C.O.R.E. Tech Tree: Land units, techs and doctrines

[unmerged(14667)]

Great Work

CORE 0.21 with tech fix 0.25. It's so much more than I hoped. I even left out my Carrier mod and have actually enjoyed using Carriers with only TP Bombers (I did find out that to use their tactical attack you have to rebase the torpedo bombers to land, but no biggie and not sure if it is fixable.) Playing as the mighty US juggernaut. Was actually surprised to hit the various multiple required techs to get better tanks, naval changes superb, still think Mechanized and Elite Divisions need to be farther down the tree but I can edit that myself.
Cheers
Patrick

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: Great Work

Originally posted by Lightsfantastic
CORE 0.21 with tech fix 0.25. It's so much more than I hoped. I even left out my Carrier mod and have actually enjoyed using Carriers with only TP Bombers (I did find out that to use their tactical attack you have to rebase the tac bombers to land, but no biggie and not sure if it is fixable.) Playing as the mighty US juggernaut. Was actually surprised to hit the various multiple required techs to get better tanks, naval changes superb, still think Mechanized and Elite Divisions need to be farther down the tree but I can edit that myself.
Cheers
Patrick

Thanks,
good to know that it's actually playable.
Still got some issues with bending Ai to research what I want, but I think that mod will be ready to include in CORE 0.3 (2-3 weeks?).

 

[unmerged(14667)]

AI

My only issue with the AI so far has been NatChi and the UK. Nat Chi still gets whacked way to early. The UK is doing NOTHING in Europe but is kicking the Japanese out of China. They have a HUGE Strategic Bomber Group just sitting there collecting dust, and a good sized army to boot, all the while they are marching on Shanghai.
My island hopping campaign is way to easy also. Maybe CORE could incorporate some of Nighty's Stoney Road/Rising Sun Japanese events that ratchet up the island defenses to make it a little tougher.
The tank models listed in CORE do not match up with the tank techs (The Heavy's (USA, France, England) are still there and throw the whole thing off. I self edited the USA's to get mine right.)
Still Cheers for a superb job. Haven't had this much fun with HOI since I tried Stoney Road.
Patrick

 

[Steel]

Re: AI

Originally posted by Lightsfantastic
My only issue with the AI so far has been NatChi and the UK. Nat Chi still gets whacked way to early.

Well, with the Soviet assistance to China and some AI/event changes for ComChi (these will be in 0.3 or maybe next hotfix) I've been seeing pretty good results. Of course in any single game you can get very ahistorical results, but on average the trend is now that NatChi survives. In one game Japan, ComChi, NatChi and Germany (!) were all fighting in China when the game ended in 1947.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: AI

Originally posted by Lightsfantastic
The tank models listed in CORE do not match up with the tank techs (The Heavy's (USA, France, England) are still there and throw the whole thing off. I self edited the USA's to get mine right.)

It's already corrected in 0.26.

 

[unmerged(14667)]

Great

I went ahead and did my own "what if's" for countries like Italy and Japan, creating names for tank models that did not historically exist. It was actually quite fun until I realized Australia uses the exact same list as the UK and I got to type AST over and over again.
Cheers
Patrick

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: Great

Originally posted by Lightsfantastic
I went ahead and did my own "what if's" for countries like Italy and Japan, creating names for tank models that did not historically exist. It was actually quite fun until I realized Australia uses the exact same list as the UK and I got to type AST over and over again.
Cheers
Patrick

I gradually add correct names from original CORE, but since I dumped heavies, I broke whole numeration order and this means lot's of work. But every release there is more correct names.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Update...

Ok, new release of basic pack 0.27 is ready.

Changes since 0.26:

- Italian units "repeated unit id bug" removed,
- AT wired missile tech now gives +4 hard_attack,
- Improved AT tube launcher now gives +2 hard_attack,
- experimentally lowered fascist orientation of minor Axis (30 points lower),
- experimantal difficulty level event (mayor nations only),
- reshaped Great Patriotic War doctrine - now huge bonus to productivity (25%) and shorter time and cost of divisions,
- implemented latest MDow's changes - Revenue Cruiser and German Battleships building programme,
- huge addon to models.csv file - 90% of nations got tank names (form Excel Unit mod and CORE 0.21),
- modified GER and ITA AI's - hopefully now they will influence Afghanistan less frequently.

Some of this changes affect whole game, not only tech tree, but I assume no one got problem with little testing of thing, that will be probably added to basic CORE?

Enjoy!

 

[nachinus]

Copper Nicus I haven´t tested your tech mod yet, but i will do when i finish the games im playing right now.

There´s one thing that came into my mind: many of the new and reworked techs give extra points to attack values for many units. This way, in modded HoI, units will have more punch than in vanilla HoI. How will this reflect in battles? If you increase attack values without proportionally increasing defence effectiviness, units will be killed faster and thus battles will be shorter and with more casualties even if the 2 armies fighting have the same tech level.

