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Welcome back Podcat. Nice to hear your plans for the future and to see something concrete suggesting that there will be another DLC along in good time: as usual, a DLC accompanied by a free patch that will have the fixes for some of the issues that some folks are longing for.
 
Many of these issues have been around since 1.0 (shuffling, suicidal naval transport, African safaris). 1.3.3 came out and nerfed ai Germany and Italy into baby seal territory with the resource and production changes and province stacking. Are these issues complained about on the forum considered by PDS to be issues to be fixed? Who knows

I know from reading another thread @podcat and @SteelVolt mentioned that division shuffling is being worked on, so why couldn't that at least be mentioned in the Diary? "Hey, we have heard you. Division shuffling is being worked on, as are some of the other problems like problem x, y and z that our customers have brought our attention". Is it that hard to be responsive to your customers?

The difference between you and I is how much credibility Podcat has with us. I for one have doubt and skepticism simply because he has said things in the past that don't add up.
This, right here, is why people will never be satisfied about what developpers say or don't say.

  • If no one says anything, Paradox should communicate more and disrespects the customer who has a right to know what the devs think.
  • If someone comes and talks about what the devs are doing, they did not talk about the right things, and disrespect the customer by mentionning things that no one (code word for "me and those who agree with me") cares about.
  • If someone comes and talks about AI issues that are being worked on, they are too vague and didn't talk about it in the proper thread, so they again disrespect the customer.
  • If someone comes and give more specific information about the right issues in the right thread, he gets nominally accused of lying because people don't belive him.
If I'm exaggerating, it's not by much.
Basically, there are people who want changes (that they may or may not be able to express in words) to the game, and want certain issues to be solved. They can't stand any delay, and apparently won't acknowledge that the full picture is too complicated to be explained to thousands of people from different backgrounds.

And that's it. Everything about Paradox not communicating properly is the frustration speaking, as opposed to a legitimate criticism of the dev diaries.
 
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Now this is a fair point (something I'm not surprised about, as you're a fair poster :)) - if, instead of features, the diary had focussed on a roadmap along these lines that would definitely have been useful and a good approach. ...... If Podcat had the time, I think it'd even be worth having a special 'bonus' roadmap DD, or to bump next week's content to put this in.
Roadmap. A real roadmap is a fixed thing. I don't think the future of HOI IV is that concrete. Not that I don't think they have plans, but I think it is more something written on a whiteboard and subject to major change. Just look at the title of this DD 'Reflections and Romania'. As earlier brought up is how much trust/confidence people have or don't have in podcat. As those who have been here for sometime know I have had my disagreements with design decisions with him. I have come to learn that he is willing to consider other opinions & rethink his positions. He seems to have done that over reaction to TfV DLC. Is the next DLC going to meet everyone's expectations? No.

So if the expansion after the next one get completely changed and what some people were hoping for gets cuts the Revolt Risk would rise greatly.


There is only so many times you can tell people "It's being worked on" before they stop believing you.
I think maybe a bunch of people don't read much of the forum and just come & read the DDs. They may not even read much of the later responses of the Devs in the DDs. So if not mentioned in a DD they don't know about it. So maybe things that are being worked on should be bullet pointed in the main part of the DD.
 
I think maybe a bunch of people don't read much of the forum and just come & read the DDs. They may not even read much of the later responses of the Devs in the DDs. So if not mentioned in a DD they don't know about it. So maybe things that are being worked on should be bullet pointed in the main part of the DD.

That's a very good idea and might cut down the amount of persons spitting their dummies out. ;)
 
Thank you @podcat and Team for your good and hard work.

I greatly appreciate that you take the time to write those diaries that you are not in any way obligated to do (well maybe your boss ordered you to do them :p).

[Sarcasm]
So I think you should sell your diaries, that way at least people having bought that work would have a valid reason to complain about the content of the diary if they don't like it.
[/Sarcasm]

We can complain that the content of the Romanian tree is not to our liking (in my case i'm perfectly satisfied with it), we cannot however complain that they tell us about the romanian focus tree, the team is perfectly free to choose what to tell us and when.

I do not consider that these dev diaries are somehow owed to us, and I am grateful that the team engages with the community and listens to it as much as they can. It is very rare in the industry and almost unheard of from companies that have a big community.
 
