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C.O.R.E. Tech Tree: Land units, techs and doctrines

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Ok, so France would have tank divisions under disguse of mechanized ones.
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They had two types of tank divisions ;)
However it is fair to say it was a mech unit, the German Panzergradnier division was very similiar to the French DLM, and they also had a regiment of tanks. (And two regiments of Pz grandiers)
This is the reason I suggested to add several types of mech divisions, similar to the panzer counterpart. :D
 
Originally posted by madner
They had two types of tank divisions ;)
However it is fair to say it was a mech unit, the German Panzergradnier division was very similiar to the French DLM, and they also had a regiment of tanks. (And two regiments of Pz grandiers)
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Yes, but contrary to the French mech divs in PzGrenadier divs tank regiment was present only on paper. :D

Originally posted by madner
This is the reason I suggested to add several types of mech divisions, similar to the panzer counterpart. :D
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See what I can do. For now every nation could build 3 types of mech/mot/cav division (same as in MKShepp's).

EDIT:

Ok, updated version 0.22 of basic pack is ready to download .

Changes since 0.21:

- Vichy CTD bug removed,
- basic models file added (for now, not the Exel one),
- db mismatch removed.


Enjoy!
 
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A bit feedback from France, the name of the present mech unit is correct, however the armoured one is not.
It should be DCR or "Division Cuirassée de Réserve"
However the 1st such unit was formed at 2nd Septembar '39, and for this reason France shouldn't have any at start.

The techtree:
1. The Verdun doctrine is not activated at the start, so it is a bit pointless. I would cahnge the effects of the same, this way it is 100% negative, and instead give a -10% offenisve combat modifer and a +5 defensive modifier for infantry. (or along the same lines).
2. The French player should get an event, or a tech with the prequisite of the Verdun doctrine, to allow him to raise a profesional army. (This was De Gauls proposal) this would allow elite mech, panzer and mot units. It should however be very expesnive an bound with a dissent hit.
3. Franch divisions should have much more artilary attached, and much less anti tank.
4. France should have the tank brigade attachments avaible from start, again with an event that will fire about '38 to allow the player the choice to either a) let it be as it is. b) concetrate them.
5. The tank names are mostly wrong, I will look the proper names and post them later.

As for the play with France, I decided to press for war in the Ruhr affair, however the dissent hit of 40 is to much. I couldn't win any offensive battle, however despite that I managed to slice Germany in two. However I had to use the Holland exploit, or I would still sit on the French border waiting for the dissent to drop lower.
 
Exel

Sorry if this is out of place.
"I'm not saying that naval bomber class should be scrapped completely, just that it could be integrated into medium (tactical) bomber class. Just simply give the medium bomber the naval attack values (or so that they increase when you research naval aviation techs). The so-called naval bombers were merely just slightly modified variants from their ground attack cousins (Ju88, B-25, He111...), and there were only a few specialized naval bombers."

To make this work one needs to take away the activation of naval bombers from their command effects and give them advanced detection and sea_attack bonus' as an upgrade, correct? Wouldn't this make all tactical bombers built after be multirole bombers, giving more bang for the buck as well as a cheat?
I like the separation as it is, but how about adding some prerequistes techs for the naval bomber prototypes (must have the basic tactical bomber prototype before the naval bomber prototypes could be built, radar, a naval or air doctrine, anything else?) and a lowering of their research IC cost and/or research time allotment to represent that they are just a modification of an existing design.

"with the difference that a torpedo bomber should represent an carrier-based fighter-bomber, as it was in reality."

That's how I now have them in my carrier mod (not yet released) I removed the sea_attack carriers got from dive bombers and moved it to the torpedo 'bomber' tech.

btw
How are carriers doing in CORE?
Patrick
 
Originally posted by madner
The techtree:
1. The Verdun doctrine is not activated at the start, so it is a bit pointless. I would cahnge the effects of the same, this way it is 100% negative, and instead give a -10% offenisve combat modifer and a +5 defensive modifier for infantry. (or along the same lines).
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Strange, it should work from the start - check if you installed all the inc files in right places. Verdun works from the start, as well as medium tanks, heavies battalions and so on.

Originally posted by madner
2. The French player should get an event, or a tech with the prequisite of the Verdun doctrine, to allow him to raise a profesional army. (This was De Gauls proposal) this would allow elite mech, panzer and mot units. It should however be very expesnive an bound with a dissent hit.
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It could be done by doctrine "countering" existng one (Verdun). But I'm not to sure if human player needs that - he can allways invest in normal research anyway - he got good tank equipment, all he has to do is to get more org to counter Verdun and early disproportion vs. Germany.

