Improving the Scandinavian experience by having Danish dynamic names - a suggestion

[Wagonlitz]

So @Trin Tragula suggested I made a thread suggesting dynamic province names. As far as I can see there are no Danish province names in game already.
Since this obviously is a huge task I will do it in several small bites; other people chiming in would be appreciated too. Given that the sources also give names in other language I will suggest those too.
The sources I will be using are the Atlas of Frederik V of Denmark. It is a huge world atlas with 3535 charts distributed over 55 volumes. Most of those charts are maps. Those are in many languages meaning that you can see the names used in those languages at the time the maps were made. Frederik V died 14.1.1766 and most maps are from the first half of the 1700s, but there are older ones too---some even much older. I will be naming that source FV.
http://images.kb.dk/fr5atlas/

The other source is Geographie til Ungdommens Brug, 5th edition, Christian Sommerfelt, Copenhagen, 1797. As seen it is by semi famous Christian Sommerfelt who was a really skilled geographer and many other things. Among other people the famous Carsten Niebuhr also helped Sommerfelt in getting the names of places. I will call that source CS.

Another source is Matthias Moth. Matthias Moth was one of the closest advisors to Christian V and he was also highly interested in knowledge. Around 1700 he made a giant dictionary covering the entirety of Danish as it was back then. No word was too obscene or obscure. It also includes Icelandic, Faroese, and Norwegian words.
He also had an encyclopedia be part of the dictionary (because why not). It's something like 60 tomes in total. His work has been digitised by the Danish Language and Literature Association here: http://mothsordbog.dk/



@Trin Tragula do you need province numbers too, or is mentioning their name enough?

Back in the day dashes weren't used in Danish and places where you would have a dash would have an = instead. I have kept using that, since it firstly is what CS uses and it is the authentic thing to do.

For CS some names have a previous name noted in parenthesis. I will note those too. A few times two names are mentioned; I will separate those by commas.
Here we go:
1775 Holstein -> Holsteen. CS
2348 Chios -> Scio (Chius). CS
382 Damascus -> Damâsk (Damascus). CS
378 Tarabulus -> Trábulos (Tripolis i Syrien). CS
1855 Sidon -> Seide (Sidon). CS
405 Tadmor -> Palmyra. CS
377 Aleppo -> Háleb, Aleppo, (Chalybon). CS
2313 Antioch -> Antâki (Antiochia). CS
331 Erzurum -> Ærzerûm (Arze). CS
418 Diyarbakir -> Diarbekr (Amid). CS
409 Hillah -> Helle. CS
410 Baghdad -> Bagdád. CS
408 Basra -> Básra. CS
385 Mecca -> Mékke. CS
384 Medina -> Medîne. CS
2329 Yanbu -> Jâmbo. CS
2331 Jeddah -> Dsjidda. CS
390 Sana'a -> Saná. CS
388 Aden -> Aden (Arabia emporium). CS
400 Muscat -> Maskát (Moscha). CS
1201 Zanzibar -> Zansjibar. CS
1205 Mogadishu -> Mokadischu. CS
2258 Cape Coast -> Cap Coast. CS
1177 Cape -> Got=Haabs=Forbierg. CS. Its capital should be Cap=Staden in case province capitals are dynamic too.

There is the question of the Danish colonies in India and Africa.
In India we had Trankebar and Frediriksnagôr. As far as I can see Trankebar lies within what is the Tanjore province in game. Hence Tanjore should be called Trankebar when Danish.
Frederiksnagôr is what is called Serampore these days. I think it lies in the province of Bengal Delta meaning that Bengal Delta should be called Frederiksnagôr when Danish.

2026 Tanjore -> Trankebar. CS
561 Bengal Delta -> Frederiksnagôr. CS

There also are the colonies in Africa. These all were placed on the Gold Coast and were Christiansborg, Fredensborg, Kongsteen, Prindsensteen, and Augustaborg. As far as I can see Prindsensteen is just inside Whydah. Of the others they all lie within Gold Coast. Christiansborg was the biggest and oldest, so it must give the name. So:

1139 Gold Coast -> Christiansborg. CS
1141 Whydah -> Prindsensteen. CS

If deemed desirable other West African coastal provinces (provinces without any Danish name) could be named after the other forts. While not historical it would give flavour---and those three unused fort names were used for West African possessions IRL so who knows if they would also have been used if the fort with that name was placed somewhere else on the West African coast.

That's it for now.


Addition on the 21st of Marts.

So I did another stint in finding dynamic names. Like before I only looked in CS this time.

