C.O.R.E. Tech Tree: Land units, techs and doctrines

[Exel]

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
About planes - fighter-bomber and multirole fighter is basically the same, isn't it?

Well, the idea was that fighter-bombers would be light multi-role fighters like Hurricane and LaGG-3, while multi-role fighters would be heavy twin-engine planes like Bf110, Mosquito and P-38. Then escorts could be like interceptors but with long range and higher cost, eg. P-47, P-51, Fw190, Yak-9...

As it is now, escort fighters are the heavy twin-engine planes (Bf110), while multi-role class represents both fighter-bombers (Hurricane) and long-range fighters (P-51) at the same time.

Just a thought...

Ok, then it's possible - it's modified in models.csv file (not in unit files, names in those are only in REM lines). Ok, I'll remember that.

No, models.csv only modifies model names, not the type names. Did you mean the text.csv file?

 

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Originally posted by Exel
No, models.csv only modifies model names, not the type names. Did you mean the text.csv file?

There are two files with names of eqiupment - models.csv and modelstext.csv (or something like that, both located in config directory). In one are usually generic names for all nations (like "advanced tactical bomber"), in second one names for particular countries (like "He 111"). So I don't see any problem with changing it (example - "advanced medium bomber").

Name of particular air tech also has to be changed, but it's just as easy.

Originally posted by Exel
Well, the idea was that fighter-bombers would be light multi-role fighters like Hurricane and LaGG-3, while multi-role fighters would be heavy twin-engine planes like Bf110, Mosquito and P-38. Then escorts could be like interceptors but with long range and higher cost, eg. P-47, P-51, Fw190, Yak-9...
As it is now, escort fighters are the heavy twin-engine planes (Bf110), while multi-role class represents both fighter-bombers (Hurricane) and long-range fighters (P-51) at the same time.
Just a thought...

So, figher-bomber class (in HoI terms) would be slightly better in ground attacks then multirole (where air-to-air is better than ground attack)? Hmmm, but planes like bf 110 and P-38 wasn't designed for that - those planes were long range fighters, but after initial fights were moved to strafing (since were not able to fight more specilized fighters) or night fighting.

Simple adding new class would not solve this - especially when we consider that this concept was not developed further. Later models were either developed multirole (Typhoon, Fw 190F) or modified light/medium bombers (Mosquito, Maruder).

 

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what you actually want is the ability to add 'brigades' to escort fighters. Thus an escort fighter with 'bombing brigade' attached will have the same bombing stats as a basic multi-role / fighter-bomber (whatever you call it). Improved versions of the multi-role would be better, however it could provide a cheap alternative for countries lacking the IC's to spend on tech. Ah well, not fesible in HOI (yet?).

 

[Exel]

Originally posted by Wineman
what you actually want is the ability to add 'brigades' to escort fighters. Thus an escort fighter with 'bombing brigade' attached will have the same bombing stats as a basic multi-role / fighter-bomber (whatever you call it). Improved versions of the multi-role would be better, however it could provide a cheap alternative for countries lacking the IC's to spend on tech. Ah well, not fesible in HOI (yet?).

Actually the "brigades" would be needed to multi-role fighters, so you could select between ground support (good tac attack, shorter range, eg. Hurricane) and escort / long-range air superiority missions (good air combat, long range, eg. P-51). This would however be something that the Paradox folks would have to deal with, as they haven't given us the tools to add new brigades.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Exel
(...)This would however be something that the Paradox folks would have to deal with, as they haven't given us the tools to add new brigades.

Uh, right - but let's stick to things that are available in 1.04, ok?

For now I really like air tree thay way it is (with MKShep additions - fighter guns, strat. bomber remote controlled turrets and so on...). What I lack here is:
a) unguided air-to-surface rocket (app on Level 4-5 of Heavy Planes) - basic rocket (like those on Il-2), +1 dive bomber/fighter surface attack (on upgrade).
b) one level lower fighter plane (late interwar fighter, like Me-109B, I-16) - to make difference to the forces using biplanes.
c) one level higher attack plane (semi-modern fighter-bomber, like Su-7) - statistics similar to the highest level of fighters (in MKShep's tree it's "Supersonic fighter"), but with lower air attack and higher surface attack.