Originally posted by madner
3. Franch divisions should have much more artilary attached, and much less anti tank.
Click to expand...

You mean brigades? Could be done - now France uses original HoI OOB.

Originally posted by madner
5. The tank names are mostly wrong, I will look the proper names and post them later.
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Yes, still working on that...

Originally posted by madner
As for the play with France, I decided to press for war in the Ruhr affair, however the dissent hit of 40 is to much. I couldn't win any offensive battle, however despite that I managed to slice Germany in two. However I had to use the Holland exploit, or I would still sit on the French border waiting for the dissent to drop lower.
Click to expand...

Dissent hit is standard HoI issue. About offensive - I'm not sure if you had proper OOB's (since you claim that France had not Verdun Experience)... in the right file french tank units are pretty strong (but severely underorganized). :(

Ok, thanks for the feedback!
 
Took a look a 0.23...

- It includes AI files that are not used:
japan_defense.ai
japan_defensive.ai
japan_sea.ai
japan_2.ai
duplicate germany_ bob.ai (the one with a space in the name)

- It unpacks the AI files into ..\mod-CORE\AI\ which is not used (mod-dir doesn't work for AI directory)

- It includes CORE_events.txt which will re-enable the Post_War.txt and core_Test.txt. Is there some change in there which makes this file required?

- It includes ai_file_doc.txt

- It includes Trip's readme.txt from 23/1 which is obviously out of date

- Is there changes in all those .inc files? Datestamp indicates the package has a total of 82 files not modified since end of April so I would guess they could all be removed.

- Was the changes done based on the 0.1 or 0.2 C.O.R.E. inc files?

- I'm a little sceptical about including game balancing changes (the manpower, DI and resource pool change) in what I thought was a tech mod. Why???


EDIT: Now I'm confused. Looking at the zip file it has 204 files, but it only seems to unpack 83 files?!? :confused:
 
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Originally posted by Steel
- It includes AI files that are not used:
japan_defense.ai
japan_defensive.ai
japan_sea.ai
japan_2.ai
duplicate germany_ bob.ai (the one with a space in the name)
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Could you send me the list (or better proper files with current AI of CORE? Looks like I added some excesive ones... duplicate of bob deleted.

Originally posted by Steel
- It unpacks the AI files into ..\mod-CORE\AI\ which is not used (mod-dir doesn't work for AI directory)
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Corrected. I was putting it in both AI folders anyway, but I was not aware mod-dir is so buggy...

Originally posted by Steel
- It includes CORE_events.txt which will re-enable the Post_War.txt and core_Test.txt. Is there some change in there which makes this file required?
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No. It's removed now. As well as readme and doc.

Originally posted by Steel

Is there changes in all those .inc files? Datestamp indicates the package has a total of 82 files not modified since end of April so I would guess they could all be removed.
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Almost all inc are changed (removed naval techs, modified naval OOB). I prefer to add all of them, since I don't know when I would need them. :) Those no-naval countries inc's are tiny anyway.

Originally posted by Steel
Was the changes done based on the 0.1 or 0.2 C.O.R.E. inc files?
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0.2. All changes which I initially prepared for 0.1 were pasted into original (and probably some excesive - see above) 0.2 files.

Originally posted by Steel
I'm a little sceptical about including game balancing changes (the manpower, DI and resource pool change) in what I thought was a tech mod. Why???
Click to expand...

I'm trying to test some of other changes to techmod, like AI reaction on lower manpower pool. DI was reduced to check how Germany would fare without allies (with only their own techs and units) joining them too soon.

Originally posted by Steel
EDIT: Now I'm confused. Looking at the zip file it has 204 files, but it only seems to unpack 83 files?!? :confused:
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Try again now - on my computer it all looks normal.
 
Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Could you send me the list (or better proper files with current AI of CORE? Looks like I added some excesive ones... duplicate of bob deleted.
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Done, emailed a zip to you. Are your changes all in the technology section? Same for INC files (except Germany obviously)? The changes I've done to the AI files are strategic redeployment, garrison priorities, admiral section, influence, war etc - lots of stuff :eek:

I'm trying to test some of other changes to techmod, like AI reaction on lower manpower pool. DI was reduced to check how Germany would fare without allies (with only their own techs and units) joining them too soon.
Click to expand...

Ok, I understand. I don't necessarily disagree with it, I was just surprised. An initial lower manpower is probably ok if it's later restored through events, however I know Maximilian I commented that lower MP was not well handled by AI in beta test and therefore not implemented. Don't know if it means the AI will build militia, air units or what... just that there was a problem.