Lets look at the British Isles. I haven't spent much time on Scotland, since I am not sure exactly how provinces change there with Mare Nostrum.

369 Orkey -> Ørkenøerne, Orkneys (Orcades). CS

As far as I have been able to see the only change to England is the addition of Devon.

236 London -> Middlsex. CS
233 Cornwall -> Kaarnwæll. CS
Devon -> Dewon=Shiire. CS (Ended up not getting in; should it ever be added then here is the Danish name for it.)
243 Lincolnshire -> Lincoln=Shiire. CS
237 Oxfordshire -> Oxford=Shiire. CS
239 Gloucestershire -> Gloster=Shiire. CS
1861 Derbyshire -> Derbe=Shiire. CS
247 Yorkshire -> York=Shiire. CS
249 Cumbria -> Cumberland. CS
244 Lancashire -> Pfalzgrevskabet Lænkæster, Lancashire. CS
242 Gwynedd -> Nord=Wæles. CS
241 Glamorganshire -> Syd=Wæles. CS
243 Wessex -> Westsex. CS

Then there is the question of the province of Marches (province 240). For obvious reasons that isn't directly referred to in CS. The direct translation would be Markerne. That could be used if the concept of the Welsch Marches is to be preserved. Otherwise it consists of 5 shires as far as I can see. Staffordshire, Shropshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire, and Warwickshire. If the name is chosen to follow one of those shires, then here is the names given in CS.

Herefordshire -> Hereford=Shiire. CS
Shropshire -> Shrop=Shiire. CS
Staffordshire -> Stafford=Shiire. CS
Worcestershire -> Vorster=Shiire. CS
Warwickshire -> Warrik=Shiire. CS

Of those 5 shires Herefordshire is deemed so unimportant by CS that it doesn't get a detailed description, but just is mentioned in the tally of the shires of England.
If Markerne isn't used, I don't know which shire the name should be based on.




@Trin Tragula could would it be possible for you to give me a screenshot of Lithuania with province names visible? Otherwise I will have to wait until Mare Nostrum releases to do anything about Lithuania. Anyway there are a few things in the Baltics I am confident about not having changed.

35 Ösel -> Øsel. CS
37 Livland -> Lifland. CS
36 Reval -> Revalske Statholderskab. CS (This one is a bit icy. On one side Narva was part of Revalske Statholderskab; on the other side CS makes a point about Narva being unimportant compared to what is Reval in game. And just calling it Reval seems wrong too when there is an actual name for the province and the province did contain much more than just the city of Reval. So I think it can be defended to have the in game province of Reval called Revalske Statholderskab despite not including Narva.)



Now lets look a bit on Western Prussia:

255 Kalisz -> Gnesen, Gniesna. CS
43 Danzig -> Danzig. CS (just pointing out that it is Danzig and not Gdansk.)
2963 Notec -> Netzeland, Netz=Districtet. CS
254 Poznan -> Posen. CS
256 Plock -> Plozk. CS
1859 Chelmno -> Culm. CS
1939 Leczyca -> Lentschiza. CS
262 Krakow -> Krakov (Cracovia, Carodunum). CS
257 Warszawa -> Warschava, Varschau, (Varsaria). CS

I'm going to stop here for now.


Additions from the 12th of April.

So I got a little time this morning.

@Trin Tragula do I need to ping you every time I update or have you subscribed to the thread and if so do you then actively read it?



Well firstly there is a correction to the English names. When writing them Mare Nostrum hadn't yet released and I thought that the new province around Cornwall was Devon. Turned out to be Somerset.

I will leave the name for Devon in in case it ever is added.

4130 Somerset -> Sommerset. CS


On to the North then.

1979 Färöarna -> Færøerne. CS
17 Akershus -> Aggershuus, Christiania. CS
24 Agder -> Christiansand. CS
315 Finnmark -> Finmarken. CS
1 Stockholm -> Stokholm. CS
1985 Närke -> Nerike. CS
2 Östergötland -> Øster=Gøtland. CS
7 Västergötland -> Vester=Gøtland. CS
5 Värmland -> Værmeland. CS
6 Skåne -> Skaane. CS
1982 Blekinge -> Bleking. CS
3 Småland -> Smaaland. CS
16 Bohuslän -> Bahuslehn, Bohuslæn. CS (Does anybody know if this is a mutilation of the pre 1658 name?)


20 Trøndelag -> Trondheim. CS (I am a bit ambivalent on this, since while it was Trondheim in CS I am pretty sure it has been called Trøndelag in Danish at least until the loss of Skåneland. Do any of you have an idea here @Quaade @radiatoren?)