Ending tree somewhere in late 50-ties should be resonable, since CORE is designed to cover similar period of time.

 

[Halibutt]

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
(...)strat. bomber remote controlled turrets and so on...). (...)

I know I'm a nitpicker, but remote controlled turrets were a complete disaster until the sixties. This invention diminished the casualties among tail gunners, but the operators of tail guns had to use a complicated system of periscopes and felt sick all the time (really, there are lots of accounts on that). The idea itself was good but it needed applied electronics to be succesful.
Cheers

 

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"Silent" alpha release...

Ok, techmod files are still corrected, but at least now are stable.

Here any potential betas (alphas?) would find files compatibile with CORE 0.2 (I strongly suggest selfcorrecting mod according to the info on the bug tread before installing techmod).

1) basic pack 0.23 - tech files, unit files, INC files, AI files, model files, event files...

WARNING - this version still got database mismatch, but it not CTD game (I will correct it in the next compilation). Tested as Haiti - game was working fine (I ended test in 1942).

2) graphics pack - tech graphics - game would work without them, but I suggest downolading them as well.

WARNING - for now about 40% of naval techs are still without picture - in later compilations it would be corrected.


Instalation notes - check the Read_me file in basic pack.

Changes made so far:

Tanks, mech, mot:
- heavy tanks are now available as tank battalions (added to the panzer div's) only),
- multiturreted tanks are now available as tank battalions (added to the infantry div's) only),
- lowered attack and defence statistics of all tank models in game,
- one model of tank in group deactivates other models (AI needs that),
- lowered speed of tanks - older heavy models are more "infrantry tanks" now,
- development of prototypes of modern tanks (improved) depends now on land doctrine Early War Experience Analysis,
- depending on level of development mech units might be close in effectiveness to panzer divisions,
- some of tank guns need development of corresponding AT gun as a prerequisite,
- Tankettes are now not only potential Panzer div model, but also Recon vehicle (small bonus to 'Chance to detect'),

All land units:
- manpower use is the same as in patch 1.04 units,
- serious role of brigades - most of advanced artillery techs could be used only by those formations,
- in later game brigades creation takes more time - as bigger guns are added,
- supply consumption is lowered, but is still serious (especially in case ART brigades),
- Paras are now costly and their training is long, but they got also higher org.
- Flamethrowers are now siege weapon (bonus to fort attack, no defence bonus),
- some basic infantry and artillery techs upgrade also cavalry units,
- Marine units now are trained longer (150 days),
- Elite units now use more supplies and got smaller bonus to org (10%),

Air units:
- range is cut by 20% to reflect higher use of fuel during combat mission,
- small drop of statistics,
- small rise of cost,
- new unit - Kamikaze attack plane (Japan only - see doctrines),
- lowered bonus for new guns (20mm, 30 mm and so on).

Navy:
- MDow's naval mod replaced original tree,
- Back from the debugger (thanks Steel!),

Industry:
- "Quality Control" tech added - this tech is prerequisite to various advanced equipment,

Nuclear:
- All levels now are developed longer (210 instead 180 days).

Doctrines:
- Winter War and Elite units are positioned higher in doc tree,
- Added new national doctrines - Verdun Experience (French), Political Control Over Army (Soviet) and Bushido Codex (Japan). In case of first and second all land units got lower org, in case of latter land units got higher org and Kamikaze attack planes are activated,
- two special forces doctrines added, as well as first stage of partisan tech/events pack.


