Eu2Vic: Feedback and Comments

[unmerged(26691)]

voting_rights: depend on serfom and aristocracy (default value is “none”). If the people aren’t free enough they will not be likely to vote. You should at least reach serfdom = 5 to be able to get some voting rights. There after the values are dependant on aristocracy. The lower, the more voting rights.

Hmmm. Another variant would be this:
First, test Freedom. If serfdom >= 5, there will be voting rights.

Now look at the Aristocracy/Plutocracy slider. If it is close to Plutocracy than the Serfdom/Freedom slider to Freedom, the voting rights will be Census. If it is close to Aristocracy than Freedom, they will be landed. If the Freedom slider is close to the extreme positions than the Aristocracy/Plutocracy slider, then there is universal suffrage. In case of a tie, Census or Landed win out.


Ehh... clear?

 

[montyP]

I would replace centralization with narrowmindness/innovative and require at least an innovative value of > 5 to get something else than order.

Something like this:
Liberty (test first):
Innovative > 5
Aristocracy <= 4
Serfdom <= 2
Mercantilism <= 5 (optional)
Equality (test second):
Innovative > 5
Serfdom <= 2
Order:
In all other cases

Sure, that sounds fair. But shouldn't the values be higher/lower? It should be pretty hard to get Liberty or Equality.

 

[montyP]

Hmmm. Another variant would be this:
First, test Freedom. If serfdom >= 5, there will be voting rights.

Now look at the Aristocracy/Plutocracy slider. If it is close to Plutocracy than the Serfdom/Freedom slider to Freedom, the voting rights will be Census. If it is close to Aristocracy than Freedom, they will be landed. If the Freedom slider is close to the extreme positions than the Aristocracy/Plutocracy slider, then there is universal suffrage. In case of a tie, Census or Landed win out.


Ehh... clear?

Pretty clear

If we do it that way we might consider lowering the serfdom value?

 

[unmerged(1180)]

I've been following this project closely, and I like what I see.

A few humble suggestions:

1. EU2 Great Naval shipyard should equal a Clipper Factory in Vicky.
2. Conscription center should equal an ammunition and a small arms factory.
3. Army conversion should not only be based on civilised/uncivilised - if the nation has reached a certain tech level (say level 20 land), but will be uncivilised, they should get native quality regulars, not irregulars.

As for pop conversion, I think you should take a look a the Vanilla Vic combined Euro population (and perhaps Asian as well) and multiply the EU2 population at end game so that it roughly fits. Perhaps the factor is, say, 3. Multiply the EU2 province population with 3 and you get the Vicky population.

As for cultures and religion, I think 70% should be of the culture and religion of the EU2 province, while 30% should be the culture and religion of the neighbouring provinces.

Take for example an EU2 province - say Trebizond. It ends the game as Greek, Orthodox. Kastamnou to the west is Turkish, Orthodox, Armenia to the east is Armenian, Orthodox, Angora to the south is Turkish, Sunni and Georgia to the north is Georgian, Orthodox.

Thus, the Vicky province representing Trebizond should be

70% Greek, Orthodox
7,5% Turkish, Orthodox
7,5% Turkish, Sunni
7,5% Armenian, Orthodox
7,5% Georgian, Orthodox

Provinces in the midst of a culture group (such as the centre of Sweden) will be 100% same culture and religion, while border regions will be more multi-ethnic.

Then sprinkle the minority groups of Vicky that are not represented in an EU2 province (Roms, Jews, various Indian cultures, Lapps etc.) in, and you have a good pop conversion.

Edit: D'oh, a digit wrong.

 

[C.N.]

I converted the 1795 scenario and tried to play it. I found a big problem - I couldn't trade machine parts and they didn't show up in the production list. I had a machine parts factory. It confused me until I realized that a trade goods doesn't show up in the trade and production lists until someone gets the invention that triggers it.

BTW, it seems that nations goes civilized too easily. All Asian countries became civlized when I converted the 1795 scenario. The only ones that were uncivilized was Sokoto, Zulu, Ethiopia, Egypt (Nubia really) and Cherokee.

 

[unmerged(16961)]

Hmm, perhaps you're right about trade unions.

I think the naval/land and quality/quantity slider should have an effect, too... perhaps the naval/land one provides a bonus technology or two, distributed as per the slider, while quantity provides a small starting mob pool, and quality a bonus division or two in the capital? Naval/Land could affect the academic establishments, too (though only in the extreme positions)

And national value (just ideas, especially):

Aristocracy: Order

Freedom: Freedom

Free Trade: Equality

Also, should constitutions be hardcoded? They seem especially hard to convert...