Don't have time for more now.



So the section on the old North mentions Trandheim and Trondelagen as the two equivalent names for Trøndelag back in the old North. As far as I remember lagen means law in Old Norse---i.e. Trondelagen being under the law of Tronde (whoever that is) (unless I am completely mistaken). An equivalent would be Danelagen.

Anyway it appears that Trondelagen was an archaic name in 1797 and Trondheim the then current one. Though when that changed I don't know.

I think having it as Trøndelag (or Trondelagen which appears more appropriate) when under Norway and Trondheim when under Denmark could make sense to show the change in naming convention. Though I don't know. It sure is a hard province name to decide on. Though if Trøndelag is used in Danish then I think it should be Trondelagen given that is how CS writes it. Though it is a good question if there actually was a vowel change in the name or CS wanted to write it in the old style with a miniscule e over the o instead of using an ø and the e then wasn't printed (he used the miniscule e version for some of the Swedish names for some bizarre reason). But given he has been dead in something like 200 years we obviously can't ask, so if he is used it should probably be Trondelagen with an o, since that was what he wrote.


Anyway lets continue with Scandinavia.

21 Hålogaland -> Nordlandene. CS (If somebody else is looking in CS too then this mentioned in the section about the Old North. By the way this should definitely be changed for Norwegian too. Whether it should be Nordlandene or Haalogaland (or possibly even Halogaland as in Old Norse) I don't know, but given å (the letter, not the sound) didn't exist in Norwegian until 1917, the letter å has no place in Norwegian names in game. The same goes for Danish names where å didn't exist as a letter until 1948.)
10 Jämtland -> Jæmtland. CS (Jämtland seems sketchy for the Norwegian name given Norway uses æ and not ä. @Sleepyhead wasn't there something about Jämtland being called something else in Norwegian?)
9 Hälsingland -> Hælsingeland. CS
11 Västerbotten-> Vesterboten. CS
27 Åbo -> Aabo= og Biørneborg=Lehn, Finland. CS
19 Österbotten -> Østerbotn, Uleaaborg Landshøvdingedømme. CS
31 Savolax -> Savolax, Kuopio. CS (With Kuopio only becoming noteworthy in the really late game, as CS also notes by saying it is a new town, I think keeping it as Savolax is the best of the two possibilities.)
1930 Åland -> Aaland. CS
4124 Karelia -> Karelen. CS

4123 Pirkanmaa. Now this one is a bit of a problem, since the area was part of Åbo and not in any way noteworthy given CS doesn't mention a thing about that part of the county. (Now I wonder how such an unimportant piece of land warranted a province...

)
Anyway due to it not being an independent administrative unit and being unimportant CS doesn't give any name. The Finnish name obviously is ruled out as a plausible name, since there is no way a Denmark having taken Finland would use Finnish names. The Swedish name is Birkaland which as far as I can see refers back to the Scandinavian word birk (to the Danes: it is the administrative unit, not the tree, we talk about here) which was a really old administrative unit independent of the shires. If I am correct that the etymology of Birkaland is land of the birks then the Danish name obviously would be Birkeland.
So lacking any sources on this except common knowledge about ancient administrative units I would propose Birkeland. And if that isn't used then using the Swedish Birkaland. While not correct it is much less wrong than using a Finnish name.

With regard to Lappland, Jokkmokk and especially Rovaniemi then I don't know. Lappland was divided into 6 chiefdoms when CS wrote (Åsele, Uleå, Piteå, Luleå, Torneå, and Kiemi); I think Kiemi is Kemi, but not certain. Using the names of these Lapp divisions (Aasele=Lapmark, Uleaa=Lapmark, Piteaa=Lapmark, Luleaa=Lapmark, Torneaa=Lapmark, Kiemi=Lapmark) for the three Lappland provinces (Lappland, Jokkmokk, Rovaniemi) would make sense, but I don't know which should be given what name.
Does anybody know this?
Rovaniemi might very well be Kiemi=Lapmark though, since CS mentions this Lapp division to be administered together with Österbotten. But I don't know.

Speaking of the Lapps then CS is a goldmine of statements which are funny due to being horribly un PC these days. This is written under Lappland: "Indbyggerne bekiende sig til den Christelige Religion, ere og forsynede med Kirker og Præster, men ere dog ikke frie for Levninger af grov Overtroe."

