Important note: erroneus borders

[Exel]

Looking at the TGW screens I noticed some major flaws:

1) Finland should have Petsamo when it's independent (ie. the borders are the same they are before the Winter War). Also, in the start of the game (1914) Finland should be part of Russia and get independent in 1917.

2) Denmark shouldn't have it's southern province Kolding. It should instead belong to Germany.

3) Germany shouldn't have Memel. It should instead belong to Russia.

4) Medina, Mecka and Sana should belong to Turkey, as well as Kuwait and Al Zahran.

5) Abu Dhabi and Muscat should belong to Arabia.

6) Spain should control Casablanca, Fez and Tlemcen.

7) Bata, Cabinda and Sao Tomé (near Belgian Kongo) should belong to France.

8) Afganistan should belong to Persia?

 

[Johan Elisson]

1) Finland did not have control of Petsamo at the time (1914). It is though possible that I've made a fault when giving the Eastern Karelia provinces to Finland. Finland is a puppet of Russia to "simulate" their semi-independency.

2) The city of Kolding was actually still Danish 1914, but this is not the main reason, it is to prevent Germany from entering the island of Fyn (Odense in the game) directly .

3) Memel was in fact German in 1914.

4) I've seen many different maps of Arabia. Medina and Mecka are provinces of the Hedjaz which is an Ottoman puppet. The same with Sana which belongs to Yemen, which also is a puppet. Kuwait was informally a protectorate of Britain since 1899. Al Zahran (the state of al-Hasa) was annexed by Najd in 1913 according to my sources.

5) The main part of the desert was probably considered Najd territory, but the British controlled the "important" parts, Qatar (from 1916), Abu Dhabi and Dubai. The Imamate of Oman was independent since 1913 but wasn't recognized by the Sultan.

6) Not according to my maps.

7) Not according to my maps.

8) No, they were independent.

/Johan

 

[Leprechaun]

Hmmm

Germany should own Metz.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Re: Hmmm

Originally posted by Leprechaun
Germany should own Metz.

Yes, the Germans possessed the city, but most of the province was French, thus the decision to make the territory French. Also if it was given to Germany then Germany would unhistorically surround Luxembourg on three sides.

 

[Johan Elisson]

Leprechaun, read my answer in the other thread at the main forum. shdwknightx has written one of the reasons to make it French.

/Johan

 

[Exel]

Originally posted by Johan Elisson
1) Finland did not have control of Petsamo at the time (1914). It is though possible that I've made a fault when giving the Eastern Karelia provinces to Finland. Finland is a puppet of Russia to "simulate" their semi-independency.

Yeah, you're right about Petsamo. But other than that Finland should be what it is in HoI 1936 and 1939 scenarios. I'm fine with the puppet-thing simulating autonomy, but still Finland should become independent in 1917 (and have it's civil war). Finland should gain Petsamo in 1920.

2) The city of Kolding was actually still Danish 1914, but this is not the main reason, it is to prevent Germany from entering the island of Fyn (Odense in the game) directly.

No, it was German in 1914 before the war. And so what if they can go directly to that island? You don't give Åland/Ahvenanmaa to Sweden just because the Finns can come directly to Stockholm via it.

3) Memel was in fact German in 1914.

Germany might have owned the city and port (maybe 1% of the province), but the province itself belonged to Russia.

4) I've seen many different maps of Arabia. Medina and Mecka are provinces of the Hedjaz which is an Ottoman puppet. The same with Sana which belongs to Yemen, which also is a puppet. Kuwait was informally a protectorate of Britain since 1899. Al Zahran (the state of al-Hasa) was annexed by Najd in 1913 according to my sources.

Okay, if they are Ottoman puppets then it's okay.

5) The main part of the desert was probably considered Najd territory, but the British controlled the "important" parts, Qatar (from 1916), Abu Dhabi and Dubai. The Imamate of Oman was independent since 1913 but wasn't recognized by the Sultan.

At least according to my pre-WW1 maps Abu Dhabi and Muscat are part of Arabia.

6) Not according to my maps.

7) Not according to my maps.

Okay, if you are sure. My maps may be a little inaccurate. I'd still suggest you check this.

8) No, they were independent.

Okay.

 

[Exel]

Re: Re: Hmmm

Originally posted by shdwknightx
Yes, the Germans possessed the city, but most of the province was French, thus the decision to make the territory French.

This is exactly the same reason why Memel should belong to Russia instead of Germany.

 

[Johan Elisson]

1) Finland will become independent only if there is a Russian revolution. And that might not happen.

2) I'm 100 % sure that the city of Kolding was Danish in 1914. I know that Germany owned large parts of Sönderjylland from 1864 to 1920, but Kolding was still Danish. The main reason though is to give Denmark only two provinces instead of three to defend in case that Germany will attack them. I've heard a rumuor that you can change province connections, but I haven't been able to do so. If it is possible, tell me how, and I'll give Kolding to Germany.

3) The province of Memel was badly mis-shaped in HoI, probably to give you something to "click on". There is no negative effects on giving Memel to Germany. Rather the positive effect of giving them a bridgehead north of the river Memel that they also had.

4) Yep.

5) It is hard to find good 1914-maps for Arabia. Check this map at www.worldstatesmen.org.

6), 7) Check this map or search for map africa 1914 at www.google.com.

8) Yep.

/Johan

 

[Exel]

1) Finland declared itself independent, and would have done so in any case, sooner or later. But when it goes to ahistorical paths its all ahistorical anyway. So I'm fine with that.