Free Trade is the very antithesis of equality. No one is equal in a free trade system.

Liberty and Equality are opposites.

Free Trade=Liberty; that is, the right to advance your own interests freely, and to attain more money than other people, thus becoming unequal.
Equality=Socialism; that is, the desire for each individual in the society to have identical rights and possessions.

 

[montyP]

I converted the 1795 scenario and tried to play it. I found a big problem - I couldn't trade machine parts and they didn't show up in the production list. I had a machine parts factory. It confused me until I realized that a trade goods doesn't show up in the trade and production lists until someone gets the invention that triggers it.

It's an oddity in Vic. It doesn't matter if all countries has right tech, they still can't get machine parts. The thing to solve it is load a GC before you load a converted game.

BTW, it seems that nations goes civilized too easily. All Asian countries became civlized when I converted the 1795 scenario. The only ones that were uncivilized was Sokoto, Zulu, Ethiopia, Egypt (Nubia really) and Cherokee.

Yea, we have to work on those values. Right now, a country gets uncivilized if it has army and navy tech below 35, and trade and infra below 5. If for example it has infra 6 it gets civilized. Maybe raise the army and navy values to 40? or check if has reached all levels before civilizing it...

 

[C.N.]

Sure, that sounds fair. But shouldn't the values be higher/lower? It should be pretty hard to get Liberty or Equality.

Maybe. How about this: We take a look at France and USA in the 1795 scenario. They should both convert to Liberty. (Finding an example for Equality is harder.)

France 1795:
aristocracy = 1
centralization = 8
innovative = 8
mercantilism = 1
offensive = 5
land = 7
quality = 7
serfdom = 0
USA 1795:
aristocracy = 0
centralization = 6
innovative = 6
mercantilism = 0
offensive = 5
land = 5
quality = 5
serfdom = 0
Also USA 1773:
aristocracy = 1
centralization = 5
innovative = 8
mercantilism = 2
offensive = 4
land = 5
quality = 6
serfdom = 1
It seems that the aristocracy requirement can be made narrower (<= 2?), the innovative requirement can't be moved and the mercantilism requirement can also be made narrower.

 

[C.N.]

It's an oddity in Vic. It doesn't matter if all countries has right tech, they still can't get machine parts. The thing to solve it is load a GC before you load a converted game.

It doesn't help to add the machine parts invention (whatever it is named)?

Yea, we have to work on those values. Right now, a country gets uncivilized if it has army and navy tech below 35, and trade and infra below 5. If for example it has infra 6 it gets civilized. Maybe raise the army and navy values to 40? or check if has reached all levels before civilizing it...

It is the trade levels that are the problem. Take a look that the data:

China 1795:
land = { level = 33 value = 0 }
naval = { level = 25 value = 0 }
stability = { level = 3 value = 0 }
trade = { level = 6 value = 0 }
infra = { level = 4 value = 0 }

Japan 1795:
land = { level = 33 value = 0 }
naval = { level = 25 value = 0 }
stability = { level = 3 value = 0 }
trade = { level = 5 value = 0 }
infra = { level = 4 value = 0 }

Dai Viet 1795:
land = { level = 33 value = 0 }
naval = { level = 25 value = 0 }
stability = { level = 3 value = 0 }
trade = { level = 5 value = 0 }
infra = { level = 4 value = 0 }

Afghanistan 1795:
land = { level = 30 value = 0 }
naval = { level = 10 value = 0 }
stability = { level = 3 value = 0 }
trade = { level = 5 value = 0 }
infra = { level = 4 value = 0 }

 

[unmerged(10564)]

Hehe, it will be released when ready :rofl:

No, seriously I was planning on putting it up sometime during this week. I was planing on including voting_rights, press_rights, political_parties, trade_unions, public_meetings and national_value in the converter before I do it though.

As a little teaser I have included:
-Totally reworked North America and Siberia, and added a lot of changes in the “country.txt” file. This to solve navy coversion oddities.
-Navy conversion.
-Relation conversion.
-Badboy value conversion.
-Diplomatic influence conversion.
-You should get more flags to choose from at start up.

This sounds awesome montyp! You should get a shrine built in your honour!