45 Lübeck -> Lybek, Lübeck. CS
44 Hamburg -> Hamborg. CS writes Hamburg, but that most likely is him using the German name due to the strong presence German had i the 1700s. As can be seen from this excert from the list of consumption for Tycho Brahe's wedding in 1503 it was called Hamborg 500 years ago just as it is today. The source is a site on Danish history run by Aarhus University.
"Item, 2. Tønner Hamborg Øll, Tønnen VI. Marck. "

296 Kaluga -> Kolugiske Statholderskab. CS
295 Moskva -> Moscau, Moskva. CS
294 Tver -> Tveerske Statholderskab. CS
308 Yaroslavl -> Jaroslavlske Statholderskab. CS
310 Novgorod -> Novgorodiske Statholderskab. CS
314 Vologda -> Vologda Statholderskab. CS
306 Nizhny Novgorod -> Nischgorodske Statholderskab, Nischnei=Novgorodske Statholderskab. CS





Additions on November 10th 2016:

4149 Kolding -> Koldinghus.
4141 Ditmarschen -> Ditmersken; alternatively Dytmersken.

Arguments found in this post.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Will keep updating the OP as I or others add more Danish names.

 

[Wagonlitz]

@Quaade, @radiatoren if you know of any Danish names for in game provinces then this is the thread.

Also there is the question of Blekinge. While Blekinge is the old Danish name, it would most likely have evolved into Blegind had it stayed Danish given how there was a k->g and a g->d shift. Don't know if Blekinge had already started changing by 1658. Also not sure if it is desirable to use Blegind instead of Blekinge.

 

[radiatoren]

Actually I would restart a controversy:
"Nordjylland" and "Midtjylland" are modern names with very little historical backing.
A bit of history: Denmark has historically been divided into areas called "syssel". The area stretching from Konge Aaen and north as a whole was called "Nørrejylland" and contained 11 such "syssel"s. The division in game is approximately: Nordjylland = Vendsyssel, Thysyssel, Sallingsyssel, Himmersyssel and about half of Hardsyssel. Midtjylland = Ommersyssel, Åbosyssel, Loversyssel, Vardesyssel, Jellingsyssel, Almindsyssel and half of Hardsyssel. I would argue for Hardsyssel moving to the "Midtjylland"-region, which would require some small changes to the border-drawing.

The naming: In "Midtjylland", Viborg, Denmarks capital untill the beginning of the games period was in "Ommersyssel". Therefore that would be a natural name. However, that may be too obscure for most modern people. Maybe calling it Nørrejylland is not a bad idea?

Today Vendsyssel has become the name for basically anything north of Limfjorden. As such the natural naming would be to call "Nordjylland", "Vendsyssel".

Primary source:
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Administrative_division_of_denmark_in_medieval_times.jpg

 

[Wagonlitz]

Actually I would restart a controversy:

What controversy?

"Nordjylland" and "Midtjylland" are modern names with very little historical backing.

So much this; though the provinces themselves are really unrealistic and unhistorical with how eastern and western Jutland is lumped together. It looks like they just went with the current administrative borders... See this thread:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...king-denmark-more-viable-a-suggestion.913122/

A bit of history: Denmark has historically been divided into areas called "syssel". The area stretching from Konge Aaen and north as a whole was called "Nørrejylland" and contained 11 such "syssel"s. The division in game is approximately: Nordjylland = Vendsyssel, Thysyssel, Sallingsyssel, Himmersyssel and about half of Hardsyssel. Midtjylland = Ommersyssel, Åbosyssel, Loversyssel, Vardesyssel, Jellingsyssel, Almindsyssel and half of Hardsyssel. I would argue for Hardsyssel moving to the "Midtjylland"-region, which would require some small changes to the border-drawing.

The naming: In "Midtjylland", Viborg, Denmarks capital untill the beginning of the games period was in "Ommersyssel". Therefore that would be a natural name. However, that may be too obscure for most modern people. Maybe calling it Nørrejylland is not a bad idea?

Today Vendsyssel has become the name for basically anything north of Limfjorden. As such the natural naming would be to call "Nordjylland", "Vendsyssel".

Primary source:
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Administrative_division_of_denmark_in_medieval_times.jpg

I am not sure that using the syssler is a good idea; it gives some good, distinct names sure, but as far as I am aware they had been phased out in 1444 in favour of len---or at least were close to. At least from the 1500s you only hear about the len. Just looked at wiki and apparently they only completely disappeared at the reformation in 1536; though had lost most of their importance throughout the Middle Ages. So I would still say that I think they are too old fashioned; though if e.g. Viborg in 1444 would have said it was placed in Ommersyssel and not Viborghus Len (or whatever len covered Viborg at that time) it could be used I guess.