The package looks good, although I missed one file - minor_default.txt - first time around. It's a duplicate of an AI file with the same name and can be deleted. The number of errors in a standard HOI installation goes to show how difficult change control really is.

Perhaps we need to look at some kind of change control system so we stop duplicating work etc, but I don't know what the best solution is.

Going to see the new Matrix movie tonight but if I can I'll run a couple of test games. Anything specific I should be looking for?
 
Originally posted by Steel
Done, emailed a zip to you. Are your changes all in the technology section? Same for INC files (except Germany obviously)? The changes I've done to the AI files are strategic redeployment, garrison priorities, admiral section, influence, war etc - lots of stuff :eek:
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AI's got changed the tech priorities only (exception - France, production priorities - less tanks, more mechanized).
In INC - techs, OOB's and things mentioned in earlier posts (GER manpower, Axis DI).

Originally posted by Steel
The package looks good, although I missed one file - minor_default.txt - first time around.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll correct this.

Originally posted by Steel
Perhaps we need to look at some kind of change control system so we stop duplicating work etc, but I don't know what the best solution is.
Click to expand...

Agree, different thread with tags, list of changes and all this stuff should do.

Originally posted by Steel
Going to see the new Matrix movie tonight but if I can I'll run a couple of test games. Anything specific I should be looking for?
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I don't know, white rabbit? :D
 
LOL :D Will do!

What changed in core_USSR.txt? It's 3.6kB smaller.

The tech file format.txt can be deleted as well from the zip-file. I know it's trivia, I just like to keep it clean so it's easier to see what changed.

Right, I'm going to install this now and start a test game. I'll let you know (probably tomorrow) how I get on.
 
Ok, I have done a clean install and it seems to work now as it should ;) Great navy tree BTW.

French tank models:
1 - Late Great War Tank tank - no doubt, the FT-17 the first "modern" tank design.

2 - .30 Cal Tankette - AMR 33

3 - .50 Cal Tankette - AMR-35 / 13mm

4 - Infantry Support Tank - FCM-36

5 - Basic Light Tank (MG)- AMR-35 / 7.5mm

6 - Basic Light Tank (20+mm) - AMR-35 ZT2 *armed with a 25mm gun*
7 - Basic Light Tank (30+mm) - H-35

8 - Basic Light Tank (40+mm) - AMC-35

9 - Improved Light Tank (20+mm) - Panhard 178 (actually an armoured car)
10 - Improved Light Tank (30+mm) - M3 Stuart

11 - Improved Light Tank (40+mm) -

12 - Advanded Light Tank (30+mm) - H-39

13 - Advanded Light Tank (40+mm) -

14 - Advanded Light Tank (50+mm) - Valentine

15 - Advanded Light Tank (70+mm) - M24 Chaffee

16 - Basic Medium Tank (MG) - R-35 (the old gun made the tank useless versus other tanks)

17 - Basic Medium Tank (30+mm) - R-40

18 - Basic Medium Tank (40+mm) - Char-B1

19 - Basic Medium Tank (50+mm) - Char-D2 (the D2 had a longer 47mm gun *same as Somua and B1-bis* then the B1, with a much higher pentration)

20 - Basic Medium Tank (70+mm short) - Char-B1-bis

more to follow
:D
 
Ok ran 2 test games, both ended with CTD. First was August 15, 1937 and the second was October 9, 1941. History logs are available on request. It may have been events firing with specific technologies given, it would *really* help if there was a table for which tech numbers are no longer valid and ideally with conversion (ie what replaced it).

- There's about 45 gain_tech commands with specific techs in the bolted.txt event file.

- I use the following in a custom event (in test):
Code: 
		command = { type = gain_tech which = 14000 } 
		command = { type = gain_tech which = 14001 } 
		command = { type = gain_tech which = 14003 } 
		command = { type = gain_tech which = 14005 }

- core_CEurope.txt has:
Code: 
		command = { type = gain_tech  which = 14003 }
		command = { type = gain_tech  which = 14006 }

- core_EEurope.txt has 100+ gain_tech commands :eek:

- core_Germany.txt has about 10 gain_tech commands.

- core_Iberia has about 18 gain_tech commands.

- core_SCAsia.txt has 4 gain_tech commands.

- natchi.txt has about 11 gain_tech commands.

- germany.txt has 1 gain_tech commands.
 
Sinkiang

Oh, and did you guys give some steroids to Sinking? ;)

sinkiang.jpg
 
Ok, took it up to end of 1943 with no events at all. Without Vichy event Germany was of course still bogged down in France with 100 divisions surrounding Colmar but the main point here is that there was no CTD so probably one of those 9 event files is the source of the crashes I saw.