 

[montyP]

This sounds awesome montyp! You should get a shrine built in your honour!

 

[montyP]

It doesn't help to add the machine parts invention (whatever it is named)?

Nope! If somebody has a solution to it, it would be GREAT.

It is the trade levels that are the problem. Take a look that the data:

China 1795:
land = { level = 33 value = 0 }
naval = { level = 25 value = 0 }
stability = { level = 3 value = 0 }
trade = { level = 6 value = 0 }
infra = { level = 4 value = 0 }

Japan 1795:
land = { level = 33 value = 0 }
naval = { level = 25 value = 0 }
stability = { level = 3 value = 0 }
trade = { level = 5 value = 0 }
infra = { level = 4 value = 0 }

Dai Viet 1795:
land = { level = 33 value = 0 }
naval = { level = 25 value = 0 }
stability = { level = 3 value = 0 }
trade = { level = 5 value = 0 }
infra = { level = 4 value = 0 }

Afghanistan 1795:
land = { level = 30 value = 0 }
naval = { level = 10 value = 0 }
stability = { level = 3 value = 0 }
trade = { level = 5 value = 0 }
infra = { level = 4 value = 0 }

This has to be discussed. Some people think the values are to high (don't know how far they got in the game though)...

But I agree with you, the countries shouldn't be civilized with those values... Maybe raise trade to 6?

 

[montyP]

I've been following this project closely, and I like what I see.

A few humble suggestions:

1. EU2 Great Naval shipyard should equal a Clipper Factory in Vicky.
2. Conscription center should equal an ammunition and a small arms factory.

Yea, I think a country should get rewarded somehow for these buildings.

3. Army conversion should not only be based on civilised/uncivilised - if the nation has reached a certain tech level (say level 20 land), but will be uncivilised, they should get native quality regulars, not irregulars.

But.. you have to reach at least "Flintlock Rifles" to be able to build infantry in Vic. How do we handle that?

As for pop conversion, I think you should take a look a the Vanilla Vic combined Euro population (and perhaps Asian as well) and multiply the EU2 population at end game so that it roughly fits. Perhaps the factor is, say, 3. Multiply the EU2 province population with 3 and you get the Vicky population.

As for cultures and religion, I think 70% should be of the culture and religion of the EU2 province, while 30% should be the culture and religion of the neighbouring provinces.

Take for example an EU2 province - say Trebizond. It ends the game as Greek, Orthodox. Kastamnou to the west is Turkish, Orthodox, Armenia to the east is Armenian, Orthodox, Angora to the south is Turkish, Sunni and Georgia to the north is Georgian, Orthodox.

Thus, the Vicky province representing Trebizond should be

70% Greek, Orthodox
7,5% Turkish, Orthodox
7,5% Turkish, Sunni
7,5% Armenian, Orthodox
7,5% Georgian, Orthodox

Provinces in the midst of a culture group (such as the centre of Sweden) will be 100% same culture and religion, while border regions will be more multi-ethnic.

Then sprinkle the minority groups of Vicky that are not represented in an EU2 province (Roms, Jews, various Indian cultures, Lapps etc.) in, and you have a good pop conversion.

Edit: D'oh, a digit wrong.

An interesting idea, but it might be very difficult to do (if not almost imposible) as the converter has no idea which provinces borders which (we'd have to build a separate file that has that information). What we could do though is use the original EU2 culture and add it as a minority if the culture has changed. Same with religion.

 

[unmerged(31960)]

i don't know if you take inflation values and convert them into something in game, but i think they should be taken in count, lets say for example, if you have a X% of inflantion you get a increase/decrease in the following things:
- Building cost modifier: This is obvious to do but i have a suggestion about this, because almost every person ends the game with 1-10% inflation, the modifier should be given a decrese lets say like 1%=4.5% decrease and with higher values like 11%=0.5 increase.
a small example
/ % ][ + or - /
/ 0 ][ -5 cost /
/ 5 ][-2.5 cost /
/ 10 ][ 0 /
/ 20 ][ +5 cost /
/ 50 ][ +20 cost /
/ 100 ][ +45 cost/

- Tax: In real world the inflation makes the people buy less because the things are more expensive, following this, is the people can buy less, the country gets less taxes, so like cost modifier i propose that the taxe should be modified but the zero should be in the 20% inflation, if you don't undestand, here i put an example
0% inflation = +10 tax efficiency
10% = +5
20% = 0
30% = -5
40% = -10
100% = -40

Pls tell me your toughts about this, and if is this posible.