Also how is Ommersyssel too obscure? There even is some transport company using it. Plus we shouldn't shy away from using obscure names; that will just make people learn old names. Heck several of the names in CS might be obscure to many people; and that is only 219 years old; would you for instance be able to tell me where Negerkysterne were?

Also calling what is now Midtjylland a single syssel name is weird; same goes for Nordjylland. In principle I don't have much against Nørrejylland; the big problem being that Nørrejylland is everything north of Kongeåen, so calling Midtjylland Nørrejylland and Nordjylland Vendsyssel seems wrong. Similarly calling Nordjylland Vendsyssel seems wrong; sure it is called that these days (though is Thy actually called Vendsyssel by those living up there?), but that doesn't change that it would be a huge eyesore to those of us knowing the correct borders of Nørrejylland and Sønderjylland (Sønderjylland doesn't end at the border; Sønderjylland and Slesvig are two names for the exact same area. Also using Sønderjylland in game would be hugely anachronistic, since from around the 1300s and until the nationalism of the late 1700s/early 1800s Sønderjylland wasn't really used.)

I would propose calling Midtjylland Nørrejylland; and Nordjylland Nørrejyske Ø. Then you don't get any eyesores; neither the present ones nor that with Vendsyssel and Nørrejylland.



Though preferably they give Denmark a few more provinces as proposed in the linked thread, and Jutland gets split up in more realistic pieces; and we can get that iron production in Jutland which was significant historically.

 

[radiatoren]

What controversy?

So much this; though the provinces themselves are really unrealistic and unhistorical with how eastern and western Jutland is lumped together. It looks like they just went with the current administrative borders... See this thread:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...king-denmark-more-viable-a-suggestion.913122/
I am not sure that using the syssler is a good idea; it gives some good, distinct names sure, but as far as I am aware they had been phased out in 1444 in favour of len---or at least were close to. At least from the 1500s you only hear about the len. Just looked at wiki and apparently they only completely disappeared at the reformation in 1536; though had lost most of their importance throughout the Middle Ages. So I would still say that I think they are too old fashioned; though if e.g. Viborg in 1444 would have said it was placed in Ommersyssel and not Viborghus Len (or whatever len covered Viborg at that time) it could be used I guess.

Also how is Ommersyssel too obscure? There even is some transport company using it. Plus we shouldn't shy away from using obscure names; that will just make people learn old names. Heck several of the names in CS might be obscure to many people; and that is only 219 years old; would you for instance be able to tell me where Negerkysterne were?

Also calling what is now Midtjylland a single syssel name is weird; same goes for Nordjylland. In principle I don't have much against Nørrejylland; the big problem being that Nørrejylland is everything north of Kongeåen, so calling Midtjylland Nørrejylland and Nordjylland Vendsyssel seems wrong. Similarly calling Nordjylland Vendsyssel seems wrong; sure it is called that these days (though is Thy actually called Vendsyssel by those living up there?), but that doesn't change that it would be a huge eyesore to those of us knowing the correct borders of Nørrejylland and Sønderjylland (Sønderjylland doesn't end at the border; Sønderjylland and Slesvig are two names for the exact same area. Also using Sønderjylland in game would be hugely anachronistic, since from around the 1300s and until the nationalism of the late 1700s/early 1800s Sønderjylland wasn't really used.)

I would propose calling Midtjylland Nørrejylland; and Nordjylland Nørrejyske Ø. Then you don't get any eyesores; neither the present ones nor that with Vendsyssel and Nørrejylland.



Though preferably they give Denmark a few more provinces as proposed in the linked thread, and Jutland gets split up in more realistic pieces; and we can get that iron production in Jutland which was significant historically.

Sønderjylland is in fact a bit anachronistic since it was an older or newer name! But finding a good appropriate name for it in a period with such border-gore, as was the case, is itself a bit tricky.

As for calling the area Nørrejyske Ø I see the exact same problem as with Sønderjylland: Limfjorden was in fact a fjord during the period, which is why we have the misleading name today! Nørrejyske Ø was not an island (ø) in this period! So we are basically exchanging in eyesores or anachronisms!

Edited in comment: Also, len are a bit smaller units with 49 to above 200. While having them as a reference could be fun, I would rather use older terminology as to avoid confusion and oversimplification. Much like the swedes do with their landskap in contrast to laen.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Sønderjylland is in fact a bit anachronistic since it was an older or newer name! But finding a good appropriate name for it in a period with such border-gore, as was the case, is itself a bit tricky.