I don´t know if this happens, or if there are defence bonus in the techs that compensate the huge increase in killing capabilities of units. IMHO, 2 armies with the same tech level should have battles similar in duration and casualties to those in HoI in a similar situation.

 

[Ghost_dk]

Originally posted by nachinus
Copper Nicus I haven´t tested your tech mod yet, but i will do when i finish the games im playing right now.

There´s one thing that came into my mind: many of the new and reworked techs give extra points to attack values for many units. This way, in modded HoI, units will have more punch than in vanilla HoI. How will this reflect in battles? If you increase attack values without proportionally increasing defence effectiviness, units will be killed faster and thus battles will be shorter and with more casualties even if the 2 armies fighting have the same tech level.

I don´t know if this happens, or if there are defence bonus in the techs that compensate the huge increase in killing capabilities of units. IMHO, 2 armies with the same tech level should have battles similar in duration and casualties to those in HoI in a similar situation.

Hi Nachinus

Looking at the new techs(as per the tread so far) I think a lot of focus has been made on making AT-weaponry more efficient.
This is totally right as the losses taken by armor and mech units in vanilla hoi are way too low.

Math Guy has made a couple of treads regarding this and way things are moving now it makes for more balanced armies to be created with inf. divs supported by mech and armor instead of all armor units which will get severe punishment for working on their own. Historically correct IMO. The strengh of armor was their punch not their defense.

Ghost_dk

 

[nachinus]

I was thinking about battles in general, not only armor. I saw some techs increasing soft and hard attack values, but not a songle one increasing defence effectiveness of any unit, and i was wondering how battles would be with all those 'more punch' techs developed.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by nachinus
I was thinking about battles in general, not only armor. I saw some techs increasing soft and hard attack values, but not a songle one increasing defence effectiveness of any unit, and i was wondering how battles would be with all those 'more punch' techs developed.

AFAIK, statistics of land units are not extremely higher than in vanilla HoI. Air units are better, but for now it not unbalanced game - land units are still most important.
It's mod is based on MKSheppard's, but first things I changed were the statistics of tanks and techs connected with those (as well as artillery).
One thing to notice - brigades (and not only engineers) are much better than in vanilla HoI.
I welcome all suggestions, also to the statistics of the units.

 

[Steel]

Re: Update...

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Some of this changes affect whole game, not only tech tree, but I assume no one got problem with little testing of thing, that will be probably added to basic CORE? Enjoy!

Not at all, get it in there so everybody can see and test it - that's the best way. The only thing I'd add is that IMHO we should keep the difficulty level setup events separate from standard C.O.R.E. and make it an optional install, probably along with alternate distribution of *.inc files and maybe province.csv as well.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: Re: Update...

Originally posted by Steel
Not at all, get it in there so everybody can see and test it - that's the best way. The only thing I'd add is that IMHO we should keep the difficulty level setup events separate from standard C.O.R.E. and make it an optional install, probably along with alternate distribution of *.inc files and maybe province.csv as well.

"A" choice of difficulty level setup events leaves all on the basic level, so there is no problem.
Later we can add more events connected with particular choices (in case of "a" choice it would be nothing).
It would be nice start of making HardC.O.R.E!

 

[Steel]

Couple of points

Looks like there's a couple of Japanese AI files in TechMod 0.27 that aren't actually used:

japan_2.ai
japan.defense.ai
japan_defensive.ai
japan_sea.ai


The setup events look ok but maybe we can change the desc field wording. Although some players on this forum are saying that the game is easy there's other players who struggle with it and I don't think we should alienate them by implying that they suck at the game.

Suggested description:
desc = "In addition to the effects of the difficulty level you picked when starting the scenario, you now have the opportunity to increase difficulty further by selecting one of the options listed below to weaken your starting position."

I noticed you reduce IC by different amounts for different countries. What's the rationale?

A couple of ideas:
- Reduce the skill level of the top leaders (in each of air, land and naval category) by 1 point for the highest difficulty level choice, say aim to make all 4's into 3's and all 5's into 4's.
- Take away IC only from the top 3 industrial centers. Right now you risk reducing low-IC areas to zero, making them permanent wasteland that can't build IC, Infra, AA or forts.
- Make 2 non-researchable techs that increase R&D time by say 7% and 15% respectively to slow down tech development at higher diff levels.
- (I know you touched on this already) Set a flag for the difficulty level chosen. Create some specific events (random set low, offset high) events that are triggered only if a flag is set and that have various negative effects.

I'm really looking forward to seeing TechMod as part of standard C.O.R.E. there's a lot of impressive work here that I think will improve the game.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: Couple of points

Originally posted by Steel
Looks like there's a couple of Japanese AI files in TechMod 0.27 that aren't actually used:
japan_2.ai
japan.defense.ai
japan_defensive.ai
japan_sea.ai

Damn! I got rid of those in earlier version! Sorry, I will check this in every next release.

