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When the Germans invaded, the Danes werent completely taken over. Parts of the armed services were preserved, and the king was still on the throne.
They tried to take the crown jewels though, but failed
But yeah they hadn’t a change against the brute might of Germany and their bombers that were flying continuously over Copenhagen, threatening to level the city if the army made any resistance
But yeah they hadn’t a change against the brute might of Germany and their bombers that were flying continuously over Copenhagen, threatening to level the city if the army made any resistance
You will have to excuse me if I do not readily accept as the true representation of facts what is said in your school book. If it is indeed a school book and not university litterature I probably hold as high or a higher degree in political science than the author (not bragging, just stating what is probably a fact). Thus I think I would need a better source than that to convince me.
Now, I´m not criticising the Norwegian choice to join NATO, I would have wanted Sweden to join NATO as well. I agree that the possibilities for Sweden to defend all of Norway were, to put it mildly, somewhat smaller than for the USA.
However the claim made earlier (by Galleblaere) was that the defense pact fell because Sweden "would not join the war if one of the other nations was attacked", is simply untrue. The fact is that the Sweden might not have been able to actually defend Northern Norway for Norway. That is not the same as saying that Sweden would not helped with defense of the said region or at all. I must say I find it highly unprobable that Sweden would have said that it was unable to help defend the areas though. Going out with such a statement when negotiations are on-going seems very odd from a diplomatic point of view. As far as I know the negotiations were on a political rather than an operative military level. Such discussions would hardly have been made on that level. If you have a source for that (other than your school book that is) I would be most grateful if you could give me a reference. If you could produce it I would concede this point.As I have understood the situation Norway dropped the suggestion because she did not believe an alliance of small nations could give her the protection NATO could (as I´ve said I agree with that assumption). She simply did not believe the alliance with Sweden to be in her best interests since she did not believe (probably correctly) that Sweden could give her enough help to defend herself against an attack. The opinion of Sweden on that matter thus would have been of little consequence to Norway. That is not the same as saying that A) Sweden dropped the pact or B) Sweden would not have joined the war if any of the other members in the pact had been attacked. That is pure nonsense.
Now we are way OT here. I´d be more than willing to continue this discussion, but then I suggest we take it to the OT or History forum so we don´t clutter up the CORE-thread any further.
Mef
Swedish iron ore and the Altmark incident
One thing that isn't (IMO) particularly well handled in HoI is the iron ore relationship between Sweden and Germany - once war breaks out Germany will get bugger all steel from the world market, and Sweden's pretty much out of the action, see you later. Another issue is that the main reason Germany declared war on Norway and Denmark is because it was concerned the Allies were going to forcibly occupy a number of allied ports, including Narvik which was an important cog in the wheel of shipping the iron ore from northern Sweden, through Norway, down to Germany.
To address this, I've done is set up a number of iron ore (err, steel!) shipments from Sweden to Germany, with the triggers meaning they won't fire if Narvik is controlled by the Allies, or Sweden is at war with Germany. These shipments continue four times a year until the end of the war unless something changes (apparently Sweden historically kept shipping the ore until pretty much the end).
I've then gone and put together a chain of events for the allied plans to occupy key norwegian ports, the german responses, and the Altmark incident that triggered everything (in short, the allies pursued a German ship carrying POWs into Norwegian waters, and the Norwegian coast guard didn't interfere. This lead Hitler to believe that Norway was about to join the allies, and so he ordered the invasion, as well as an invasion of Denmark to protect supply lines). I've also tinkered a little with the German invasion AIs to assist them in invading Norway effectively.
It all seems to work alright after a couple of tests - any suggestions as to things that I might have missed in these events? I want to give them another couple of tests before I get some CORE treasury IDs, as there's a few events in there.
One thing that isn't (IMO) particularly well handled in HoI is the iron ore relationship between Sweden and Germany - once war breaks out Germany will get bugger all steel from the world market, and Sweden's pretty much out of the action, see you later. Another issue is that the main reason Germany declared war on Norway and Denmark is because it was concerned the Allies were going to forcibly occupy a number of allied ports, including Narvik which was an important cog in the wheel of shipping the iron ore from northern Sweden, through Norway, down to Germany.
To address this, I've done is set up a number of iron ore (err, steel!) shipments from Sweden to Germany, with the triggers meaning they won't fire if Narvik is controlled by the Allies, or Sweden is at war with Germany. These shipments continue four times a year until the end of the war unless something changes (apparently Sweden historically kept shipping the ore until pretty much the end).
