Facelifting France: Map, mechanics and more

[Isildur9526]

Note: This is a work in progress.

Hello all, and welcome!

The purpose of this thread is to compile my own suggestions for how to improve France (a nation currently portrayed anachronistically as being a homogeneous blob) in the hope that some of these ideas may find their way into the game.

To start, I am going to say that this is in no way a buff or a nerf to France, but rather an overhaul. The main challenge I have faced in compiling these suggestions, and the biggest question for whoever at Paradox reads this to consider: How do we make France more interesting, immersive and historically accurate, but also bring plenty of challenges at the same time?

With that question in mind, I’ll go through a comprehensive list of the changes that I am proposing in posts throughout this thread, complete with my reasoning for each change.

NB: Everything I post in this thread may be subject to change when necessary.

Table of contents.
Part I.1: The Map.
Part I.2: Map Miscellanea.
Part II: France's Subjects.
Part III: Introducing the Appanage.

Forthcoming Parts.
Part IV: Royal Authority.
Part V: Occitania.

 

[Maximus Light]

Here are some more maps for dates close to 1444:
View attachment 433972

View attachment 433973

Man, this just reminded me of my pet-peev with Bar, Bar-le-Duc is where Verdun should be except on the opposite side of the river. The the actual Bar-le-Duc should be next to the river flowing into Champagne just south of the bend before it flows into Champagne at that. (It barely even qualifies to be in the EU4 province). Not to mention Verdun is larger (at least at this time don't know about 1444).
I almost feel like Bar should be split in two, one so the current city/town can be labeled Verdun and one so the Bar-le-Duc is actually in Bar solidly.

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

As I understand it, Appanages as you are presenting them would work very similar to Daimyo's, correct? That is a great way to go about it, and far more dynamic than the existing vassal system!

Would the player be able to create new appanages as France (maybe for the sake of roleplaying or whatever other reason)? Or would the only appanages be the tags that start off as them in 1444?

As many have pointed out, Fiefs would probably be a better term. A better example of appanages would be Russian subjects in this time period, or in some ways the Crown of Aragon, as in those cases heirs or other members of the same dynasty would be allowed to rule over smaller subject states (i.e. John II of Aragon, who ruled as King of Navarre and King of Sicily while he was still the heir to the Aragonese throne). However, since many of the French fiefs were ruled by cadet branches of the House of Capet/Valois, I can overlook it as just semantics.

Again, great work with these suggestions, and I can't wait to see what's coming next!

 

[The Prussian Blackadder]

I'm very pleased that you updated this thread, I was disappointed that it hadn't been updated in a while. I believe your ideas for Appanages would bring greater balance to the swarm which was present in pre-1.12 EU, especially on the points of not allowing France to join their offensive wars, and vice-versa for France.

I believe it brings a sense of realism to how loyal (or disloyal) the French minors really were at the time; and further prevents France from steamrolling with their horde as they would previously. I curious to see how the Appanages will be uniquely annexed and the other plans you'll be writing.

Can't wait to read Part IV!

 

[Canute VII]

Just a few points on the "mechanics" of appanages, that I feel should be considered here:

• appanages could be created like "client states"
• they should definitely have a very similar colour as the overlord, no pink subjects on french territory please....
• they would start with a ruler of the royal family of its overlord
• appanages would have -20% liberty desire as long as the ruler family is the same as the overlord ruler family
• once the appanage's ruling family changes, the "appanage" changes into a "fief" and looses its -20% liberty desire. It would need a diplomatic relations slot.
• Not sure if fief=vassal or if fief should a special subject type, but I tend to say: if in doubt, let's keep it simple
• if the appanage has no heir, then the overlord can demand re-incorporation into its realm, probably best represented with a sizable discount on integration cost
• if the overlord has no heir, he can call the ruler of one of its appanages to sit on its throne i.e. be the new heir; when the overlord ruler dies, the appanage ruler would become king and the appanage would become a PU
• this also means that it becomes a bit more unlikely, that any foreign power can establish a PU over the overlord (I'm sick of Russia having PU France...)
• disinheriting a weak heir may be even more desirable if there is a strong appanage ruler available to take its place
• royal marriages between overlord and appanages should probably be prohibited
• the strategy of the "appanage game" would be to create a few appanages to have always available a new king, even without a proper own heir. Even more so: one can choose the best ruler from all the appanages. The more appanages one has, the greater the choice of possible new rulers.
• (an alternative way to represent things, could be some kind of "election" mechanic like the polish sejm, but only appanages/vassals can support an heir, no outsiders)
• on the other hand, the more appanages one has, the greater the risk, that one of these will be taken over by another family and turn into a "regular" fief. If this happens more than once, one could face having a few vassals that occupy a diplomatic relation slot each and one may be tempted to release these vassals, reconquer them or these vassals may revolt....

 

[Metroidkirby]

I think the better term to use would be "Fief"

I don't think so, because an appanage is a special fief, which has peculiar rules that could bring new things to the game.

A Fief is basically a subject that is tied very closely to its parent nation. Historically, when a fief of France died with no legitimate heir, the fief would be reincorporated into the Crown. This is also partially how France's Crown Lands expanded out of Ile-de-France. This is because, compared to a vassal, these Lords, Viscounts, Counts and Dukes held their titles because the French King said it so, and so when their dynasty died it was reincorporated.

The annexation of western Burgundy is a key example of this in action. The line died out and so the lands within the Kingdom of France returned to the Crown.

Your definition and your exemple are opposed.

If it was just a "fief", then Marie (the daughter of Charles the bold) would have been recognized by the french king as the heir of all of Burgundy. It wasn't the case precisely because it was an appanage and not something else (in appanages, women were excluded from the succession).

You have dozens of exemples were it wasn't an appanage and where the king get nothing when the heir was a woman: in 1137, when Guillaume X duke of Aquitaine died, his daughter Aliénor was crowned duchess of Aquitaine (I took Aliénor as exemple because she's quite famous).

(NB: if you were talking about the event of 1361, It still would be a wrong exemple, as Jean II was the heir of the duke of Burgundy, therefore inheriting the dukedom as the heir, and not as a king inheriting a fief without lord)

A point on Burgundy, which led to the Burgundian Succession, is that the burgundian nobility contested the quality of "appanage" (so for the french king it was an appanage, and for the burgundian nobility it wasn't: therefore the succession crisis) So the quality or not of appanage should be tied to how the BI will be rework.


I also add that your definition of "appanage" is not the definition of a french "appanage" :
"HIST: Portion du domaine royal dévolue aux frères ou aux fils puînés du roi jusqu'à extinction de sa lignée mâle." (Dictionary "Le petit Larousse" 2006)
"Historical: Part of the royal domain, given to brothers or younger sons, until the end of the male lineage" (handmade translation)

I don't think "appanages" have the same rules in all countries, as you miss the point about women, and about the form it can took. I guess the rules are different in each country.


Edit: I mostly speak about appanages, but honestly with all you can tell about appanages alone, you should see that if you put a subject type "fief" you'll have dozens of different situations under one name, just like vassal right now, therefore not resolving the situation.

 

[Scorpene]

@neondt serious question here, can we propose some new French / Italian event here?
Events linked to the provinces (i have plenty of Idea for Toulon and other Harbour, linked to the wish of Richelieu and Colbert to conquer the sea and make France a naval power*), or to the History (Maison du Roy) mainly?


Or Paradox only wants us to speak about provinces?

* I've prepared that topic for such a long time, i feel it might be an interesting add for France (but also UK, incidently, and Netherland) in the Q4. That would give more flavour to naval combat but also to the economic side of building a fleet.