Originally posted by Steel
The setup events look ok but maybe we can change the desc field wording.(...)

No problem.

Originally posted by Steel
I noticed you reduce IC by different amounts for different countries. What's the rationale?

It's based on their global IC. USA got the highest penalty, next are Germans, and other countries. All this events work only with human players, so not affect AI at all. It's not exact the same proportion for all the countires - Germany got penalty almost as big as USA simply due to popularity this country among the players.

Originally posted by Steel
A couple of ideas:
- Reduce the skill level of the top leaders (in each of air, land and naval category) by 1 point for the highest difficulty level choice, say aim to make all 4's into 3's and all 5's into 4's.
- Take away IC only from the top 3 industrial centers. Right now you risk reducing low-IC areas to zero, making them permanent wasteland that can't build IC, Infra, AA or forts.
- Make 2 non-researchable techs that increase R&D time by say 7% and 15% respectively to slow down tech development at higher diff levels.
- (I know you touched on this already) Set a flag for the difficulty level chosen. Create some specific events (random set low, offset high) events that are triggered only if a flag is set and that have various negative effects.

All are good, are will be considered for further releases.

Originally posted by Steel
I'm really looking forward to seeing TechMod as part of standard C.O.R.E. there's a lot of impressive work here that I think will improve the game. difficulty

I expect mod would ready for the release in 2 weeks (still need more feedback, some AI work and tech graphics).

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Update...

So, new release of both basic pack 0.28 and gfx pack is ready.

Changes since 0.27:

- lost name for motorized infantry units ("unknown string" bug) corrected,
- sinkiang.ai added (to ensure that they will stay passive),
- ussr.ai modified (corrected defence priorities),
- USA_war.ai modified (corrected research priorities),
- CORE_ai events modified (added trigger for ussr_1940.ai),
- modified event 222030 Great Patriotic War - now it fires early, but it's ai only,
- Persia now is annexed quickly if not played by human player,
- all new events are put into separate file,
- events 222015-16 "USSR naval programme" are back, rewritten for new naval tech tree,
- ground defence bonuses from Static defence and Defensive Regiment land doctrine rised,
- infantry unit is defence 2 from the start now,
- tweaked ablilities of various plane types,
- ground defence of late war tanks lowered.

Enjoy!

 

[Generalisimo]

Re: Update...

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
So, new release of both basic pack 0.28 and gfx pack is ready.

Changes since 0.27:

- lost name for motorized infantry units ("unknown string" bug) corrected,
- sinkiang.ai added (to ensure that they will stay passive),
- ussr.ai modified (corrected defence priorities),
- USA_war.ai modified (corrected research priorities),
- CORE_ai events modified (added trigger for ussr_1940.ai),
- modified event 222030 Great Patriotic War - now it fires early, but it's ai only,
- Persia now is annexed quickly if not played by human player,
- all new events are put into separate file,
- events 222015-16 "USSR naval programme" are back, rewritten for new naval tech tree,
- ground defence bonuses from Static defence and Defensive Regiment land doctrine rised,
- infantry unit is defence 2 from the start now,
- tweaked ablilities of various plane types,
- ground defence of late war tanks lowered.

Enjoy!

one thing, if Sinkiang is invaded, they stay pasive? or they try to defend theirself?.... probably nonsense to waste time on them, but i do not like seeing countries that you could annex in one week, because they are "frozen"....
(like Vichy for example... )

Another thing, i noticed that you modified some events... which? so i can check what you modded....

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: Re: Update...

Originally posted by Generalisimo
one thing, if Sinkiang is invaded, they stay pasive? or they try to defend theirself?.... probably nonsense to waste time on them, but i do not like seeing countries that you could annex in one week, because they are "frozen"....
(like Vichy for example... )

Another thing, i noticed that you modified some events... which? so i can check what you modded....

Sinkiang fights back, but stays in it's borders - it's ok.
Full list of changes is in readme file, check it. If you need more info, just mail me.
This is probably the last release before adding it into regular CORE - at the end of the week I'll post you final files.

I'm a bit concerned by the lack of feedback - but obviously all testers enjoy game so much that they got no time to post.

 

[Generalisimo]

Re: Re: Re: Update...

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Sinkiang fights back, but stays in it's borders - it's ok.
Full list of changes is in readme file, check it. If you need more info, just mail me.
This is probably the last release before adding it into regular CORE - at the end of the week I'll post you final files.

I'm a bit concerned by the lack of feedback - but obviously all testers enjoy game so much that they got no time to post.

Well, so i will wait until the end of the week...
I have my schedule full this two weeks, i have one exam tomorrow and 2 the next week (1 on Tueday, the other on Friday).... so not much time to test...

Then i finish with the "parcial" (sp?) exams... i got some time until the finals come....