INC files:
- all European nations (and USA and Japan), except Albania (problems with balancing Italy) and Spain (balance in Civil War) got basic tech pack of HMG, basic AT gun, basic infantry gun, mortars (81mm) and AA gun. Those weapons were in common use in Europe since the end of Great War.
- France, Germany and Soviet Union got their historical tank techs from 1936 (France is able to built B1 bis, USSR - T-35), but in form of heavy tank battalions,
- corrected bug with German tankettes divs,
- Poland got 80% of their historical techs form 1936,
- New Polish OOB (Military districts instead of Armies) introduced,
- Czechoslovakia got more tank and plane doctrines,
- Germany got all their land doctrines, but they lost doctrines levels (balancing game) - they have to gain battle experience later,
- Finland and Sweden got Winter War doctrine from the start,
- Naval OOB and techs added.

AI files:
- corrected research priorities for USSR, Germany, France (in that case also production priorities), UK and USA ,
- Germany now builds new industry only to the end of 1938 (to speed up research and production),

...and many, many more. I will post it later.

 

[unmerged(13809)]

the models.csv doesnt match the units.txt files ..with germany i start with nuclear cruiser in 36(instead of pocket battleship). i can also build 3 deifferent transports called "unknown string wanted".
the models.csv is only 44kb but original core 0.2 models.csv is 150kb. Naval techs looks awesome(but germany should have bismarck techs in 36..they ordered it in 35) The supply increase with inf. and art. techs will weaken soviet even more, they will never be able to build a large army, and research will slow down because of supply cost. (meybe math guys mod is the way to go...?)

regards

CORE fan and follower

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by hesp
the models.csv doesnt match the units.txt files ..with germany i start with nuclear cruiser in 36(instead of pocket battleship). i can also build 3 deifferent transports called "unknown string wanted".

I know, I'm still implementing Exel Unit Mod... It's the first thing to correct.

Originally posted by hesp
Naval techs looks awesome(but germany should have bismarck techs in 36..they ordered it in 35)(...)

I have to consult MDoW on that... anyway, good to know.

Originally posted by hesp
The supply increase with inf. and art. techs will weaken soviet even more, they will never be able to build a large army, and research will slow down because of supply cost. (meybe math guys mod is the way to go...?)

1 febuary 1941 - Soviets got 241 divisions, T-34/76 and MiG-3 interceptors, and 66 org on average (even after negative political effects).
I strongly suggest playing on V. Hard/Furious level - those extra IC are badly needed for poor AI's.

Thanks for feedback!

 

[MateDow]

Naval Mod Issues

Thank you for the feedback

I will give Germany the ability to build the Bismark-class BBs

I must have a different models text that I am using here on my computer. I will send the updated file to Copper so he can incorperate it into the download pack.

I just downloaded the sprite pack and will see how much tweeking needs to be done to match the current incarnation.

MDow

 

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About commenting files

Just a suggestion. Could you please comment just about everything. I mean its hard to keep track what techs, provinces etc. etc. there are for each country in scenariofiles. Check out Shep's work. Its so nicely commented. No need to browse tech trees etc when you see the name of the tech instead of just numbers...

This should be applied to all files.

 

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About mechanized infantry:

I suggest to add several models of mech infantry, like the panzer file.
It would be a lot of work, but it could work, and it would help greatly. The French could so have they DLM and DCR and actually field two main tanks (the Somua was the tank of the "mech" forces, while the Char was the tank of the "armour" branch).
At the end of the tree one would get the Panzergrandier division equivalents etc...

 

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Re: About commenting files

Originally posted by Icer
Just a suggestion. Could you please comment just about everything(...)

First rule of any IT project - keep good documentation of changes... You are of course right - I'm going to write some files with short descriptions of techs, units (prerequisites, changes) only, but it will take some time. For now you can see 90% of changes written as a REM lines in particular files. All units, most of techs and a lot of INC files got that.