2) Well again the city of Kolding might have been Danish, but the same thing that goes with Metz applies here too. Most of the province was under German control, and to model this with any historical accuracy you have to give the province to Germany. Like that the Danes can get it for themselves after the war, as happened historically.

3) I know the Memel province is far from what it should be, but I'd still opt for giving it to Russia...

 

[Johan Elisson]

1) Good.

2) Well, as said earlier, the main thing is not about how much was owned by who, but about gameplay matters. The reason to give Metz to France was not mainly about how much of the province that Germany owned, but about gameplay. Therefore, I don't really care much about how large area of the Kolding province that Germany owned, but more about the fact that Germany shouldn't be able to attack Denmark's three (if Kolding would be German) provinces at once. The same applies to Thessaloniki being Bulgarian even if they owned less of that province than Greece, and giving Qingdao to Germany even if they only controlled the city.

3) Any special reasons?

/Johan

 

[Exel]

Originally posted by Johan Elisson
2) Well, as said earlier, the main thing is not about how much was owned by who, but about gameplay matters. The reason to give Metz to France was not mainly about how much of the province that Germany owned, but about gameplay. Therefore, I don't really care much about how large area of the Kolding province that Germany owned, but more about the fact that Germany shouldn't be able to attack Denmark's three (if Kolding would be German) provinces at once. The same applies to Thessaloniki being Bulgarian even if they owned less of that province than Greece, and giving Qingdao to Germany even if they only controlled the city.

It does matter what is owned by whom. That's the whole point of the game! The province didn't belong to Denmark at that point, nor should it belong in TGW: it's ahistorical. Denmark got the province after the war (in Versailles agreement?), and so be it in the game as well. And to your argument about Germany attacking to all Danish provinces at the same time... well, that's what would have pretty much happened if they had attacked (look what happened in WW2). Like said, you don't give Åland to Sweden just because Finland has a path to Stockholm from there. And besides, how long do you think Denmark could have fought back anyway?

3) Any special reasons?

No other than the landmass actually belonging to Russia...

/Johan

 

[Kaiser Bill]

Excel,

I think you should give Elisson some slack here. As he says there are some historical feratures which have to give way to gameplay. And some other historical features which have to give way to the preservation of historical accuracy. The Metz arguement, for example, is a clear illustration of that point.

It should also be noted that we all want to get on with this mod. and get it to a beta version. Lets just get it up and running and then argue about the small change. We all have jobs and classes etc.. and the more time we spend squabbling, the less positive work gets done. Like you, I have lots of niggling points to take up about technology and the economic make up of the map for example, but I am shelving these issues until we have a working model.

 

[Johan Elisson]

Excel, so you think that Greece should get the Thessaloniki province, and thus giving them a border to the Ottoman Empire that they didn't have, only because they own more of that province?

Well, I'd rather have good gameplay than a perfect map, which can't be done even with your changes since there are a lot of inconsistencies between the HoI map and a map from 1914 that can't be fixed in any way.

/Johan

 

[Exel]

First of all it's Exel, not Excel (I'm not a cheap Micro$oft product).

Now to the point. I agree there is plenty of more important things to do, and of course first things come first, but you shouln't ignore the map (or anything else for that matter) just because of that.

I wouldn't give Thessaloniki to Greece, because that would result in a very ahistorical situation. But giving Kolding to Germany doesn't cause one, on the contrary it fixes one. No matter how you look your pre-WW1 maps, Kolding belongs to Germany; Denmark gained it only after the war. That's a point that IMO can't be contradicted by any gameplay or historical arguments, as there is no real gameplay issue here.

 

[Johan Elisson]

I've already pointed out the gameplay issue. And since the game (probably) is going to end before we get to see any Versailles treaty, there is really no point in giving it to Germany except if you want to give them an ahistorical advantageous position.

I don't see what you fix by giving Kolding to Germany except moving their border more north into Denmark than they originally had it?

/Johan

 

[Exel]

German border was very north before the war. But what does giving Kolding to Germany change in matters of game play? If Germany attacks Denmark, they will annex it within days wether they hold Kolding in the first place or not. The only point here is historical accuracy, and that says "give Kolding to Germany".

 

[Johan Elisson]

Well... Let me think...














No.

If you think like that, shouldn't we also give Luxemburg to Germany and all the German colonies to i.e. France and UK since all those places will be conquered pretty quick also?

/Johan

 

[Allenby]

If I remember correctly from browsing, the question as to whether Kolding should be Danish or German took up about six pages on the original TGW thread - not too keen for a repeat performance

A side note: campaigning in the Middle East showed how the lack of infrastructure hindered movement, especially in Mesopotamia and across the Sinai desert. Have territories in these regions had their infrastructure depreciated to reflect this?

 

[irishpony]

BEST COMEBACK EVER !!!!!!!!

good job on those screens ellison and the crown units are shock
troops right

allenby it should show that but it shouldnt be so low so there are a multitude of "THE DESERT DEATHMARCH" headlines on the local newspaper

 

[Johan Elisson]

Originally posted by Allenby
If I remember correctly from browsing, the question as to whether Kolding should be Danish or German took up about six pages on the original TGW thread - not too keen for a repeat performance [...]

Yeah, all this talking about provinces would certainly be the longest thread in the forum history if those posts would be gathered in one thread... I'm pretty tired of it.

The crown troops are as said in the description under the picture grenadier divisions / guards divsions / elite divisions.

/Johan