EDIT: BTW i started thinking about this, just after i finished a plan for a really good exploit for the convertor, that is getting a lot of loans in EU2 6 months before you convert the game to VIctoria, that way you get a lot of money and the only things you loose are morale (no use for victoria) and prestige i think, and of course a lot of inflation.

PD: i foud a bug, Timurid Empire doesn't convert to Victoria, all their territory becomes uncolonized.

 

[montyP]

i don't know if you take inflation values and convert them into something in game, but i think they should be taken in count, lets say for example, if you have a X% of inflantion you get a increase/decrease in the following things:
- Building cost modifier: This is obvious to do but i have a suggestion about this, because almost every person ends the game with 1-10% inflation, the modifier should be given a decrese lets say like 1%=4.5% decrease and with higher values like 11%=0.5 increase.
a small example
/ % ][ + or - /
/ 0 ][ -5 cost /
/ 5 ][-2.5 cost /
/ 10 ][ 0 /
/ 20 ][ +5 cost /
/ 50 ][ +20 cost /
/ 100 ][ +45 cost/

- Tax: In real world the inflation makes the people buy less because the things are more expensive, following this, is the people can buy less, the country gets less taxes, so like cost modifier i propose that the taxe should be modified but the zero should be in the 20% inflation, if you don't undestand, here i put an example
0% inflation = +10 tax efficiency
10% = +5
20% = 0
30% = -5
40% = -10
100% = -40

Pls tell me your toughts about this, and if is this posible.

EDIT: BTW i started thinking about this, just after i finished a plan for a really good exploit for the convertor, that is getting a lot of loans in EU2 6 months before you convert the game to VIctoria, that way you get a lot of money and the only things you loose are morale (no use for victoria) and prestige i think, and of course a lot of inflation.

That's a really good idea. At this moment inflation is only used to calculate how much money you get out of your EU2 money, but this adds a new dimension to it. Is 1.000 the default value for "tax_eff" and "factory_cost_mod"?

Maybe we should take a look at loans to? Convert them to Vic loans?

PD: i foud a bug, Timurid Empire doesn't convert to Victoria, all their territory becomes uncolonized.

Ironfoundersson could probably answer this better, but it's not really a bug. The converter doesn't create Timurid Empire because it doesn't exist in Vic. What we should do is to find a country to merge it with. Ironfoudersson?

 

[unmerged(31960)]

yeah, thats what i was going to say, Loans should be added to Victoria loans but in a way they affect economy so the people will think it twice when taking a loan, something like a EU loan 200 = Victoria loan 2000 oh and about loans from countries (very important in MP) they should be putted in the same way for the reciver and for the giver, it should be putted as a negative value. Example Brangeburg has a loan from Mameluks the loan is 200 ducats, Brandenburg gets a 2000 debt and Mameluks get a -2000 debt, what do you think?

 

[C.N.]

Ironfoundersson could probably answer this better, but it's not really a bug. The converter doesn't create Timurid Empire because it doesn't exist in Vic. What we should do is to find a country to merge it with. Ironfoudersson?

Mughalistan? The Timurid Empire becomes the Mughal Empire in EU2.

 

[C.N.]

But I agree with you, the countries shouldn't be civilized with those values... Maybe raise trade to 6?

Sounds like a good solution.

 

[unmerged(9404)]

Ironfoundersson could probably answer this better, but it's not really a bug. The converter doesn't create Timurid Empire because it doesn't exist in Vic. What we should do is to find a country to merge it with. Ironfoudersson?

The timurud empire should cease to exist in the begnning of the 16th century by event.

But the Timurud Empire could be merged with Mughalistan

 

[montyP]

yeah, thats what i was going to say, Loans should be added to Victoria loans but in a way they affect economy so the people will think it twice when taking a loan, something like a EU loan 200 = Victoria loan 2000 oh and about loans from countries (very important in MP) they should be putted in the same way for the reciver and for the giver, it should be putted as a negative value. Example Brangeburg has a loan from Mameluks the loan is 200 ducats, Brandenburg gets a 2000 debt and Mameluks get a -2000 debt, what do you think?

The loans are now converted in the same way as EU2 money is ((loan * 50) / (1 + inflation)). I added it and put it up in the latest version... Pls try it out and tell me what you think... I have not included a coutrys own outstanding loans though...