 

[Canute VII]

It's also interesting thinking about how "appanages" would relate to the setup in Persia, with the Timurids having a bunch of vassals "ruled by sons and grandsons" of Shah Rukh, who keeps this empire together by virtue of a personal modifier (-50% liberty desire in vassals).

Appanage mechanic then could be available to cultures that operate under a "monogyn primogenitur" model. Countries that operate under a "poligyn dynastic" model could have another mechanic, that could also model the Timurid situation (probably not to be introduced in the european patch though).

 

[neondt]

@neondt serious question here, can we propose some new French / Italian event here?
Events linked to the provinces (i have plenty of Idea for Toulon and other Harbour, linked to the wish of Richelieu and Colbert to conquer the sea and make France a naval power*), or to the History (Maison du Roy) mainly?


Or Paradox only wants us to speak about provinces?

* I've prepared that topic for such a long time, i feel it might be an interesting add for France (but also UK, incidently, and Netherland) in the Q4. That would give more flavour to naval combat but also to the economic side of building a fleet.

Go ahead. We're open to suggestions on all kinds of content - there's still a great deal of planning left to do.

 

[NaiveCarto]

First of all best map I've found would be this:

while the quality is, to be honest, a little not fine.
so I find it from Deviantart, I hope it shall not be a sin.
Thanks to nanwe01 for this great map.

 

[Mingmung]

while the quality is, to be honest, a little not fine.
so I find it from Deviantart, I hope it shall not be a sin.
Thanks to nanwe01 for this great map.

View attachment 455692

This map is an alternate-history one.

 

[Grandur]

Oooh, great Idea to propose some event ! I worked on a few for the south-west of France !

With the idea of spliting the province of Bearn in three, Bearn, Bigorre and Foix, a lot of event can dynamise this area :
-The county of Bigorre was claims by a lot of people : the King of England, the King of France and the King of Navarre. After a trial in the XIVth century, the County was kept by France, but the king of Navarre ultimatly take it back, so an event could lead Navarre or Castille if they are the overlord of the basque country to demand the province at the vassal who have it ? (Or at France if the vassal is already absorbed)
-I don't have a particular event in mind, but during the reformation, if the Béarn was a stronghold of the reformed faith, the Bigorre stay catholic and fight very hard against the reformation (and they loose to the Albret family ruling Bearn and Navarre, leading to the sack of the Capital of the County, Tarbes) So maybe it can be some good event idea ?
-Far after in the game, Napoleon use the city of Tarbes, the Capital of the County of Bigorre, to create a new race of horse, the Anglo-Arabian. With the restauration of the National stud farm in the city, the event could lead to increase of production and the trade good becoming horse instead of wheat ?
-For the County of Foix, in 1479, the dynasty ruling Foix and Navarre merge and the destiny of the two country fuse little by little with time, maybe an event could give a claim, maybe permanant, to both country on each other ?
-Again, for the county of Foix, the leader of the country is at the time Gaston IV de Foix-Béarn, and he bought the 26 december 1447 the province of Narbonne : it could be an interesting event, maybe simply on offer for buying the province, or France which have an event offering to cede the province in exchange of a lower liberty desire, or keeping it with malus ?

And for now, I think it's a good start, I hope that you will find the event interesting !

 

[Isildur9526]

But in here I make to you a suggestion: I play in spanish, so I don't know very well how it's called in english, but in Influence (Influencia) there is the option to Impose Peace (Imponer Paz) that can make two nations make peace like you're saying. Wouldn't it be better if the overlord has a special modificator that gives +50 to the Imposed Peace with a fief? It could be eather in a war with another fief or in a war with an outsider.
And nations like Burgundy, that would start with a high liberty desire and autonomy could for instance reject the Imposed Peace while nations like Bourbon would accept France's demands.
Lastly, only way to inherit fiefs from France would be if the subject's ruler dies without heir. If this happens and the fief has a PU or a vassal, the minors would be released from the PU and France would inherit the fief. But if the fief's ruler dies without an heir and they have a royal marriage with an outside force that could claim the fief in a PU, then a Succesion War could be declared where the overlord would be the defendant and the aggresor would be the outside nation.
If a player playing as France doesn't want to wait to inherit a fief, they could be released with a truce, but it would damage the opinion of all other fiefs, so it could make the fiefs rebellious as to align with enemies of their overlord.
Well that's my suggestion to this new vassal form (I wouldn't make it a new government form). Hope you liked it and I expect some criticism .

