C.O.R.E. Tech Tree: Land units, techs and doctrines

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Steel
National Army Comparison
TM 0.2
CHI 44 58

EDIT: I should clarify that table a bit. The first column of numbers is with Techmod overwriting 0.2 release+hotfix files but running without the 9 event files. The second column is standard 0.2 + hotfix files. The numbers are taken at the outbreak of the Sino-Japanese war.

Strange - looks like all other forces are able to build same number or even more units than normal, only China got problems...
Since all more advanced countries have to pay bigger upkeep in supplies (some artillery and infantry techs rise supply use) it should be other way around. I lowered IC cost of infantry by 1 point (4 IC now), so it's event stranger.

But in terms of game balance for now it looks pretty good - USA is really advanced in Air, Inf, Artillery and doctrines, some improvements still had to be added to tank research, but in latest release they are going better.
I'm still fighting with Eastern Front - Krauts are simply too good. After receiving all those expeditionary forces and having allies such Grecce, sometimes Spain, and usually Argentina they are unstoppable. I'm still toying with the idea of second doctrine for USSR, something triggered by lost border battle. They would get org lost by "Political control over Army" back as well as some discount on supplying units (Bread? Vodka will be enough! ). Probably in next version I'll add it, as well as events triggering negative effect of guerilla in Europe (GER event), Asia (JAP) and Africa (ITA).

 

[Steel]

Well, a Russian collapse is a good thing the hard part is to save them at the gates of Moscow Once they lose their entire resource/supply stockpile they are not going to recover. The lend-lease from USA to SOV should probably be stepped up, but maybe by using convoy rather than just resource pool increases.

About China, when you get the next version out (with latest AI files + your changes) then I'll test again a few times. I'm *very* familiar with those AI files so I'm happy to tinker with it.

 

[unmerged(13809)]

"Yes, but that can be solved with another mod I've been considering -- a tech that cuts ALL unit build times and supply costs in half but is unresearchable and can only be obtained by going to war. It's not really a cheat, it's modeled on the cost-versus-volume curve discovered by an American aeronautical engineer named Wright in the 1930s. When you produce 10x as much of something (Wright studied aircraft production, obviously), the average cost per unit will drop by half. " mathguy

I tried this..added this tech:



application = { # Massive increase in Soviet arms production
id = 11005
name = "Soviet production modifiers"
desc = "Soviet blablabla."

required = { 6900 2970 11508 13504 11507}
chance = 90
cost = 1
time = 8000
neg_offset = 35
pos_offset = 70

effects = {
command = { type = build_cost which = motorized when = now value = -2 }
command = { type = build_time which = motorized when = now value = -50 }
command = { type = build_cost which = mechanized when = now value = -5 }
command = { type = build_time which = mechanized when = now value = -50 }
command = { type = build_cost which = armor when = now value = -6 }
command = { type = build_time which = armor when = now value = -90 }
command = { type = build_cost which = infantry when = now value = -2 }
command = { type = build_time which = infantry when = now value = -50 }
command = { type = max_organization which = infantry when = now value = -10 }
command = { type = max_organization which = motorized when = now value = -5 }
command = { type = max_organization which = mechanized when = now value = -5 }
command = { type = max_organization which = armor when = now value = -12 }
command = { type = industrial_modifier which = total value = 20 }

}
}

Soviet will get this tech when Germany attacks. The low org is to simulate that they didnt train their soldiers and tank crews enough....they had decent tanks but shitty crew. When germany dow Soviet, the soviet build queue is filled up instantly so the tech really doesnt have any effect until a couple of months (4-5) into the war..But then.. i have some numbers fromone of my tests:
Size of army:
April 1941 War breaks out
GER 220 SOV 210
6 months into war
GER 220 SOV 210 (germans at gates of moscow, soviet lost tons but have gotten many new because of the tech)
Jan 42
220 234
Mars
210 240
april
210 266
jun
200 281

Surely stopped the germans at the gates of moscow...germany will get a similar tech when russians are closing in on germany.

Jsut an idea. (i played with CORE + techmod + matguy supplymod)

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by hesp
"Yes, but that can be solved with another mod I've been considering -- a tech that cuts ALL unit build times and supply costs in half but is unresearchable and can only be obtained by going to war. It's not really a cheat, it's modeled on the cost-versus-volume curve discovered by an American aeronautical engineer named Wright in the 1930s. When you produce 10x as much of something (Wright studied aircraft production, obviously), the average cost per unit will drop by half. " mathguy

Jsut an idea. (i played with CORE + techmod + matguy supplymod)

Hmmm, rather radical, isn't it? But maybe it's only solution... BTW, in my test games USSR always got better equipment (or at least tanks) then GER.

Anyway, try the latest version of the techmod - I've added there doctrine I was refering to in earlier post, as well as some partisan suprises for Axis nations.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Update...

Ok, next release of basic pack - 0.24 is ready.