I know it is older which I also think I stated. But as mentioned from around the 1300s and until the rise of nationalism Sønderjylland was exclusively called Slesvig. So there isn't much discussion of what the name should be; unless you start dividing the current Slesvig province; which I think is a really really bad idea, since as you also hinted at it was a complete mess which would lead to either completely wrong borders or border gore par excellence.

As for calling the area Nørrejyske Ø I see the exact same problem as with Sønderjylland: Limfjorden was in fact a fjord during the period, which is why we have the misleading name today! Nørrejyske Ø was not an island (ø) in this period! So we are basically exchanging in eyesores or anachronisms!

Good point; and it is a bit embarrasing that I have spent considerable time in the thread about giving Denmark more provinces argueing that you shouldn't be able to cross from Vestjylland to Thy, since while Agger Tange wasn't breached until around 1828 it still wasn't really feasible to cross with an army. So I have egg on my face for that one.

Though I guess you could call it Nørrejyske Halvø; though that name probably never has been used; don't know. My point was that calling Midtjylland Nørrejylland and Nordjylland Vendsyssel would be around as bad as the current Midtjylland and Nordjylland.

Edited in comment: Also, len are a bit smaller units with 49 to above 200. While having them as a reference could be fun, I would rather use older terminology as to avoid confusion and oversimplification. Much like the swedes do with their landskap in contrast to laen.

Some len were large though---e.g. Aalborghus Len which actually covered a larger area than the later Aalborghus Amt. And the syssler were small too. But yes neither are particularly fitting; just like having half of Nørrejylland named after a particular len is problematic then so is having half of Nørrejylland named after a particular syssel. Though if PI does add some more provinces which I really hope (since that would most likely lead to more realistic outcomes instead of the Swedish steamroller) then this discussion about syssler and len becomes somewhat moot, since then names like Østjylland, Midtjylland, and Vestjylland would become fitting.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Thanks

I'm also following the discussion here. Ive never really liked that we use so modern divisions of Jutland as provinces either but I can't make any promises on that part.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Thanks

I'm also following the discussion here. Ive never really liked that we use so modern divisions of Jutland as provinces either but I can't make any promises on that part.

Hopefully it is useful what we provide. I am currently doing another stint with CS. This time I am looking at the British Isles; though it goes slow since firstly I need to crosscheck with the game to find out what actually is in the game and secondly writing off of CS is a bitch. As an aside I just noticed there is a bit of dirt on the first page about Ireland; that piece of dirt literally could be 100 years old (or 219 years); old books are fun.


Anyway hopefully something can be done to Jutland. As mentioned in the other thread then having Midtjylland as a thin slice between Østjylland and Vestjylland as in the first proposal in the OP makes most sense, though it might not be possible computationally wise.
And as mentioned in the other thread having a Jutlandic province which covers both the east and east coast makes zilch sense historically; except for Slesvig to some degree.


Also if you use any of these dynamic names what do you then do when there are multiple names/older names?
As mentioned I write down all the names CS names, but some obviously makes more sense than others. Though luckily most of the time he only mentions one name.

Also I think you missed my question: Did you want province numbers too, or is it fine the way I am doing it?
Also with regard to the times when there is older names I am not sure whether or not to use them. Sometimes it might make sense, whereas others it doesn't. What do others think? Using Tripolis i Syrien instead of Trábulos for instance would feel more Danish, but on the other hand I have no idea when Tripolis i Syrien was last used. Some of the older names are directly Latin and in those cases I think that the new form should be used.
For others like Orkney the then present name, Ørkenøerne, obviously should be used.

 

[radiatoren]

I know it is older which I also think I stated. But as mentioned from around the 1300s and until the rise of nationalism Sønderjylland was exclusively called Slesvig. So there isn't much discussion of what the name should be; unless you start dividing the current Slesvig province; which I think is a really really bad idea, since as you also hinted at it was a complete mess which would lead to either completely wrong borders or border gore par excellence.

Good point; and it is a bit embarrasing that I have spent considerable time in the thread about giving Denmark more provinces argueing that you shouldn't be able to cross from Vestjylland to Thy, since while Agger Tange wasn't breached until around 1828 it still wasn't really feasible to cross with an army. So I have egg on my face for that one.

Though I guess you could call it Nørrejyske Halvø; though that name probably never has been used; don't know. My point was that calling Midtjylland Nørrejylland and Nordjylland Vendsyssel would be around as bad as the current Midtjylland and Nordjylland.