One more thing - I've just found new bug in INC files. It causes CTD during the Vichy event. I'll post corrected version of basic pack today (after 5 PM CE time), also with first instalation of models.csv (no more "unknown string") - in fact I was going to post it right now, but damaged diskette messed my plan.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by madner
About mechanized infantry:

I suggest to add several models of mech infantry, like the panzer file.
It would be a lot of work, but it could work, and it would help greatly. The French could so have they DLM and DCR and actually field two main tanks (the Somua was the tank of the "mech" forces, while the Char was the tank of the "armour" branch).
At the end of the tree one would get the Panzergrandier division equivalents etc...

In fact whole tree is highly modified MKSheppard's, so there are 3 versions of mech/mot/cavalry divs (standard/elites/44' german standard). But the idea is not bad - France got already their national doctrine, so I can attach new model of mech units to this (ensuring that only France could use it).

Could you provide me with french name of those mechanized units? I will use it in models.csv file.

 

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about elite units: when the AI gets that tech, they build nothing but elite units...very ahistorical and a drain to manpower...imho

This is from the techmod: Doesnt this (#) mean that its disabled? sort of...
#1 SS Units
# model = {
# cost = 6
# buildtime = 90
# manpower = 10
# maxspeed = 3
# defaultorganisation = 40 # change
# grounddefence = 1
# airdefence = 1
# softattack = 1
# hardattack = 1
# airattack = 1
# transportweight = 10
# supplyconsumption = 1.2 #change
# fuelconsumption = 0
# speed_cap_art = 5
# speed_cap_eng = 6
# speed_cap_at = 5
# speed_cap_aa = 5
#}
#2 '44 Normal

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by hesp
about elite units: when the AI gets that tech, they build nothing but elite units...very ahistorical and a drain to manpower...imho

Infantry elites are disabled, mech/mot/cavalry are still in play, but since AI got certain prorities for different kinds of divisions, it shouldn't be big number...
I've noticed "elite rush" - that's why elites are put on the higher level than in Shepp's tree.

What nation did you played?

 

[unmerged(13809)]

Stupid me didnt check the others. Only Germany. But played with Sheps techs for months now. Im currently transforming it into MathGuys supply mod idea to see how that works. Its looking great btw. need any help?

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by hesp
Stupid me didnt check the others. Only Germany.

So it's ok, Germans had elites since the start of war. I'm still playing with the idea of dumping these units though - AI got serious problems with them, when it invents doctrine elites are running all around.
How do you like tank battalions idea? Most German players would probably kill me for dumping "Tiger" divisions.

Originally posted by hesp
But played with Sheps techs for months now. Im currently transforming it into MathGuys supply mod idea to see how that works. Its looking great btw. need any help?

Post all observations - broken links beteween techs, suggestions to the OOB's, model names (I know, for now it's broken)... You can also use my mail (see e-mail thread).

 

[unmerged(13241)]

Could you provide me with french name of those mechanized units? I will use it in models.csv file.

Division Légère Mécanique (1940)
(Light Mechanized Division)
Historical units:
1st DLM
2nd DLM
3rd DLM
4th DLM

OOB and history
Except: "The Light Mechanized Division was the first formation of the French army to be completely motorized. Although its initials contained the term "light", this kind of formation was even stonger than the armored divisions (DCR). This formation was named light in reference to the fact that it could deploy in combat order without any delay (and also to avoid confusion with Moroccan Divisions if this formation had been called Mechanized Division).

This formation would not have been possible without General Flavigny who was in charge of the Cavalry from 1931 to 1936. During the 1932 maneuvers of Mailly, the Cavalry presented a mechanized security detachment which received the support of General Weygand, Commander-in-Chief of the French Army. In July 1935, the 4th Cavalry Division was to be transformed into the 1st Light Mechanized Division( since the early thirties, the 4th DC had been an experimental unit for motorization of the Cavalry). "

More French oobs

here

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by madner
Division Légère Mécanique (1940)
(...)More French oobs (...)

Ok, so France would have tank divisions under disguse of mechanized ones.
I can't promise adding them in today's release, but it will be added in the next one for sure. Thanks for feedback!

BTW, did you tried playing France (and if "yes", then does it fare for human player?)?