The "Enforce Peace" diplomatic action is one of those actions that I've never had to touch in a campaign, so making it a part of the system might be problematic unless the action itself is made more relevant.
Also, as I will discuss in Part IV, securing an heir will be very important to the survival of the vassals, as France will be unable to annex them if they have heirs. However, my approach to annexing vassals will be very unique.

 

[NaiveCarto]

This map is an alternate-history one.

Yeah, after my carefully read, this map shows not small issues when you try to treat it as a map of Ancien Regime...
while, I have no way to find out a better one unless I remake one France map according to an old atlas....

 

[NaiveCarto]

try to revise this map, while find not easy on it......

 

[Metroidkirby]

Not sure what you are doing with your map @NaiveCarto , redrawing the généralités ?

There is this map on wikipedia which can be more readable if someone want to spend time putting colors on the borders rather than letting all be black dotten line:

 

[JSparks101]

I don't think so, because an appanage is a special fief, which has peculiar rules that could bring new things to the game.



Your definition and your exemple are opposed.

If it was just a "fief", then Marie (the daughter of Charles the bold) would have been recognized by the french king as the heir of all of Burgundy. It wasn't the case precisely because it was an appanage and not something else (in appanages, women were excluded from the succession).

You have dozens of exemples were it wasn't an appanage and where the king get nothing when the heir was a woman: in 1137, when Guillaume X duke of Aquitaine died, his daughter Aliénor was crowned duchess of Aquitaine (I took Aliénor as exemple because she's quite famous).

(NB: if you were talking about the event of 1361, It still would be a wrong exemple, as Jean II was the heir of the duke of Burgundy, therefore inheriting the dukedom as the heir, and not as a king inheriting a fief without lord)

A point on Burgundy, which led to the Burgundian Succession, is that the burgundian nobility contested the quality of "appanage" (so for the french king it was an appanage, and for the burgundian nobility it wasn't: therefore the succession crisis) So the quality or not of appanage should be tied to how the BI will be rework.


I also add that your definition of "appanage" is not the definition of a french "appanage" :
"HIST: Portion du domaine royal dévolue aux frères ou aux fils puînés du roi jusqu'à extinction de sa lignée mâle." (Dictionary "Le petit Larousse" 2006)
"Historical: Part of the royal domain, given to brothers or younger sons, until the end of the male lineage" (handmade translation)

I don't think "appanages" have the same rules in all countries, as you miss the point about women, and about the form it can took. I guess the rules are different in each country.


Edit: I mostly speak about appanages, but honestly with all you can tell about appanages alone, you should see that if you put a subject type "fief" you'll have dozens of different situations under one name, just like vassal right now, therefore not resolving the situation.

Urm, even your definiton of Appanage is the exact same as mine. Given to a brother or son second son. Burgundy was not an appanage, it did not split as a junior branch of the Kings of France, but rather as a seperate Duchy who's right to rule is granted by the King. I believe you are referring to the period of Mary of Burgundy, who was just the heir and therefore the exact same as before. Of course their is all the mess with her marrying certain people etc but that doesn't change her situation (other than it being a PU equivalent in game rather than direct control as shown by the event, "Burgundian Inheritance". A Fief is a territory whose ruler is granted their right to rule by a superior ruler. A vassal in the post-Medieval sense is where a nation enforced their sovereignty on the state (aka Wallachia under Ottomans).