Changes since 0.23:

- list of models updated (air units added - Tnx Exel!, naval units) - tanks still are revisited,
- added Land Doctrine 11512 - Great Patriotic War (bonus for SOV facing invasion),
- added event 222030 - Great Patriotic War - activation of Great Patriotic War doctrine,
- added event 222031 - Partisan attacks increase (GER) - activation of partisan attacks in Europe,
- added event 222032 - Partisan attacks increase (JAP) - activation of partisan attacks in China,
- all new events are stored in CORE_USSR.txt for now,
- new industrial tech level 1 added 4103 - Semi-modern Chemistry,
- new industrial tech level 1 added 4104 - Industrial Pasteurization (lower supply use),
- USA, UK and USSR AI industrial research priorities modified.

Unpack all the files in your HoI instalation folder
(for example D:\Program Files\Strategy First\Hearts of Iron).

Modified files would replace old ones.

IMPORTANT: AI FILES WOULD BE REPLACED. IF YOU INSTALLED CORE IN FOLDER OTHER THAN DEFAULT,
YOU WOULD HAVE TO MOVE FILES FROM MOD-CORE DIRECTORY MANUALLY.

In case of tech graphics archive (techmod_gfx.zip) unpack it into your HoI instalation folder (for example D:\Program Files\Strategy First\Hearts of Iron). Modified files would replace old ones.

IMPORTANT: SINCE 0.21 GFX ARCHIVE REMAINS UNCHANGED. (I'm still collecting right pictures).

Enjoy!

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Steel
About China, when you get the next version out (with latest AI files + your changes) then I'll test again a few times. I'm *very* familiar with those AI files so I'm happy to tinker with it.

In this (0.24) release I still use old AI's (not from your mail) - sorry, had no time to use them. I'll add them in the next release.


Madner@:

Ok, I'll use those model names. One question - Char B1 and Char B1 bis were heavy tanks, not medium, right?

 

[unmerged(13241)]

Char B1 and Char B1 bis were heavy tanks, not medium, right?

Compared to the German tanks they faced they would be heavy tanks. They wighted around 33tons, being in the same class as the T-34.
The KW-1 was much heavier (47.5t) and the Tigers all far excedeed 50t, so I thought it would be best to add them as medium tanks.
Besides, most "heavies" were not used as main tanks, but the Char B1 was the main tank of they armoured divisions.

Maybe you could add a nation panzer doctrine tech, for the French it should add to the ground defense and soft attack, but subtract from speed and org. (This could later be changed, and in the '36 scenario the player could choose his tech)
The German should have a bonus on speed and org.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by madner
Maybe you could add a nation panzer doctrine tech, for the French it should add to the ground defense and soft attack, but subtract from speed and org. (This could later be changed, and in the '36 scenario the player could choose his tech)
The German should have a bonus on speed and org.

Heh, I don't want to give Germans nothing more - for now they seems to be unstopable, even with inferior equipment...
I'll review France, but I think that for now they look all right - AI is unable to win with them, but smart player, with 3 years of inventing land doctrines and getting techs from allies should be able to crush Germany with his Char's (or at least reach stalemate).

One thing I would like to get from Paradox in the next patch is to get tank units disabled at the start (to activate them later with right doctrine, just like mot, mech and the rest).

 

[unmerged(13241)]

Heh, I don't want to give Germans nothing more - for now they seems to be unstopable, even with inferior eqipment...

I forgot, they should get a penalty on ground defense Quite obvius, less armour = more speed ^ less defense.

 

[unmerged(13809)]

About the 44`pattern divisions: Wasnt this an only germany tech? and wasnt it applied only because they were low on manpower and being beaten by the russians? Now they get the 44` divisions awfully early, making it even easier for them to defeat the russians. Elite units: German only? Maybe let them be unresearchable and give them to germany by event( Raise elite units? -2000 supply and 200 manpower, 6 months later u get some elite mechs)
About my last post: The tech i proposed is maybe a little radical(i might have given them to much cost reduction), but it works and its more historical then the way it is now. But im gonna dig up some info about the actual figures.

 

[unmerged(13809)]

When you produce 10x as much of something , the average cost per unit will drop by half. This is not modeled at all in hoi.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by hesp
About the 44`pattern divisions: Wasnt this an only germany tech? and wasnt it applied only because they were low on manpower and being beaten by the russians? Now they get the 44` divisions awfully early, making it even easier for them to defeat the russians. Elite units: German only? Maybe let them be unresearchable and give them to germany by event( Raise elite units? -2000 supply and 200 manpower, 6 months later u get some elite mechs)

Yes, those doctrines are splinters of original MKShepp's tech mod and it was really German-centered. Your idea looks right - I can't find any examples of 44' pattern or so called 'elites' (russian guards are wholly different matter) in other countries. I put German doctrine, which will be the root of Elites and 44 pattern (similar to Political Control -> Great Patriotic War) on the "to-do" list.

Originally posted by hesp
About my last post: The tech i proposed is maybe a little radical(i might have given them to much cost reduction), but it works and its more historical then the way it is now. But im gonna dig up some info about the actual figures.

