russo-Japanese war). It's displacement 7,628 t; it's armament was 1 × 254mm, 2 × 203mm, 4 × 152mm, 4 × 76mm, 4 × TT 457mm and it's top speed was 20 knots. It was laid down in 10.03.1902 by Ansaldo, Italy, launched in 22.10.1902 and commisioned in 07.01.1904. Her sister ships Nisshin was expended as a target in 1936.

Wasn't Kasuga scrapped in 1937? Without references in front of me, that is the reason that sticks in my brain.

Another possible ship you may add is the Yakumo which was also a turn of the century armoured cruiser still in service with the IJN as training ship.

Did she exist past 1937? I will take a look.

An aircraft carrier (should be made a model 0) is the Chitose,
Length : 192.5m
Width : 18.8m
Draft : 7.2m
Displacement : 11,023t
Main Engine : All Geared Turbin X 2, Diesel X 2, Twin Shaft (56,800hp)
Max Speed : 29Kt
Armament : 127mm Dual High Angled Gun X 2, 25mm Dual Machine Gun X 6
Equipment : Seaplane X 24
Crew : 785

I do not know if this is here stats as a seaplane tender or if this is when she was converted to a light aircraft carrier. She had a sister ship, the Chiyoda but she was laid down after 1936.

More ships to come (mostly more auxillary aircraft tenders/carriers)

I decided to leave the seaplane tenders out of the game. There isn't any good way to incorperate them into the game. I left out the Langley and the Chitose for that reason. The Langley-class is still in the game to represent the basic conversion class of carriers. MDow