point 1:
Originally posted by Jinnai
Yes, except for the event signaling when the current China should fall. Everything else I agree with to a large extent.
which means theres no disagreement in point 1, the real problem lies in point 2.
point 4:
Originally posted by Jinnai
You misunderstand, neither of those should get the mandate, but neither should the current China keep its mandate.
which brings up essentially the same point as #1. i still fail to see why it's a better interpretation.
point 3:
Originally posted by Jinnai
Yes, but i thought we said we were gonna switch it after a while.
yes, but that only makes it a bit easier to exploit, it's still hard, especially compared with russia or even france bcoz it happens once u control it rather than own it and high aggression.
point 2:
Originally posted by Jinnai
[the rest]...
let me point out once again that the problem situation u raised is unlikely to happen (for reasons stated already). two things need to be detected to overcome this narrow situation: relative strengths and the passage of time. if the situation is that the old regime had control of all (or almost all) ~16 significant non-mandatory provinces plus 1 mandatory province and the new regime had control of 11/12 only, then however long the time this situation is maintained the old regime should still be the legitimate one. with the passage of time, the one that is clearly dominant should always be recognised as legitimate. i have already thought about the possible ways to overcome this more than a month ago (see the last paragraph of the post i made on 27-04-2003 16:28), but turned out to me theres no good solution. countrysize alone would be very inaccurate to detect relative strengths not only bcoz there are rich and poor provinces but bcoz nations might be controlling but not owning those provinces, which countrysize wont be able to detect. adding in diplomatic relations may help a bit, but it's still inaccurate to use the situation of a particulat point in time only bcoz things may change very quickly. trying to check every few years is going to make the events extremely big & complicated.
in modern times, the concept of mandate from heaven dont apply. however, i still see no example in modern times that would run contrary to what the model will produce. the revolution was successful in 1911, with provinces all over China having revolutionary governments (only a few mandatory provinces did not follow), and the Nationalist government was established in 1912. general Yuen then forced the emperor to abdicate in Beijing, bringing the rest of central China under nationalist government control, enough to displace the tag. it's true that some provinces were ruled by de facto independent generals at that time, but, given Qing was extinguished, the order of priority would certainly give the tag to the nationalist government anyway since they were the one who directly overthrew the Qing (much like Shun should get priority if Ming is extinguished). A new government replaced the revolutionary government later in 1916, but different factions controlled different parts of northern China so none would be legitimate. the next displacement occurs in 1949, when the nationalists lost control of mainland China (all mandatory provinces) to have legitimacy displaced to the communists.
by taking into account the issues that u raised into the game, it raises so many problems that i m not sure whether it's worth the trouble at all. i m inclined to think that the stronger the new regime is relative to the old regime the shorter it should take for legitimacy to switch in cases where it does not control all 12 provinces. this should also apply where 2 new regimes divide China with the old regime remaining in 1 province. so even if there are accurate tests for relative strengths and time, the 2 tests should even somehow interact. then u would have to think about situations of the old regime regaining footing, and IMO if an old regime regains footing within about 50 years of being weaker than the new regime, then the tag should never switch, but if it regained footing after more than around 50 years of being the weaker power, then the tag should have been switched the first time when it became weaker. this introduces something that is impossible, something that could only be done by historians interpreting history retrospectively but we cannot do something to the game retrospectively. if u want to be perfect in aligning the tag with historical interpretations, then u should probably modify the 50 yrs that i just mentioned against the amount of time the old regime was able to sustain its comeback. if its comback only lasted 10 years, then the 50 years should probably be shortened.
all it comes down to is that i m not satisfied taking into account the situation u raised to make the event more realistic could be done without extremely complicating the events, if it is possible to do at all.
i thought all along the way u were saying it's too difficult. previously u were pointing out how unrealistic it is to not get the tag with 11/12 provinces, now u r questioning whether it's feasible gamewise. the arguments are just too inconsistent for me to comprehend. can u perhaps state all the objections u have coherently once and for all so that i can at least be assured that i m engaging in any meaningful discussion here?