Ok, I'll test it.

 

[unmerged(13241)]

Originally posted by hesp
When you produce 10x as much of something , the average cost per unit will drop by half. This is not modeled at all in hoi.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your tech has cut the cost at half, but more to something like 25% IC wise.

If a unit takes 10 IC and 100days it cost 1000IC, if you cut the IC to 5 then it cost 500IC, (50%) when you cut the time to 50 days it costs 500IC (50%) but if you do both then it costs 250 IC or only 25%.

 

[unmerged(13809)]

no i cut time and cost by 1/3 each or something around there..i didnt calculate it or anything. I dont suggest that we use that tech, but something similar, a production bonus...or a time bonus or both..The way it is now the germans have twice the IC as russia when they attack and there is no way the russians can outproduce the germans. And with the manpower cut in half in 1.04 they never run out of manpower either.

Naval: should the naval gunboat really cost 6 IC? Germany has really a lot of researching to do if they gonna get the bismarck before the war. ( ordered 1935, laid down 1. july 1936) Maybe they should be just one or two techs away?
Air: The bobmers are much better and only cost half as much? Why?

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by hesp
Naval: should the naval gunboat really cost 6 IC? Germany has really a lot of researching to do if they gonna get the bismarck before the war. ( ordered 1935, laid down 1. july 1936) Maybe they should be just one or two techs away?

I hope MDow will show up soon, he'll answer.

Originally posted by hesp
Air: The bobmers are much better and only cost half as much? Why?

To give them some impact even at the start of game. Most of the time players use huge stacks of bombers - something like 10-12 units (1000-1200 planes) at once. Air attack on this scale would be devastating - but in HoI are not. Notice also some more anti-air techs - generally new bombers, IMO are not overrated.

Lower cost - to give more historical numbers of air fleets.

 

[Steel]

Be aware that there's a logged bug about AA tech having no effect

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Steel
Be aware that there's a logged bug about AA tech having no effect

Just read about it... Hmmm, but the air_attack works fine (most of the AA techs rise both attack and defence), so it's not that bad.

Another reason to use AA brigades.

 

[unmerged(13809)]

this is not important and u probably know it, but the germany.inc file isnt up to date, there are some divisions in saarbrücken(id=560) and this causes reoccupation of the rhineland event to fire at startup. Its no big deal but ppl trying the tech mod might think this is a bug with the core.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by hesp
this is not important and u probably know it, but the germany.inc file isnt up to date, there are some divisions in saarbrücken(id=560) and this causes reoccupation of the rhineland event to fire at startup. Its no big deal but ppl trying the tech mod might think this is a bug with the core.

Thanks, I've probably missed that during converting files from 0.1 on 0.2.
BTW, did you reached late war tech levels? I chcecked panzer.txt file lately and I'm toing with the idea of freezing soft_attack value for most advanced tank designs on the level of advanced medium tank 90mm - I think late war tanks are too good infantry killers. As I recon, there is not much difference in soft_attack ability in late war tank guns (in ammunition maybe), because they were optimised for AT work.

 

[MateDow]

Naval Answers

Originally posted by hesp


Naval: should the naval gunboat really cost 6 IC? Germany has really a lot of researching to do if they gonna get the bismarck before the war. ( ordered 1935, laid down 1. july 1936) Maybe they should be just one or two techs away?

Sorry for the delay, I was out of town for the weekend.

The naval gunboat is designed for nations that are really far from being able to build naval warships. The cost is to not allow small countries (Haiti, Egypt, etc) from building large naval forces without building up the technology first. Once all of the bugs have been worked out there will be events that will give those small countries advanced warships built by a major power. All of the nations that historically built ships of destroyer or larger have been given the techs to build something other than the coastal gunboat. Another change that is being made is to add a cruiser sized ship that is the equivilant of the gunboat. I have updated the tech tree to allow Germany to build the Bismark (treaty battleship) at the beginning of the game. There might be the posibility that I add an event to give Bismark and Tirpitz as post-treaty battleships in 1941 to simulate the difficulty that German shipbuilding had building the two ships. They took almost 5 years (1500 days) to build. The game will allow them to be built in half of that time. If they are too easy to build they lose their value. I am open to suggestions.

Carriers are still a sticking point in the game. This is really a problem that will have to be solved by Paradox because of the way that the model works. As carriers work now, they can't stand up to surface warships regardless of whether aircraft are carried or not. If you can use aircraft in a stand off mode (like in the small Med) you can have a devistating effect because the ships are more vulnerable to aircraft. I tend to focus on battleships because they are more useful in the game (and I like them better )

I am working at completing the graphics files for the new tech mod. As it stands right now, it is probably 66% done. Keep sending me sources for graphics. The big difficulty has been finding pictures of all of the electronics that have been added.

As for the remainder of the mod, it looks like it works. I am encountering realistic levels of navies around the globe. If you want more details about testing go to the naval mod thread. MDow