I've then gone and put together a chain of events for the allied plans to occupy key norwegian ports, the german responses, and the Altmark incident that triggered everything (in short, the allies pursued a German ship carrying POWs into Norwegian waters, and the Norwegian coast guard didn't interfere. This lead Hitler to believe that Norway was about to join the allies, and so he ordered the invasion, as well as an invasion of Denmark to protect supply lines). I've also tinkered a little with the German invasion AIs to assist them in invading Norway effectively.
It all seems to work alright after a couple of tests - any suggestions as to things that I might have missed in these events? I want to give them another couple of tests before I get some CORE treasury IDs, as there's a few events in there.
Re: Swedish iron ore and the Altmark incident
If they work, let me know how many IDs do you need, also send the events to my email.
generalisimo_arg@hotmail.com
cheers.
well, i knew that situation because it was discussed here before (or in the GD forum, i can't remember).
If they work, let me know how many IDs do you need, also send the events to my email.
generalisimo_arg@hotmail.com
cheers.
Maybe one could make an event in which Sweden can enter the war against Germany under the conditions that germany is about to lose the war and Denmark &| Norway is annexed
Why would you need to do that? I mean, by the time Germany is about to collapse Sweden probably already has the ability to Declare War.
Agreed. Why make a special case for Sweden, when all the sides that historically fought do so without any events declaring war.
well Sweden is already a special case due to the Finnsh winter war intervention event
Maybe it is just me who want see Sweden in a waronce at least
might be a historical footnote only, but I found a hint in this article that in 1936 Sweden along with the US and Britain sent doctors, nurses and medical supplies to Ethiopia to help against the Italian aggressors.
IIRC there were several attempts from different scandinavian sides in making a alliance.
They all fell of different things at different times.
I think that the swedish military for example would not have wanted Denmark in it since Denmark is undefendable.
The problem with the events concerning the scandinavian alliance is that it's not considered an alliance in the game.
I doubt the AI can handle it well.
The winter war is also a bit odd mainly since the USSR uses 100+ divisions in that operation.
At least the last time i played Sweden and interveened.
If the USSR had used that many divisions there i doubt that Germany wouldn't have taken advantage of that since it would have left the front undefended.
They all fell of different things at different times.
I think that the swedish military for example would not have wanted Denmark in it since Denmark is undefendable.
The problem with the events concerning the scandinavian alliance is that it's not considered an alliance in the game.
I doubt the AI can handle it well.
The winter war is also a bit odd mainly since the USSR uses 100+ divisions in that operation.
At least the last time i played Sweden and interveened.
If the USSR had used that many divisions there i doubt that Germany wouldn't have taken advantage of that since it would have left the front undefended.
I believe that's fixable through a separate USSR.AI file (Winter War use only, 0.9 min garrison prop). Could actually even be the default Soviet AI, switched once Barbarossa begins.
Probably.
It just feels wrong as it is if you decide to help Finland as Sweden and see 30+ stacks everywhere...
Altmark Incident
What's the general feeling on including the Altmark Incident as a trigger for war between Germany and Norway?
I'd suggest a random = 2 event with a war between ENG and GER as a pre-req. This would eventually trigger the Altmark Incident (British capture of German ship in Norwegian waters), which then triggers a second event with a 90 day offset giving Germany the option to DOW Norway (historical choice). The events should sleep if there's a war between GER and SOV.
From a source on the web:
What's the general feeling on including the Altmark Incident as a trigger for war between Germany and Norway?
I'd suggest a random = 2 event with a war between ENG and GER as a pre-req. This would eventually trigger the Altmark Incident (British capture of German ship in Norwegian waters), which then triggers a second event with a 90 day offset giving Germany the option to DOW Norway (historical choice). The events should sleep if there's a war between GER and SOV.
From a source on the web:
Norway would also have the option to let the English do as they please or to condemn this action (would prevent a German DOW but maybe a dissent rise?)
With a Scandinavian pact I want a option to make the A-bomb , Sweden did try during the fifties, if they wanted to become a serious alliance it would probably have some help with A-bombs and finally much of the leading research were done in Copenhagen with Bohr and company who probably would have helped with it.
Okay it isn’t epically probable but i think it would be a wonderful addition
, Sweden did try during the fifties, if they wanted to become a serious alliance it would probably have some help with A-bombs and finally much of the leading research were done in Copenhagen with Bohr and company who probably would have helped with it.Okay it isn’t epically probable but i think it would be a wonderful addition
How do you think we would be able to show if Finland doesn't sue for peace, that the allies were preparing an expeditionary force to save Finland?
And what of the inaccuracies of the German attack on Denmark? In all, Denmark was basically a German puppet..
And what of the inaccuracies of the German attack on Denmark? In all, Denmark was basically a German puppet..