Some len were large though---e.g. Aalborghus Len which actually covered a larger area than the later Aalborghus Amt. And the syssler were small too. But yes neither are particularly fitting; just like having half of Nørrejylland named after a particular len is problematic then so is having half of Nørrejylland named after a particular syssel. Though if PI does add some more provinces which I really hope (since that would most likely lead to more realistic outcomes instead of the Swedish steamroller) then this discussion about syssler and len becomes somewhat moot, since then names like Østjylland, Midtjylland, and Vestjylland would become fitting.

Everyone can be wrong from time to time and stubbornly taking a stance is far easier than taking the eggs. Admitting a mistake is very trustworthy and something most (myself included) should aspire to do more often.

Adding one extra province to Jylland is not an unreasonable request. Making it ØstJylland, Vestjylland with most of Midtjylland according to your map as part of Vestjylland isn't unreasonable at all. Trade in myremalm extended well into the moor even if the areas were rather hostile for farmers. As for adding even more provinces, I am a bit more hesitant. Fyn, is a bit to the meager side in terms of province size. If anything else needs to be done, the Sjælland province could be split in two. The Copenhagen area and the north-east of Sjælland was very well developed, and fortified. The rest was a lot less so.

 

[Wagonlitz]

So I did another stint in finding dynamic names. Like before I only looked in CS this time.

Lets look at the British Isles. I haven't spent much time on Scotland, since I am not sure exactly how provinces change there with Mare Nostrum.

Orkey -> Ørkenøerne, Orkneys (Orcades). CS

As far as I have been able to see the only change to England is the addition of Devon.

London -> Middlsex. CS
Cornwall -> Kaarnwæll. CS
Devon -> Dewon=Shiire. CS
Lincolnshire -> Lincoln=Shiire. CS
Oxfordshire -> Oxford=Shiire. CS
Gloucestershire -> Gloster=Shiire. CS
Derbyshire -> Derbe=Shiire. CS
Yorkshire -> York=Shiire. CS
Cumbria -> Cumberland. CS
Lancashire -> Pfalzgrevskabet Lænkæster, Lancashire. CS
Gwynedd -> Nord=Wæles. CS
Glamorganshire -> Syd=Wæles. CS
Wessex -> Westsex. CS

Then there is the question of the province of Marches. For obvious reasons that isn't directly referred to in CS. The direct translation would be Markerne. That could be used if the concept of the Welsch Marches is to be preserved. Otherwise it consists of 5 shires as far as I can see. Staffordshire, Shropshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire, and Warwickshire. If the name is chosen to follow one of those shires, then here is the names given in CS.

Herefordshire -> Hereford=Shiire. CS
Shropshire -> Shrop=Shiire. CS
Staffordshire -> Stafford=Shiire. CS
Worcestershire -> Vorster=Shiire. CS
Warwickshire -> Warrik=Shiire. CS

Of those 5 shires Herefordshire is deemed so unimportant by CS that it doesn't get a detailed description, but just is mentioned in the tally of the shires of England.
If Markerne isn't used, I don't know which shire the name should be based on.




@Trin Tragula would it be possible for you to give me a screenshot of Lithuania with province names visible? Otherwise I will have to wait until Mare Nostrum releases to do anything about Lithuania. Anyway there are a few things in the Baltics I am confident about not having changed.

Ösel -> Øsel. CS
Livland -> Lifland. CS
Reval -> Revalske Statholderskab. CS (This one is a bit icy. On one side Narva was part of Revalske Statholderskab; on the other side CS makes a point about Narva being unimportant compared to what is Reval in game. And just calling it Reval seems wrong too when there is an actual name for the province and the province did contain much more than just the city of Reval. So I think it can be defended to have the in game province of Reval called Revalske Statholderskab despite not including Narva.)



Now lets look a bit on Western Prussia:

Kalisz -> Gnesen, Gniesna. CS
Danzig -> Danzig. CS (just pointing out that it is Danzig and not Gdansk.)
Notec -> Netzeland, Netz=Districtet. CS
Poznan -> Posen. CS
Plock -> Plozk. CS
Chelmno -> Culm. CS
Leczyca -> Lentschiza. CS
Krakow -> Krakov (Cracovia, Carodunum). CS
Warszawa -> Warschava, Varschau, (Varsaria). CS

I'm going to stop here for now.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Adding one extra province to Jylland is not an unreasonable request. Making it ØstJylland, Vestjylland with most of Midtjylland according to your map as part of Vestjylland isn't unreasonable at all. Trade in myremalm extended well into the moor even if the areas were rather hostile for farmers. As for adding even more provinces, I am a bit more hesitant. Fyn, is a bit to the meager side in terms of province size. If anything else needs to be done, the Sjælland province could be split in two. The Copenhagen area and the north-east of Sjælland was very well developed, and fortified. The rest was a lot less so.