Roadmap. A real roadmap is a fixed thing. I don't think the future of HOI IV is that concrete. Not that I don't think they have plans, but I think it is more something written on a whiteboard and subject to major change. Just look at the title of this DD 'Reflections and Romania'. As earlier brought up is how much trust/confidence people have or don't have in podcat. As those who have been here for sometime know I have had my disagreements with design decisions with him. I have come to learn that he is willing to consider other opinions & rethink his positions. He seems to have done that over reaction to TfV DLC. Is the next DLC going to meet everyone's expectations? No.

So if the expansion after the next one get completely changed and what some people were hoping for gets cuts the Revolt Risk would rise greatly.

Aye, sorry, I was more just thinking about the planned content for this DLC/Patch, and not a 'firm' road map, per se - but you're right, in that there's more than a small risk anything that was cut would cause more trouble. It just sounded a good idea from Meglok in terms of putting people's minds at ease. Definitely not something we're owed or anything like that (we've had a seven week break from DDs, and it feels like a long time, but back in the day, news about most an expansion under development every seven weeks would probably be about normal, if we were lucky!)
 
On the contrary, I think it is a major boon that devs are allowed and supposed to interact with the community directly, rather than getting the reader's digest version through an intermediary. We do have a community manager in @BjornB, but I'm not too sure if it will help people if he just comes by every now and then and nods politely while you tell him what we already know. There is only so many times you can tell people "It's being worked on" before they stop believing you.

Two links you may find to be interesting food for thought:

https://hbr.org/2003/07/a-better-way-to-innovate

https://www.alexandria.unisg.ch/57028/1/exploring the phenomenon.pdf
 
Will PDX revisit focus trees of major countries? Especially the ones focused on naval, air and military research. Compared to DLC focuses, the default ones looks rather bland and not entertaining at all.
For instance, France got 5 naval focuses and 8 air ones. Italy have 9 naval focuses and 5 air focuses.
Romania will get 10 naval focuses and 13 air focuses.
 
Any chance that the state of Muntenia to be split in 2? its to large compared to the other states and unrealistic, the eastern part could be called Danubius or Baragan-Dobrogea and the states of Banat and Crisana to be merged in 1 called Western Transilvanya or Banat-Crisana.
And by any chance maybe a boost in the number of slots available for Romania? i meen from the average Rural States maybe a average Developed Rural States with 4 slots each? same as Yugoslavia? I meen in the game period Romania had the almost the same GDP/Capita as all the other Eastern European nations
Cheers and nice foci for Romania :)
 
On the contrary, I think it is a major boon that devs are allowed and supposed to interact with the community directly, rather than getting the reader's digest version through an intermediary. We do have a community manager in @BjornB, but I'm not too sure if it will help people if he just comes by every now and then and nods politely while you tell him what we already know. There is only so many times you can tell people "It's being worked on" before they stop believing you.

Tbf Bjorn's primary contribution, other than sharing the odd tweet, seems to be telling people that either they stop being angry and impassioned about products that they've spent as many as $100, $200 or $300 on, or they will be on probation; that and being a delight to watch in EU4 Dev Clashes.

What you really need is someone that gets you into a meeting, stares you down, and says "Look HoI4 lads, people are really pissed off about A, B and C, it's the only thing we've been hearing about for the last 6 weeks, so we're going to give them something". I know the PDX structure seems fairly loose, but basically, you need a boss. That's the 2 cents really. People hate on publishers but in this sort of scenario, a publisher may actually be the thing you need...

The problem with the way a lot of devs 'communicate' with their members, is that they're completely human in the way they do so. They cherry pick the comments they want to hear, and deny or scream 'la la la' at all the things that don't rub them the right way. For example, this 16 page thread is by large people complaining about a DD that took 6 weeks to produce and despite all that time, didn't really give us anything that substantial. No one is disputing the amount of work that goes into Focus Trees, or how pretty this one is. But the point (whether the posts mention the AI or not) is that a focus tree was not the breaking news we expected.

And really, this would have worked nicely as one of the final DDs before the release of the DLC/Patch.

If you didn't have anything substantial this week, another week of radio silence would have been just fine.
 