 

[JSparks101]

Also, women were excluded from succession due to Salic Law, not due to Appanages (an appanage can be inherited by a women, its just very very uncommon). Salic Law is the same reason England did not officially become rulers of France since it would pass the claim via a women to get to the English King.

 

[NaiveCarto]

Not sure what you are doing with your map @NaiveCarto , redrawing the généralités ?

There is this map on wikipedia which can be more readable if someone want to spend time putting colors on the borders rather than letting all be black dotten line:

in fact not redraw a map based on generalites, otherwise there shall be élections or Sénéchaussées, but a map to revise the alt-map with more pays actually existed just before 1789.

 

[The Prussian Blackadder]

Urm, even your definiton of Appanage is the exact same as mine. Given to a brother or son second son. Burgundy was not an appanage, it did not split as a junior branch of the Kings of France, but rather as a seperate Duchy who's right to rule is granted by the King. I believe you are referring to the period of Mary of Burgundy, who was just the heir and therefore the exact same as before. Of course their is all the mess with her marrying certain people etc but that doesn't change her situation (other than it being a PU equivalent in game rather than direct control as shown by the event, "Burgundian Inheritance". A Fief is a territory whose ruler is granted their right to rule by a superior ruler. A vassal in the post-Medieval sense is where a nation enforced their sovereignty on the state (aka Wallachia under Ottomans).

I would largely agree with this interpretation (and the definition of an appanage), but I would say Burgundy was an appanage, though only in name. Charles the Bold was of the house d'Valois-Bourgogne, which was a cadet branch of the Valois. John II granted Philip the Burgundian lands in 1363, making it an appanage in practice. Though due to a large amount of independence, the lands outside of the French de jure realm, and with little ability for the Valois to properly maintain a hold on their de jure lands; Burgundy was, therefore, de facto independent.

If we move to the state of the game in 1444, I would definitely not list Burgundy as an appanage either. This is due to the above statements (1) but also due to balance reasons (2) with historical grounding.

1. It is well-known that Charles and Louis XI had a burning dislike of each other, which was due to the continuous Burgundian support of the English and Louis XI's attempts at curbing the power of the appanages; so it only makes sense to keep Burgundy independent.
2. For balance reasons, this separation makes even more sense. France is already a strong nation at the start, and adding Burgundy would make France near unstoppable (and almost AI capable) in 1444, especially since Burgundy was practically independent of France anyway.

 

[Metroidkirby]

Urm, even your definiton of Appanage is the exact same as mine.

No. Your definition of appanage and mine are not the same, mine is included in yours, yours is much larger.

a provision made for the maintenance of the younger children of kings and princes, consisting of a gift of land, an official position, or money.

Your definition is not excluding women, and your definition add the possibilities of "official position" or "money" rather than a land.

Given to a brother or son second son. Burgundy was not an appanage, it did not split as a junior branch of the Kings of France, but rather as a seperate Duchy who's right to rule is granted by the King. I believe you are referring to the period of Mary of Burgundy, who was just the heir and therefore the exact same as before. Of course their is all the mess with her marrying certain people etc but that doesn't change her situation (other than it being a PU equivalent in game rather than direct control as shown by the event, "Burgundian Inheritance". A Fief is a territory whose ruler is granted their right to rule by a superior ruler. A vassal in the post-Medieval sense is where a nation enforced their sovereignty on the state (aka Wallachia under Ottomans).

No one is contesting the quality of fief here. An appanage is a special fief, and Burgundy fullfills all criteria to be qualified as one.
It was a land from the royal domain, given to the fourth son of king Jean II. It became an appanage the very moment Jean II gave it to his son Philippe.
Perhaps you know the latin locution: "Specialia Generalibus Derogant" ? It means that the special situation (appanage here) applied rather then the normal one (fief here).
If it was given to someone not beiing the son or the brother of the king, then it wouldn't be an appanage but a fief.
Appanages have special succession rules, therefore Marie couldn't be heir.
That's why the burgundian nobility contested this qualification: they wanted Marie to be their Duchess.