I think that Denmark could need those 4 extra provinces. That as mentioned would give some badly needed strategic depth and would make her more comparable with Sweden province wise; and give that historical edge over Sweden development wise until the loss of Skåneland.
Though where you add new provinces is debatable of course. I as mentioned would add three new to Jutland to show how it firstly was wealthy and important back then and how there actually is quite a bit of strategic depth in it.
Also none of the proposed provinces would be that small; not even the one in Southern Fyn. It would still be bigger than Bornholm and provinces of around similar size have been added recently. Splitting Sjælland could work too; that would just give an even smaller province. And Sjælland often was seen as an extension of Copenhagen.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Just remembered this from CS.
@Trin Tragula is it possible to also suggest names for colonial nations?

If so then I just remembered that CS on his treating of Australia mentions several names for it; those were the proposals in the discussion about what to call it. Landene i Sydhavet is what he calls it; the others are the proposals.
Landene i Sydhavet, Magallanica, Polynesien, Australien, Syd=Indien

I would propose having a colonial nation in Australia called "Dansk Syd=Indien" or just "Syd=Indien". Syd=Indien makes sense with how you have Forindien and Bagindien close by, whereas Magallanica only makes sense if you have a Magallan, and Polynesian and Australien seems less flavourful. Landene i Sydhavet could be used I guess, but the impression I get from CS is that that name was somewhat temporary and on the way out.



Is it possible to have dynamic names for areas and regions?

 

[Wagonlitz]

@Trin Tragula since no names were added in the patch does that then mean that it is a waste to propose more? Or were the proposals just too late in development cycle to be included in the patch?

 

[Trin Tragula]

Ive added as much as I could of it but the patch just released was already locked down before I came back from my parental leave a few days ago

 

[Wagonlitz]

Thanks for the information and really nice to hear that things are getting added. That makes me want to continue add names when I have the time for it.
What are you doing in the cases where there are multiple names?

To not call you in the other thread I will ask here: Can you say whether there has been consideration of the proposal for more Danish provinces?
(By the way the situation got worse in the patch, since Sweden gained development and hence now starts out stronger than Denmark which is even more historically wrong than Sweden being on par with Denmark. And the problem of strategic depth of course still is there.)

And congratulations with your child.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Generally I went with the first alternative.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Generally I went with the first alternative.

That seems like a good way to have done it.
The only two provinces where I think the alternatives could be considered better would be Trábulos/Tripolis i Syrien and Netzeland/Netz=Districtet, but I have no idea when the older name for the former went out of use (or how widely used it was) nor which of the latter names was the most widely used ones. So going with the then current name for the former and the one written first in CS for the latter seems reasonable.

 

[Wagonlitz]

So I got a little time this morning.

@Trin Tragula do I need to ping you every time I update or have you subscribed to the thread and if so do you then actively read it?



Well firstly there is a correction to the English names. When writing them Mare Nostrum hadn't yet released and I thought that the new province around Cornwall was Devon. Turned out to be Somerset.

I will leave the name for Devon in in case it ever is added.

Somerset -> Sommerset. CS


On to the North then.

Färöarna -> Færøerne. CS
Akershus -> Aggershuus, Christiania. CS
Agder -> Christiansand. CS
Finnmark -> Finmarken. CS
Stockholm -> Stokholm. CS
Närke -> Nerike. CS
Östergötland -> Øster=Gøtland. CS
Västergötland -> Vester=Gøtland. CS
Värmland -> Værmeland. CS
Skåne -> Skaane. CS
Blekinge -> Bleking. CS
Småland -> Smaaland. CS
Bohuslän -> Bahuslehn, Bohuslæn. CS (Does anybody know if this is a mutilation of the pre 1658 name?)


Trøndelag -> Trondheim. CS (I am a bit ambivalent on this, since while it was Trondheim in CS I am pretty sure it has been called Trøndelag in Danish at least until the loss of Skåneland. Do any of you have an idea here @Quaade @radiatoren?)

Don't have time for more now.

 

[Quaade]

Trøndelag -> Trondheim. CS (I am a bit ambivalent on this, since while it was Trondheim in CS I am pretty sure it has been called Trøndelag in Danish at least until the loss of Skåneland. Do any of you have an idea here @Quaade @radiatoren?)

I´m also more sure of Trøndelag in general speaking, but using Trondheim could be as a respect to Norwegian crown. So using Trøndelag when Denmark de facto owns the province (annexing) would be better in my opinion.

I´m on my way to meeting, hence the short reply