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This, right here, is why people will never be satisfied about what developpers say or don't say.

  • If no one says anything, Paradox should communicate more and disrespects the customer who has a right to know what the devs think.
  • If someone comes and talks about what the devs are doing, they did not talk about the right things, and disrespect the customer by mentionning things that no one (code word for "me and those who agree with me") cares about.
  • If someone comes and talks about AI issues that are being worked on, they are too vague and didn't talk about it in the proper thread, so they again disrespect the customer.
  • If someone comes and give more specific information about the right issues in the right thread, he gets nominally accused of lying because people don't belive him.
If I'm exaggerating, it's not by much.
Basically, there are people who want changes (that they may or may not be able to express in words) to the game, and want certain issues to be solved. They can't stand any delay, and apparently won't acknowledge that the full picture is too complicated to be explained to thousands of people from different backgrounds.

And that's it. Everything about Paradox not communicating properly is the frustration speaking, as opposed to a legitimate criticism of the dev diaries.

You know I've gaming on the internet since 1993, I've double fisted the koolaid more than a few times in my life, I have been involved in more gaming communities than I can remember, I am not star dazzled or a messiah worshiper when it comes to dev posts and your post is just self serving to marginalize and mitigate criticism you don't like. You are basically creating an argument that says the criticisms in this thread are not legitimate because there is always going to be criticisms. You make absolutely no effort to distinguish that here, in the real world, there is such a thing as legitimate criticism and not all criticism is equal. You say "as opposed to legitimate criticism" but what would qualify as legitimate criticism given the 4 bullet points you made above? Nothing would. The only criticism that would be legitimate in your eyes is the criticism that you agree with which is completely subjective, because you have objectively ruled out any possibility with your 4 bullet points.

It's false equivalency reasoning, and it's just sad that you and others that agree with you, don't see it for what it is.

Take this for example :
Basically, there are people who want changes (that they may or may not be able to express in words) to the game, and want certain issues to be solved. They can't stand any delay, and apparently won't acknowledge that the full picture is too complicated to be explained to thousands of people from different backgrounds.

So Meglok and myself are just impatient customers and we never acknowledged or showed sympathy or empathy to PDS about the complicated nature of software development? Is that the argument you are trying to make? It's just absurd that this is what is being passed for as valuable discussion / debate. I'm not even going to bother quoting all the times I have, and I know Meglok has demonstrated patience, and understanding to those points.

Just to drive the point home:
Let's be honest: if the dev diary had not included a new focus tree, someone would inevitably complain that lazy Paradox relies on the modders to do the job, and how can they say it focuses on the Axis when the minors don't get any love.

That completely validates everything I'm saying to be true. And when I pressed you on this, the only criticism you had to something I actually said and argued for was my hyperbole of "perfectly content" which I owned up and said yes it's not pedantically accurate, but the main general truth of it still stands.
 
The policy as I understand it (@podcat or other Devs can correct me if i am wrong) is that the Dev Diaries are for things largely settled. Not works in progress. The twitter posts & other random forum posts can be of things that are works in progress, not officially released. So the sneak peaks are not fully ready to be explained.

No, to be fair to @Gwydion5 that was a 3rd option. I could have gone over the twitter content in more detail, but considered against it since I had already shown it and felt it would be better coming back later to remind people. Also people told me they would be super mad if all the first diary was about was talkign about the twitter teasers ;P

@podcat

Will old DLC countries also get increased immersion in the future? Right now I am thinking about the Poland - United and Ready DLC. Poland is still missing voice overs and there are only generic admiral portraits. Heck, while at it some names on the focus tree could also use some adjustments.

As a former soldier in the Polish Army I could come down to your office and help you with the voice overs all for the cost of one beer! ;)

Are you in sweden? its not totally impossible to arrange maybe

will paradox make focus trees only for a few countries or are you planning on doing for almost every country in the game?

I would love all nations to have a different tree than generic, but obvisouly this is a very long term plan to get more immersion in. It might be that for some nations it makes more sense to make "area" trees where several nations get something more appropriate for their area as well.