It's a bit hard to tell what's new in the mod since I've not worked on developing it, perhaps for debug purposes it would be good to prefix new techs with a double star **, this would be easy to search/replace (with nothing)when it comes to removing it before official release and it would make it much easier to understand the changes you've made.

This time ComChi annexed NatChi :confused: It's not like they are doing all the conquest, most of China's provinces go to Japan, it's just that I've never seen SIK and CHC do something like that before. I'm using all the files you sent me, none of mine, so maybe this is a non-issue.

Is there a list of techs you need pics for? Would be easier to do targetted search then... You may want to check the Imperial War Museum picture archives and maybe the Bundesarchiv.

Check Naval Research, Level 6, Diesel Engines. It says "Naval Desence" instead of Naval Defence. Seems pervasive, is this an error in text.csv or something? Don't remember seeing it in vanilla HOI though.

Check Naval Research, Level 10, ASW Helicopters. It says DD supply consumption 0.. Is that supposed to be point something? I didn't check if it actually has an effect.

A lot of the Naval Research techs still have all the line breaks that I had removed in the files I sent back. This makes it rather ugly, for example in ASW Helicopters the word "is" is alone on a line in the middle of the description. Just take out all the line breaks from the desc field and it will look much better.
 
Originally posted by Steel
(...)no CTD so probably one of those 9 event files is the source of the crashes I saw.
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Ok, today I'm checking bolted events, it's probably something there, since there is no fixed date of CTD, nor persistent CTD - it's always random.

Originally posted by Steel
(...)It's a bit hard to tell what's new in the mod since I've not worked on developing it, perhaps for debug purposes it would be good to prefix new techs with a double star **, this would be easy to search/replace (with nothing)when it comes to removing it before official release and it would make it much easier to understand the changes you've made.
Click to expand...

Give me some time - since it's modded mod (MKSheppard's tree, originally suggested by him for CORE) plus one big mod on itself (MDoW Naval mod) there is a lot to list as a changes.

Originally posted by Steel
(...)This time ComChi annexed NatChi :confused: It's not like they are doing all the conquest, most of China's provinces go to Japan, it's just that I've never seen SIK and CHC do something like that before. I'm using all the files you sent me, none of mine, so maybe this is a non-issue.
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But probably Japan took all China later anyway... Still is more historical than usual game of HoI - Commies wins! ;) :D
Seriously - it's NatChi AI - they are very much oriented on war with Japan and guarding this border, so Sinkiang and Commies do what they want.


Originally posted by Steel
(...)Is there a list of techs you need pics for? Would be easier to do targetted search then... You may want to check the Imperial War Museum picture archives and maybe the Bundesarchiv.
Click to expand...

Navy, navy, navy, especially technical eqiupment (pics of ships are common)... If you know good links, send them to MDoW - he coordinates naval graphics.

Originally posted by Steel
Check Naval Research, Level 6(...)Check Naval Research, Level 10, (...)
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I'll check those.

Originally posted by Steel
A lot of the Naval Research techs still have all the line breaks that I had removed in the files I sent back. This makes it rather ugly, for example in ASW Helicopters the word "is" is alone on a line in the middle of the description. Just take out all the line breaks from the desc field and it will look much better.
Click to expand...

Yes, I've also noticed this. I'm still correcting those descriptions, in every next version it would look better.

Thanks for feedback!
 
Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Give me some time - since it's modded mod (MKSheppard's tree, originally suggested by him for CORE) plus one big mod on itself (MDoW Naval mod) there is a lot to list as a changes.
Click to expand...

I understand that, I just report whatever I see or think as it occurs to me but I know full well how hard it is to change some things. Japanese internal politics has been on my to-do since day 1 :eek:

About China I wouldn't worry too much, it seems that NatChi is failing to build units and that's their downfall. It's pretty much fixed in standard C.O.R.E. 0.2 files.

Code: 
National Army Comparison
    TM   0.2
SOV 102  97
GER 82   71
JAP 71   76
ENG 69   54
FRA 57   59
POL 45   35
[b]CHI 44   58[/b]
ITA 40   23

National Navy Comparison
    TM   0.2
ENG 98   114
JAP 79   92
USA 76   81
ITA 54   63
FRA 37   37
SOV 33   33
GER 19   19

National Air Force Comparison
    TM   0.2
ENG 38   29
USA 27   18
SOV 27   24
ITA 24   15
GER 20   18
FRA 16   14

EDIT: I should clarify that table a bit. The first column of numbers is with Techmod overwriting 0.2 release+hotfix files but running without the 9 event files. The second column is standard 0.2 + hotfix files. The numbers are taken at the outbreak of the Sino-Japanese war.
 
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