I was responding to a post that basically said there is no central repository where people can see a list of issues that the dev team has already acknowledged.
This has come up before and been answered, basically it would take a lot of work from our side to make such a list. We obviously can't give people access to our internal issue tracking system (and lists of 1000+ things are also not useful or easy to get an overview of as a consumer). I don't know if a little thread would help, because we wrote in the previous diary basically what we were looking at for AI and people didn't read it there, and I cant be repeating the same things in every diary either, and even if we show a little thread people would expect us not to work on anything not specifically written there and be worried.

Currently if you are looking for acknowledged issues the clearest way is to look in bug forum at threads with the paradox icon (pdx employee answered), then they are acknowledged and in our internal lists for sure.
 
So let's apply some deductive reasoning here.
  • They ran around 20 simulation games and did not notice AI Germany being beaten by Russia in most games by 41, definitely by 42.
  • They ran around 20 simulation games, did notice AI Germany being beaten by Russia in most games by 41, definitely by 42 and published 1.3.3 anyway.
  • They ran significantly less than 20 games, so few that they took AI Germany losing in 41/42 as a fluke instead of a consistent outcome.
  • They did not run any simulation games.
Now I for one believe PDS as a software game development company has enough experience developing software to have good enough QA processes to catch something as big as AI Germany losing consistently to Russia in 41. So the 1st line of deductive reasoning just doesn't make sense. Which leaves us with the last three options as being possible, which one do you think it is? You could add another option if you think there is one.
I'm pretty sure we had already discussed this in the feedback thread on the AI already, and keeping on topic is nice, but sure:
As I said Germany has statistically always lost to soviet union in all our patches, sometimes more sometimes less. We ran our games and it shows germany failing earlier than before.

Looking at reasons it was because soviet union no longer:
1) built really trash motorized divisions
2) no longer wasted lots of troops on neutral borders
3) nations overall now value their own safety over helping allies (goal: italy should better protect itself and be less soft underbelly)
Basically soviet AI had improved a lot. Germany's also improved, but soviets more. The big issue for germany was front shuffling halting their push and letting soviets overwhelm and push them back. Japan and china also had front shuffling issues limiting them, but about in equal measures so that helped to delay the conflict.
Because we changed production quite a bit we looked at that, but it did not have a very large impact on AI performance overall. It may have slightly impact things, but if so the smallest of several options.

To clarify, the reason a germany losing earlier is bad is that for minors or non UK-allies they may not have time to involve themselves in the conflict which diminishes their experience if they are trying for the historical war. We then looked at consequences and options:

1) Nerf Soviet union - Since a vast majority play germany, or end up fighting the soviets this would make their experience worse. It also feels wierd to nerf a nation for AI reasons rather than player reasons when fighting them. removing some AI improvements were also on the table, but is clearly a bad idea.
2) Buff Germany - Most people already consider germany easy to play and there are also buff sliders available so we didnt consider this a good option
3) Fix front shuffling for good and rewrite logic for how AI nations should manage exp forces - Downside is that this is not quick nor easy. both a long term problems since the start of HOI4 (and hoi3 too to a certain extent). We estimated 3-4 weeks of work if all went well.

We felt 1 and 2 would negatively impact the majority of players and 3 would take so long we couldn't wait a month to release the patch. We also looked at the feedback from the 2k or so players who had been testing the open beta of 1.3.3 for a week (I think it was?) and while there was some comments on germany soviet balance it was a minority while majority seemed to like things. So we released the beta as is with some minor tweaks and in the next dev diary we talked about how we were making front shuffling our top priority.

Was it the right choice? Up to you to decide. I think so.
 
Tbf Bjorn's primary contribution, other than sharing the odd tweet, seems to be telling people that either they stop being angry and impassioned about products that they've spent as many as $100, $200 or $300 on, or they will be on probation; that and being a delight to watch in EU4 Dev Clashes.

What you really need is someone that gets you into a meeting, stares you down, and says "Look HoI4 lads, people are really pissed off about A, B and C, it's the only thing we've been hearing about for the last 6 weeks, so we're going to give them something". I know the PDX structure seems fairly loose, but basically, you need a boss. That's the 2 cents really. People hate on publishers but in this sort of scenario, a publisher may actually be the thing you need...

Marketing and Brand Management from the publishing side already have a lot of input on the Dev Diaries and have signed off on the Dev Diary schedule. We had that meeting. We agreed that this was the way to go.

The problem with the way a lot of devs 'communicate' with their members, is that they're completely human in the way they do so. They cherry pick the comments they want to hear, and deny or scream 'la la la' at all the things that don't rub them the right way. For example, this 16 page thread is by large people complaining about a DD that took 6 weeks to produce and despite all that time, didn't really give us anything that substantial. No one is disputing the amount of work that goes into Focus Trees, or how pretty this one is. But the point (whether the posts mention the AI or not) is that a focus tree was not the breaking news we expected.

And really, this would have worked nicely as one of the final DDs before the release of the DLC/Patch.

If you didn't have anything substantial this week, another week of radio silence would have been just fine.

Given how people complained last week, I dare say another week of no DD would have led to torches and pitchforks. The simple fact is that the Romanian focus tree is perhaps the only new part of the game that is not currently completely broken. People seem to believe we have a written AI dev diary sitting around somewhere. That is not the case. You'll get it when it's ready.
 
I would love all nations to have a different tree than generic, but obvisouly this is a very long term plan to get more immersion in. It might be that for some nations it makes more sense to make "area" trees where several nations get something more appropriate for their area as well.
.
Please, Please PLEASE, I am begging you can you do a 'Weak Generic' NF tree for nations like Bhutan, Nepal, Liberia & other primitive countries?

Thanks!
 
I'm pretty sure we had already discussed this in the feedback thread on the AI already, and keeping on topic is nice, but sure:
As I said Germany has statistically always lost to soviet union in all our patches, sometimes more sometimes less. We ran our games and it shows germany failing earlier than before.

Looking at reasons it was because soviet union no longer:
1) built really trash motorized divisions
2) no longer wasted lots of troops on neutral borders
3) nations overall now value their own safety over helping allies (goal: italy should better protect itself and be less soft underbelly)
Basically soviet AI had improved a lot. Germany's also improved, but soviets more. The big issue for germany was front shuffling halting their push and letting soviets overwhelm and push them back. Japan and china also had front shuffling issues limiting them, but about in equal measures so that helped to delay the conflict.
Because we changed production quite a bit we looked at that, but it did not have a very large impact on AI performance overall. It may have slightly impact things, but if so the smallest of several options.

To clarify, the reason a germany losing earlier is bad is that for minors or non UK-allies they may not have time to involve themselves in the conflict which diminishes their experience if they are trying for the historical war. We then looked at consequences and options:

1) Nerf Soviet union - Since a vast majority play germany, or end up fighting the soviets this would make their experience worse. It also feels wierd to nerf a nation for AI reasons rather than player reasons when fighting them. removing some AI improvements were also on the table, but is clearly a bad idea.
2) Buff Germany - Most people already consider germany easy to play and there are also buff sliders available so we didnt consider this a good option
3) Fix front shuffling for good and rewrite logic for how AI nations should manage exp forces - Downside is that this is not quick nor easy. both a long term problems since the start of HOI4 (and hoi3 too to a certain extent). We estimated 3-4 weeks of work if all went well.

We felt 1 and 2 would negatively impact the majority of players and 3 would take so long we couldn't wait a month to release the patch. We also looked at the feedback from the 2k or so players who had been testing the open beta of 1.3.3 for a week (I think it was?) and while there was some comments on germany soviet balance it was a minority while majority seemed to like things. So we released the beta as is with some minor tweaks and in the next dev diary we talked about how we were making front shuffling our top priority.

Was it the right choice? Up to you to decide. I think so.

Thank you VERY MUCH for this insightful and helpful explanation.
 
Given how people complained last week, I dare say another week of no DD would have led to torches and pitchforks. The simple fact is that the Romanian focus tree is perhaps the only new part of the game that is not currently completely broken. People seem to believe we have a written AI dev diary sitting around somewhere. That is not the case. You'll get it when it's ready.

In a very scary way, it's flattering. They will burn you and your offices down out of love :p

I just figured with Mandate of Heaven and Utopia coming out, people would be kept busy - I certainly was - but I guess you guys drew the short straw on the fans as far as PDX titles go xD